PDA

View Full Version : Broadhead tuning



Ehunter
07-07-2011, 06:03 PM
Ok, I've tuned my FC400 using paper tuning, walkback tuning, and shooting at vertical and horizontal lines. It is a tack driver with both field points and broadheads. The problem I have is, I can't for the life of me get them to group together. Last night I was gettng 4 inch groups at 70 yards with broadheads. I get the same with field points. Problem is, the groups are at least 2 feet apart at that distance. Roughly 4 inches apart at 20 yards. Field points hitting to the left of the BH's. I have moved the rest left and right, VERY slowly, (1/32nd of an inch at a time), and it never improves beyond this point. I have shot heavier spined arrows, and get the same result. Any Ideas? Thanks guys!

justin
07-07-2011, 06:20 PM
i would try a differnt broadhead.... ive shot 340 spine arrows with brand x 3blade fixed heads and they impacted perfectly with my feildpoints. but brand y 3 bladers were way off!! brand y hit dead center with 400 spine aarows though, and brand x was way off...... bolth 100 grain points and it seemed ther were only nominal differances in them......

wscywabbit
07-07-2011, 07:05 PM
I have had fairly good success with the broadhead tuning section in the martin manual. HOWEVER, last year I tried to switch to a four blade broadhead, and they wouldn't tune for crap! Put my old muzzy 3 blades back on, and whalla. Sometimes you can tune and tune, but it won't make any difference. Good luck!

Destroyer
07-07-2011, 08:06 PM
What heads? :confused:

Try a heavier field point with the same broadhead and see if they are closer.

Ehunter
07-08-2011, 01:36 AM
Destroyer, the heads are Shuttle T-Locks. Are you thinking I am overspined by suggesting I shoot a heavier FP? Arrows are 28.25 inches, 350 spine (actually a 310), 70# draw@28.75 inches true draw. I'll try a heavier FP tonight, see what that gets me.
If the thing wasn't shooting such good groups with BH's, it would make more sense to me. I'll probably try shooting my Slick Tricks as well, see how they match up.

Destroyer
07-08-2011, 03:30 AM
If the thing wasn't shooting such good groups with BH's

If its shooting so good then don't worry about getting the field points to hit the same spot. Is there a real need to have them hitting the same place?


Are you thinking I am overspined by suggesting I shoot a heavier FP?

Not so much overspined but a different affect on the spine depending on the type of head, that some broadheads weaken the spine a small amount in comparison to field points of the same mass weight. That's why I suggested you try a heavier field point, to change the spine of the field point arrow slightly and see if it equals up a bit. If it makes no difference then it must be something else like the aerodynamics of the head, etc.

I'm not a fan of group tuning anyway, I don't think its as easy as it use to be getting them to hit in the same place. With faster bows, shorter ATA's and much lighter arrows, its showing up some of the old methods of tuning.

MLN1963
07-08-2011, 05:23 AM
Have you tried a true 350 or 400 spine arrow since yours are 310? I don't know much about it but I thought if you couldn't bring the FP and BH together with rest movement it was a spine issue?

Destroyer
07-08-2011, 05:45 PM
Its a bit 'hit and miss' anyway, I don't use it anymore. All I do is paper tune with a field point to to see if the bow will tune, then I paper tune the broadhead. If its ok I sight in @ 20 yards, then walk back tune to 60 yards and if there is no problem, I sight in up to 60 yards.

Ehunter
07-09-2011, 01:52 AM
Well, the only reason for me trying to get both to hit in the same general area is that I like shooting from longer distances for practice, and I wanted to be able to do that without moving my sights back and forth. I'm one of those guys that once I get something set to my satisfaction, I leave it alone. lol As good as it's grouping, I guess I'll just mark where I have the sight set for broadheads, then move it back for FP shooting for the summer. Should be easy enough to move back and resight in for BH's this fall. Still gonna try the FP weight change and BH change though. Thanks all!

Destroyer
07-09-2011, 02:36 AM
Well, the only reason for me trying to get both to hit in the same general area is that I like shooting from longer distances for practice, and I wanted to be able to do that without moving my sights back and forth.

Understood and a good reason. Not everyone can practice with broadheads and not everyone can have two differently setup bows, one for practice and one for hunting.

Let me know how the heavier field point goes. Tuning a field point arrow to hit where the broadhead arrow does might just work!

