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Ehunter
07-06-2011, 02:25 PM
Well, got to take a close look at a Rytera Seeker last weekend. I didn't shoot it, but did draw it back. I have to say, one of the most awkward looking bows I have ever seen. lol It did hold nicely, and had a smooth draw. I'd have to wait a year or so before I'd ever consider one though. There's alot of things on that bow that need to be time proven. One neat thing about it though, you can change draw length, and brace heigth easily just by moving the handle forwards and backwards. That also presents the problem of changing the brace heigth when you change the draw length though. It is definitely a novel looking bow though.

cjchasman
07-06-2011, 02:42 PM
Ehunter...I'm glad to see someone finally have hands on w/ this bow even though you did not get to shoot it. I sort of get the handle adjustment idea to fit each archer but are there any true advantages over the design of the bow except that it may be fitted to other archers? Maybe that is the whole idea. It sure looks like it has alot of hardware on it...maybe lots of things to keep adjusted; things to go wrong????:confused:

cj

Ehunter
07-06-2011, 02:59 PM
cj, that's exactly my thinking as well. ALOT of nuts and bolts on that thing. Beyond the handle, there's 2 string suppressors, 2 handle bases that can be used as stabilizers, the handle looks like it is basically held on with conduit clamps. This one needs to be time proven, considering the problems of late with the TRG/SOS systems. I did notice it had a cable slide rather than the TRG though. lol

cjchasman
07-06-2011, 03:10 PM
[ I did notice it had a cable slide rather than the TRG though. lol[/QUOTE]

Just when we thought no one was listening. lol

Does anyone own/have shooting expeience w/ this bow?

HawgEnvy
07-06-2011, 03:59 PM
[ I did notice it had a cable slide rather than the TRG though. lol

Just when we thought no one was listening. lol

Does anyone own/have shooting expeience w/ this bow?[/QUOTE]

there's a guy on AT that has one. Do a search there. It's way to fugly for my liking.

Speedykills
07-06-2011, 04:29 PM
cj, that's exactly my thinking as well. ALOT of nuts and bolts on that thing. Beyond the handle, there's 2 string suppressors, 2 handle bases that can be used as stabilizers, the handle looks like it is basically held on with conduit clamps. This one needs to be time proven, considering the problems of late with the TRG/SOS systems. I did notice it had a cable slide rather than the TRG though. lol

onieda ring a bell,i think you guys are over reacting,take a deep breath and suck a cold one down..................;)

Money Man
07-06-2011, 07:44 PM
The guy at my shop has one. He said he was one of the first in NY to get one. He was working on setting it up when I was out there last month. He had to take it to another shop where a friend of his works because his press would not work with the bow. I stood next to him as he took a few shots with it. It seems pretty quiet and fast too.

Destroyer
07-06-2011, 10:56 PM
It's way to fugly for my liking.

Same here lol! Then there are the other reasons....


He said he was one of the first in NY to get one

Now there is a reason to buy one. ;)

peace
07-09-2011, 01:34 AM
I think this is just beautiful, graceful, yet symmetrical, great flow to its lines and just deadly looking. That's just me...
I remember when the first parallel bows seemed butt ugly, now they have grown on people. It takes awhile for us to assimilate innovations into our psyche. This is a thing of Beauty.

3316

Jake-the-snake
07-09-2011, 05:25 PM
I think this is just beautiful, graceful, yet symmetrical, great flow to its lines and just deadly looking. That's just me...
I remember when the first parallel bows seemed butt ugly, now they have grown on people. It takes awhile for us to assimilate innovations into our psyche. This is a thing of Beauty.

3316

Im gonna have to agree with you. When i first seen this picture, i just sat there in amazement for like 10 minutes. It is a real work of Art. If I were Martin, I sure as hell would get this patented.

NeilMac
07-09-2011, 09:35 PM
I am another fan in the making.

I know it is an unusual design, that is what appeals to my eye, but then I also own a Bowman Accu-Riser, so my sense of aesthetics might already be a little different to others.

I have no idea when the Seeker is likely to make it to the UK or how much it will cost, but I have a hankering to add one to the collection,

Destroyer
07-09-2011, 10:37 PM
Not me, having that forward handle won't help to reduce torquing the bow, make it worse. I guess it comes down to looks selling a bow.

MLN1963
07-10-2011, 07:02 AM
Not me, having that forward handle won't help to reduce torquing the bow, make it worse.

Not arguing, honest question. Are you sure? Watching the BT video about their center pivot bows I would think a trailing pivot would be the most stable of all?

Montalaar
07-10-2011, 11:16 AM
Not me, having that forward handle won't help to reduce torquing the bow, make it worse. I guess it comes down to looks selling a bow.

A forward handle makes it harder to torque a bow. Thats why Target bows are less reflex most of the times and it is the same reason why recurve bows are a tad harder to torque with the same weight at the end of the draw.