Hutch~n~Son Archery
07-09-2011, 04:36 AM
Ehunter,
1. Have you weighed all of the arrows with the broad heads on them?
Outer limits archery sells a kit that are washers. Each weighing a grain.
This will assure that the weight of each is the same, to help them fly the same.

2. Have you indexed each broad head?
Line up each broad head with your vanes. Every blade matching the vane.
Some will sand a little material off the insert to accomplish this. But I don't recommend this. If you ever change your broad heads, you will need to sand more material off.
I use a piece of scotch tape. I put it over the insert, then poke a hole in it. Screw the insert in it and shave off the rest of the tape. (add more tape if needed) once you have indexed your blades the spin of the arrow in flight will be enhanced. Thus helping flight.

3. Have you spine tested the arrow that flies different?
Old school people would float the shafts to see where the seam would be. Then Fletch it with the seam on the bottom.
Now a days you might get an arrow or two with the seam out of place. Thus the seam being a little stiffer and causing that arrow to fly different.
Most would re-Fletch the arrow to line the seam to the bottom.


Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
07-09-2011, 06:05 AM
Ehunter

Maybe it would be easier in the long run to get a second sight that you have one for FP and one for BH? If you have a micro adjustable sight then it might be easier to move things back and forth. If it comes to that for me I will pick up a second sight if I can afford it.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
07-09-2011, 04:37 PM
MLN just buy a second bow one for target field points, and the other for Hunting broad heads!
Come on you've got the bucks:p



Hutch:cool:

Arrow Splitter
07-09-2011, 04:38 PM
You've got the bucks:p



Hutch:cool:I hope you're talking about the antlered type.LOL:D:D

wick
07-09-2011, 04:53 PM
Got the same thing goin on with my Muzzy's. at about 30 yards they hit right on top of each other one foot to the left. I shoot aluminum 2315 easton super slams. a little heavy and overspined for my 59 pound DW. It exits a little nock right so I attribute the left flight to this. I have the same thing with my Darton so when it comes Late september I just move my sights. Haven't tried lighter arrow to see if it's any differnt though. the only thing that i think would remedy this is moving to mechanicals but I havn't experimented with this yet.

Jake-the-snake
07-09-2011, 05:10 PM
You sure your form is the same every time? i have seen guys change some when they practice with broadheads, i never could understand why.
To me it sounds like you have a spine issue...You shouldnt have to line up your blades with the fletching, ever.
Could just be your broadheads too. I have never been able to get muzzys to fly with my field points, ever, no matter what bow/arrow/ anything, I just couldnt.

Walk back tune your arrows with field points, 20, 40, 60. adjust so that they will all hit in the same vertical line. if your arrows cant there, then there is a spine issue for sure.

HawgEnvy
07-09-2011, 08:23 PM
I'm gonna have to go with trying a different BH. In my experience, the bow decides on the BH it likes. I was never able to get my bows to shoot Magnus or Muzzys. Then I switched bows and the muzzys shoot fine w a bit of tuning. Still couldn't get the Magnus to shoot. I can also shoot Wasp, Muzzy knock-offs from Wally World,NAP Nitron, CE cheapies,from the same bow grouping w my FP w minimal tuning. I'm using Slick Tricks now and they're the first heads that have shot w "field point accuracy" out of the package w no tuning required.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
07-10-2011, 03:01 AM
I am shooting Carbon Express F-15's and they fly the same as my field points and no tuning required. If you have done all the tuning tips given to you and all you know. Like Hawg said you might have to try different ones.


Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
07-10-2011, 07:05 AM
MLN just buy a second bow one for target field points, and the other for Hunting broad heads!
Come on you've got the bucks:p



Hutch:cool:

I used to, not anymore. :(

Ehunter
07-10-2011, 12:10 PM
I shot some more this weekend, and shot 3 different broadheads. Shuttle T locks, Slick Tricks, and Wasp Bullets. All 3 are impacting to the right of my FP groups. All 3 are getting good groups, just grouping right of the FP's every time. Tried moving the rest a little with all 3 BH's, and still no better. Tried shooting 125 gr. FP's as Destroyer suggested, and no difference. I always index the BH's with the fletchings when a build an arrow, so that's out too. All of the arrows are within 2 gr. variance. I'd think if it was a form issue, I wouldn't be holding as good of groups as I am. If it was a spine issue, I should have an ocasional flyer or something. None of this is happening. At 50 yards, I get 2 inch groups with both FP's and BH's. The two groups just happen to be about a foot apart at that distance. Think I am just gonna move the rest back so my FP's hit on the dot, and then readjust for BH's a few weeks before the hunt. Seems to be the simplest cure. lol Thanks again for the help guys!

Destroyer
07-10-2011, 03:33 PM
Tried shooting 125 gr. FP's as Destroyer suggested, and no difference.

So the spine isn't too weak then.


Think I am just gonna move the rest back so my FP's hit on the dot, and then readjust for BH's a few weeks before the hunt. Seems to be the simplest cure.

And easy. If you can mark the sight for both you could adjust on the day even, done that before.

RLW
07-11-2011, 11:05 AM
I use field points with adder points for shooting grouse/small game and practice stump shooting when out on hunting trips so I hate not having my broadheads hitting with field points.

Most recent time I had trouble getting the two heads hitting near the same place was with with my current Bengal.
Even though I typically used a 340 spine arrow, my old Firecat (69lbs, Ultra Sonic wheel) would shoot a 400 spine well also with either point.
Same 400 arrow out of my Bengal (65lb) is border line weak but shot 100gr and 125gr field points fine, but even 100gr broadhead on it seemed to act weak, planning off right or high right.

Got the 340's out with a 100grs point (still close to 12% FOC) and both heads started grouping together better. Only had move the arrow rest more in the direction of the field point group until they came together.......close range paper tune was not perfect after that, but I didn't care as long as I had good flight and groups

Spiker
07-11-2011, 01:36 PM
To me, FP's and BH's hitting a foot apart is not right.
Lets start at square one.
Can you post all your bow and arrow specs again.?
Something is just amiss if they wont shoot together at least out to 45-50yds.

wscywabbit
07-11-2011, 01:47 PM
"close range paper tune was not perfect after that, but I didn't care as long as I had good flight and groups"

After "super tuning" a setup, the paper tune goes right out the window. Thats why I only use it as a good starting point.

I agree that something ain't right, and that you shouldn't have to settle with BH and FP groups being so far apart. FWIW, I would start over. Paper tune it, then walk back tune it, then BH tune it and see what you get.

Its alot of work, I know. :(

Ehunter
07-12-2011, 03:23 PM
Just a thought, but if the rest and nock point are both set too low, would the bow still tune properly? Just crossed my mind as I've seen a few people talk about barely clearing the TRG/SOS with their fletchings, and mine has plenty of clearance.

Destroyer
07-12-2011, 04:22 PM
Just a thought, but if the rest and nock point are both set too low, would the bow still tune properly?

Yes, but how low are you talking about?

Btw, do you have this same broadhead tuning problem with your other bows?

Ehunter
07-12-2011, 05:10 PM
The middle of my D-loop is 1 1/16th below the bottom of the SOS. Roughly 15 1/2 inches from the bottom cam, and 13 1/2 from the top cam. The arrow does run parallel with the berger holes, but I'm thinking maybe everything needs to be a bit higher. I have room to move the nock point and rest up by at least 3/8ths of an inch. After shooting my Onza with BH's tonight, I noticed it is acting the same way. It's set up the exact same way as well. Tuned the same, nock point and rest the same heigth, etc. As for my other bows, I've had no problems at all getting good FP and BH flight out of them. They tuned in very easily.

Destroyer
07-12-2011, 08:56 PM
The arrow does run parallel with the berger holes, but I'm thinking maybe everything needs to be a bit higher.

Could be, I've had single cams bows tuning better if the arrow was above the berger.


After shooting my Onza with BH's tonight, I noticed it is acting the same way. It's set up the exact same way as well. Tuned the same, nock point and rest the same height, etc

Something in that. Same rest on both bows?


As for my other bows, I've had no problems at all getting good FP and BH flight out of them. They tuned in very easily.

Maybe its just showing up the newer bows? Not so easy to tune.

Ehunter
07-13-2011, 01:33 AM
Destroyer, same rest on both bows. I did notice that both new bows seemed to be more of a pain to tune that my bows in the past. My '08 Moab was overly simple, and my old '09 FC I had was very easy as well. Thinking I may take the FC and raise everything 1/4 inch, see if that helps. If so, do the same with the Onza. Thanks again to everyone for all the help! Great bunch of guys we have here!

Speedykills
07-13-2011, 03:25 AM
Sometimes you have to find the right BH,really has nothing to do with your bow being in tune.Some fly better than others i know my muzzy mx3 fly with my field points where if i threw on some slick tricks i had and they wouldnt.
So i would try a different BH if it were me.