The problem here is that the arrow rest is at the solid riser, not at the moving grip so you get a massive overdraw. THis means that also less torque has a much immense effect.

Jake-the-snake
07-10-2011, 11:57 AM
How the riser is formed as far as reflex and deflex, has little to no effect on torque. A guy on AT named Vini Vedi Vici proved this, with this illustration. It proves that the Bowtech video is a load of bull too. The only thing that affects torque, is Brace Height. No ifs ands or butts. You could have an extremely reflexed riser, say the Hoyt Alphaburner. Put some longer limbs on it to give it a 7" or more brace height, and it will be harder to torque than it's factory spec at 6". the amount of time the arrow stays on the string, will also help determine how much torque is induced. the longer it stays on (short brace height) the more prone the shot is to torque. The shorter the amount of time (long brace height) it is less prone to the effects of torque.

However, with the current technology we have today, you only really see bows with neutral and deflexed risers having longer brace heights.
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy169/nigonjac/wrongrepresentationofCPX.jpg
According to this bowtech video/screen shots, the cams would have to be in front of the riser. Notice where the string comes off the "dummy" bow? no string comes off the front of the riser. that I know of anyways.

Destroyer
07-10-2011, 03:48 PM
A forward handle makes it harder to torque a bow. Thats why Target bows are less reflex most of the times and it is the same reason why recurve bows are a tad harder to torque with the same weight at the end of the draw.

Target bows don't have the majority of the riser behind the grip acting like a pendulum. Tape a forward handle to your bow and see.


so you get a massive overdraw

A massive overdraw that will amplify any torque. Overdraws were rubbish in the past and rubbish now. The forward handle nonsense had been tried before and failed.


The only thing that affects torque, is Brace Height. No ifs ands or butts.

Not quite Jake, balance affects torque.

Speedykills
07-10-2011, 03:58 PM
Well we will just have to see about the seeker,but i know one thing,if it's good enough for the nuge then it's good enough for me.So when they come out destroyer you want to buy me one,ok thanks out.......................:p

Destroyer
07-10-2011, 04:08 PM
So when they come out destroyer you want to buy me one

If I had enough money I'd buy everyone one. You would get two Speedykills. :D

Jake-the-snake
07-10-2011, 06:28 PM
Destroyer, hate to disagree with you, but in the past overdraws did have their place. The need for speed was there and how to get speed, cut down the length of them heavy aluminum arrows. Even later, with carbon arrows coming on strong, the overdraws played part in speeding things up. My favorite, my Ole War Horse, has a overdraw riser and I never gave thought of the overdraw effecting my shooting. See pic. How much more overdraw can you get? Me with a 29" draw and my arrow was 26 7/8" for tip of field point to the very end of the nock.

I believe overdraws are still offered by some companies, Hoyt for one. Some of the top shooters on the national circuit are using arrow rests that set back quite a bit.

Even today the overdraw could help quite a few of our short draw people get speed. Our little Smurfette, 37 pound draw and 23" draw could benefit greatly.

Yep, Jake, Destroyer is right.

I can see where you guys are coming from, and it would make sense. however, the torque I am talking about, and is so commonly seen amongst us archers, is side to side, not canting or tilting. Side to side torque is only affected by where the string leaves the cams, the farther the string from the deepest part of the grip, the less chance there is of torque being induced. and vice versa. What you guys talk about with balance, means the bow will cant one way or another, it can not physically make you turn the bow. Which is why the center pivot bowtechs, is mostly just for advertising. I have shot most of the center pivots, including the invasion. yes they feel different, but only really in the noise department. Their "deflexed" riser does nothing to eliminate torque. The Invasion is just as easy to torque as the Firecat.
In fact, the Mathews Z7 Extreme would technically be harder to torque than the Invasion.
With this being said, Short draw guys, should take advantage of low brace height bows. I.E. if one guy has a 30" draw, and shoots a bow with an 8" BH. his power stroke is 22", the same as a guy with a 27" draw shooting a 5" BH bow.



Im not trying to start anything, just a friendly debate :)

Jake-the-snake
07-10-2011, 07:36 PM
I wasn't thinking of canting or tilting the bow. Balance is also side to side or front to back, roll forward or roll backwards. Normally, the heaviest side of the bow is the sight side - can induce troque - hence, advent of the back balance stab (s). No stabilizers; Deflex bows usually rolls backward. Depending on amount of reflex, reflex bows with sit in the hand or roll slightly forward.

Of the Seeker, the grip/rest sucks. Set up the bow with grip back and cut arrows. Move grip forward and you need new arrows.

Of short brace height, 6 inches and under, and overdraws; Taking good form and good grip in consideration, the real thing that effects either is follow through.

I will agree with you on this :)

A 5" brace height bow is just as accurate as a 9" brace height.

Destroyer
07-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Destroyer, hate to disagree with you, but in the past overdraws did have their place.

I know, I just hate them lol! They were good for the rocky ground we hunted on, very hard on alloy's and with the overdraw let me shoot them once the end was broken off. Yeah good for getting your speed up but not so good for consistent accuracy. The further away from the center of the grip the more any torque is amplified.


Of short brace height, 6 inches and under, and overdraws; Taking good form and good grip in consideration, the real thing that effects either is follow through.

I agree on the brace height. Makes no difference what the figure is, it depends on the archer and how the bow shoots. 5", 6" or 7" there is not much difference anyway, its only when advertising tries to say one is more 'forgiving' that I get steamed up.


Im not trying to start anything, just a friendly debate :)

Debate away Jake! ;)

bfisher
07-11-2011, 05:14 AM
I think I'll throw another curveball into this discussion since a lot of you are talking about torque. One of the major things that can lead to torque is the holding weight at full draw. Take any bow with certain riser geometry. Increase the holding weight from say 80% to 60% and that bow will not torque as easily. Hence, just another reason many target shooters prefer more holding weight.

I love reading discussions like this, getting peoples' point of view. The only problem is that we get caught up in one aspect of what causes torque and other problems. Riser design, brace height, parallel vs non-parallel limbs, rest position, overdraws, etc. The list goes on and on. The fact is that it is not one thing that causes torque problems, but a combination of many.

Try this one on as an example. Overdraws. I shot them back in the early 90's just like a lot of you guys. As we know, follow through is more critical using one, or at least we say so. The rest is farther from the pivot point of the bow. The more the rest moves the more the arrow moves, right? Of course, this was with conventional shoot through rests of the time. Now let's fast forward to modern days and the use of drop away rests. We can mount a drop away to an overdraw, right? So we do this and shoot the bow with our normal form. For all intent the rest drops out of the picture instantaneously at the shot. Making no contact with the arrow it can't cause any arrow movement. All we're left with is the contact of the nock with the string.

Now I'm not making a plea for the comeback of overdraws. Just pointing out that maybe the Seeker isn't so bad in that respect as it may depend on what type of rest is used.

On another note, I see some guys mentioning the "test of time" in regard to improvements and such on this bow. This is just my opinion, but it is so unconventional with so many possible adjustments that it scares people. I predict sluggish sales with the possiblity that it won't even be in production more than a year or two. As said, time will tell.

And as for comments about it being ugly? At least it isn't a waffle bow. Now that is ugly.

NeilMac
07-11-2011, 05:51 AM
I'm not sure I agree regarding torquing. But that could be because I am not totally convinced I fully understand which aspect of torquing we are talking about (oh dear, I am sorry for that).

I have never shot overdraws for two reasons, 1) they never fitted the bows I had and 2) as I had a 31" DL at the time they were popular, I really didn't need the speed. Mind you, I didn't have access to a chrono either, so ignorance was bliss. I have shot a bow with an effective overdraw in the guise of the Bowman Accu-Riser.

Unfortunately Stuart Bowman's web sites have all recently expired, but these are target bows developed by Stuart and they are as accurate as anything out there, BUT, in order to avoid torquing, the grip is on a vertical pivot. It is actually fitted with adjustable rose joints top and bottom and is free to swing left / right. I would have thought that with a smaller grip, as the modern bows have, and a disciplined grip (or lack of) then the same effect could be had by allowing the bow to settle.

Although I am a dedicated finger shooter and I have shot this bow fingers, due to the association rules under which I shoot, that ban an arrow rest further than two inches from the grip, the only way I could use this bow, other than for fun, is as a FITA target bow, so that is how it is currently set up, and I shoot it using a release (spit). I normally shoot a 30" arrow, with the A-R I shoot 26" and I have had several Robin Hoods at 20 and 30 yards.

The A-C has a lot of the adjustment that the Seeker aiso has, and it really isn't difficult to set up. You do need to think about what you are doing though and that may be the falldown of the Seeker, as many archers are not that technical when it comes to their bows, so they will need a GOOD pro-shop to help them set the bow up.

I'm still keen though, as I do like the style.

The A-R is the purple bow on the right

3328

Destroyer
07-11-2011, 02:36 PM
Making no contact with the arrow it can't cause any arrow movement. All we're left with is the contact of the nock with the string.

But still allows for torquing. Some think that problem only comes from the rest but as long as the arrow is in contact with the string, any movement of the bow is still transferred to the arrow until it leaves the bow. Drop rests may reduce it but its still there.


I predict sluggish sales with the possiblity that it won't even be in production more than a year or two.

Agree.

The jaguar

http://www.archeryhistory.com/compounds/80picsnew/jaguar51.jpg