Arrow Splitter
07-13-2011, 04:58 AM
Sometimes you have to find the right BH,really has nothing to do with your bow being in tune.Some fly better than others i know my muzzy mx3 fly with my field points where if i threw on some slick tricks i had and they wouldnt.
So i would try a different BH if it were me.x2 I agree.

Ehunter
07-13-2011, 11:20 AM
Speedy, AS,

I've tried 3 different BH's and they all group well and in the same place. Shuttle T's, Wasp bullets, and Slick Tricks. But with all 3 of the different BH's, I'm still not bringing my FP and BH groups together. Closest I can get is about 4 inches at 20 yards. That translates into 3 feet at 70 yards roughly. Vertically, I'm the same, but off on the horizontal. Shooting tight groups, no fliers or anything, just not hitting with my FP.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
07-13-2011, 12:03 PM
Sounds like the spine seam is not on the bottom




Hutch:cool:

Speedykills
07-13-2011, 02:04 PM
Speedy, AS,

I've tried 3 different BH's and they all group well and in the same place. Shuttle T's, Wasp bullets, and Slick Tricks. But with all 3 of the different BH's, I'm still not bringing my FP and BH groups together. Closest I can get is about 4 inches at 20 yards. That translates into 3 feet at 70 yards roughly. Vertically, I'm the same, but off on the horizontal. Shooting tight groups, no fliers or anything, just not hitting with my FP.

Forgot to mention this,if your shooting over 250fps you should use a smaller BH,im not sure what speed you have but thats something to think about,do you know what you FOC is!

Destroyer
07-14-2011, 03:54 AM
One thing to keep in mind that it doesn't always work, one of the reasons that mechanical broadheads are so popular.

Having said that, I shot my bear mauler today with an old style broadhead and it grouped with the field points @ 30 yards without any adjustment. A bit low at 50 yards but still ok. The broadhead was 125 grains and the field point was only 100 grains. Yep makes perfect sense hey! :confused:

http://www.abbeyarchery.com.au/mm5/graphics/Spirit_100gr_2_Blade_Screw_In_med.jpg

Speedykills
07-14-2011, 11:44 AM
One thing to keep in mind that it doesn't always work, one of the reasons that mechanical broadheads are so popular.

Having said that, I shot my bear mauler today with an old style broadhead and it grouped with the field points @ 30 yards without any adjustment. A bit low at 50 yards but still ok. The broadhead was 125 grains and the field point was only 100 grains. Yep makes perfect sense hey! :confused:

http://www.abbeyarchery.com.au/mm5/graphics/Spirit_100gr_2_Blade_Screw_In_med.jpg

Did you make that BH yourself!

Destroyer
07-14-2011, 02:43 PM
Nah they're called 'Tusker Spirits' and there very popular here. Nice and cheap and hold a good edge, look old timey though.

Ehunter
07-17-2011, 04:33 PM
Son of a ....... I couldn't just leave it alone. Tore the bow down and started retuning. Paper tuned, and the arrow is so far inside that's it's ridiculous. Shooting bullet holes, but the arrow is at a very visible angle across the riser window. Front of the arrow is straight above the inside of the grip. So now I'm gonna scrap that, and go to vertical and horizontal tuning, then do my walkback tuning. Thank God I have until Oct. lol

Hutch~n~Son Archery
07-17-2011, 04:38 PM
Here is a tip from Sonny T
http://martinarchery.com/mtechforum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by SonnyThomas http://martinarchery.com/mtechforum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://martinarchery.com/mtechforum/showthread.php?p=55562#post55562)
Before setting center shot! Back off the SOS, STS or whatever they call them. Don't even have them close to the string.

Had a bow come that wasn't flying arrows right. So I took a look, fired a shot, and sure enough something wasn't right. Looked at center shot and it didn't look right. The guy said he had just set it. So I noted the bow string right on the SOS and off center on SOS. So I moved the SOS forward and took another look at center shot. It was different, still not right, but different than it was before. So I set center shot. I then moved the SOS within about .040" of the string and I also center the SOS to the center. Took two shots to hit the bull's a little better and a couple more to refine the sight to hit the X. Customer was happy.

So evidently the owner had set center shot with the SOS pushing the string slightly off center. Too dang hot I closed the shop at 1:00 pm

Hutch:cool:

Ehunter
07-17-2011, 04:49 PM
Thanks Hutch, I'll give it a try. This FC400 is making me feel like I've never tuned a bow before.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
07-17-2011, 04:51 PM
Now you know how I felt when I couldn't even get my dl right! Then I found out from Sonny T they had old school technology on it for a draw stop


Hutch:cool:

Destroyer
07-17-2011, 05:59 PM
This FC400 is making me feel like I've never tuned a bow before.

Good bows tune easy, crap bows tune hard. And then there is the 'un-tunable' rubbish that gets sold or in my case 'destroyed'. ;)

MLN1963
07-17-2011, 06:31 PM
EHunter

If I have as much troubles as you when I get to BH tuning I'm going to just buy some Grim Reaper or other mechanicals and forget about it. I think mechanicals are reliable enough these days that I won't loose any sleep over it.

Ehunter
08-09-2011, 05:28 PM
Reviving this thread for a last post. I tore the FC400 completely down and started over. Skipped the papertuning, and just did horizontal and vertical line. Then walklback tuned. Same thing I did last time. I have no idea what turned out differently, but I am now grouping very well with FP & BH out to 60 yards. Both hitting the same spot. Something is different, but I have no idea what. Not gonna tear it back down to figure it out either. lol

cyclepath
08-09-2011, 06:23 PM
Could be Earth's magnetic field varied at your geological position creating harmonic conditions that allowed dynamic changes in your bow's behavior when being re-assembled and tune sighted. Just a thought. :D

Man, I was just goin to say that !!! :p

Destroyer
08-10-2011, 01:07 AM
Something is different, but I have no idea what. Not gonna tear it back down to figure it out either. lol

See my sig lol! ;)

We could discuss why its different now but there is no point really, don't want to jinx it. Is that all bows tuning well now?

Ehunter
08-10-2011, 05:54 AM
Sonny, I figured it was something simple like that. lol I thought it might be that my right arm is slightly bigger than my left, and that was pulling my shot off, but your explanation seems to be the simpler of the two. lol

Destroyer. Both the 70# bows (FC400 and Onza) are shooting FP & BH in the same spot out to 60 yards. I haven't shot BH's through the 60# Onza, since I use expandables for turkey hunting. Last turkey I shot with a fixed blade gave me a clean pass through, and a lost arrow. lol

All 3 bows are shooting perfectly though, and getting great groups and good speed out of them. The FC is a little noisier than the Onza's, but nothing I think the deer will notice. Onza's are almost dead quiet.

MLN1963
08-10-2011, 06:01 AM
EHunter

What do yo mean you tore it down and started over, what was tore down?

Since broadhead tuning is in my future do you mind explaining your process. Since I have a FC 400 it may work for me too.

Ehunter
08-10-2011, 06:11 AM
MLN, I stripped it back down to bare bow, and started over. Only thing I left on was the whiskers and peep. Put the rest and sights back on, then eyeballed in centershot, then started with vertical and horizontal line tuning. Basically did like the video that was posted from AT on a "quick tune" for bow set-up. Then I walk back tuned to 60 yards. After that, I got my sights set, and tried a broadhead at 30 yards. Was just barely high, so I rotated the D-loop one turn around the string, and it the BH's were dead on after that. Now they are shooting within a 5 inch circle at 60 yards, right along with my field points. The video is in "Bow Set Up Tips" in the forum here. Sonny is the one that started that thread. I'd cut and paste, but I'm a computer caveman. lol

justin
09-21-2011, 01:02 PM
well im going to toss a muzzy mx3 through my ax toninght and if it hits with my feild points i might grab a pack of them. i am 3 for 3 with my shockwaves though, and i know they fly dead on, but i have yet to get a pass through, and one blood trail didnt exsist.... i just walked over and grabbed my deer 50 yards away. anyway after my broadhead test im off to try to tag another management town deer.... well the mx3 flew perfectly, out to 50 yards anyway. just as i suspected it would...... had never shot a fixed blade through my bow until tonight

Destroyer
09-21-2011, 07:43 PM
.................................................: (

justin
09-28-2011, 04:32 PM
Correct destroyer! Only mechanicals. I think i got my ax around January an have only shot league and 3d. I ended up with muzzy 4 blades which also fly perfect! I must have it tuned! The aarow sits squirrly in the berger window, and sonny said something wasnt right, but everything tuned so i didnt worry about it!