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View Full Version : 2008 Firecat ??? Take a stab at this one



Bowhunter_IL_BT
08-29-2011, 05:38 PM
I found a deal on a brand new 2008 Firecat. The IBO is 335-345 with variability to 26-29 in draw if you use long mod it goes higher in DL. The poundage goes up to 60 lbs with brace height of 7 in. I am a 26 inch DL. What speed do you think I can get with this bow?? Im curious if it shoots a little harder I might consider getting it. I have a 2010 Cheetah set at 73 lbs with 7.25 brace height. My arrows are 360 to 370 grains and shooting about 262 fps. Just wondering if it would be a good idea to switch. I love the Cheetah but if I can shoot a little harder might be worth it. What do you all think????? ;)

Destroyer
08-29-2011, 07:02 PM
Problem here is the draw weight difference, 73# vs 60#, a 13# difference so the Firecat's speed might not that much faster. Good thing is the 60# should be easier to draw, better for accuracy and better on your shoulder. It will also give you more choice of arrows, at 73# your looking at 300's only I would think.

Speedykills
08-29-2011, 07:10 PM
I had a 2008 firecat 29dlx64pds/372grn arrow i was hitting 285fps,with a 7.4grn arrow x30"=290fps...........so ya the firecat would be the faster bow at lower poundage.

Destroyer
08-29-2011, 07:16 PM
I had a 2008 firecat 29dlx64pds/372grn arrow i was hitting 285fps

So at 26" 60# and 370gr its going to be around 38 fps slower so about the same as the 73# cheetah or slower, even if you go to a lighter arrow.

justin
08-29-2011, 07:19 PM
well if hes shooting a 26 inch draw length (my cheetah drew longer than the mods indicate) he can get away with a 25 inch aarow and be fine for a 400 spline. for a 27 inch aarow in 400 spine he would need to shoot 125grain points or be underweight with most aarows, and spine is good to the 70# range i think with that short of an aarow.

Destroyer
08-29-2011, 07:23 PM
Keep in mind that what I said is calculated speed, might not be that much of a loss. Now if you could increase the Firecat's draw weight there would be no doubt which is faster.

justin
08-29-2011, 07:25 PM
hed have to drop some aarow weight, but i think he could maintain speed or even gain a little. my ax drops 285fps with a 340 grain aarow at 61#s and 27.5 in draw. not to shabby, i think even the 08 firecat can do the same.
dont knoww for sure though. :p

justin
08-29-2011, 07:36 PM
what whould that work out in the calculator? 12 fps for dl, 2 fps for dw, 7fps for aarow weight ~just shotgunning with my chrono exp and tinkering and playing with other clacularors~ so 285 minus 21 264fps, assuming his bow shots as fast as mine set up like mine. (ibo ratings very close) id actually take 3 or 4 fps to just because. i think he can shoot dam near the same speed with less draw weight......

Jake-the-snake
08-29-2011, 07:41 PM
Just an FYI...I had an 08 Firekitty, awesome little bow, however, even with a ton of tuning, those Firecats real IBO was around 325. I think you would be around the same as your cheetah. However, it would be a lot smoother and easier to pull back

Speedykills
08-30-2011, 04:23 PM
So at 26" 60# and 370gr its going to be around 38 fps slower so about the same as the 73# cheetah or slower, even if you go to a lighter arrow.

I guarantee that firecat will max out above 60# and with a 26Inch draw with the lighter arrows will make up the difference!

Bowhunter_IL_BT
08-30-2011, 05:32 PM
Thanks Speedy, Justin, Destroyer, and Jake the Snake. I appreciate your feedback a lot. The more I think about it and listening to you guess speculate I think that Im probably better off just sticking to the Cheetah. Even if the 08 Firecat shoots a little harder 5-10 fps faster its not enough to justify getting it. Having a short DL really sucks! :( Im not all about speed but having that short DL it helps to get as aggressive as you can. I have to let all of you know that pulling 73 lbs. is no problem for me even effortless in late season in cold IL. I wish Martin had bows that even went up to 80 lbs. I know the limbs have to be pretty tough. I know Hoyt and Strother archery does it. Heard the 08 Martin limbs had a lot of recalls so with my 2010 be better off that way as well. Im shooting 73 lbs cause the custom string I put on pulled on limbs a little more. I also like the 30 inch axel to axel its slick in the treestand.

Once again thanks everyone for at least taking the effort to look into it!

Destroyer
08-30-2011, 06:27 PM
I wish Martin had bows that even went up to 80 lbs.

When I put 2009 limbs on my 2007 Pantera the weight jumped to 80#. Maybe if you called Martin they could set you up. What is the limb deflection of your bow, 7H?

bfisher
08-31-2011, 06:36 AM
Not trying to talk you into anything, but the dual cam (binary) set up to the same specs as the single cam and shooting the same arrow will not be 5 to10 fps faster. It will be between 15 and 20 fps faster. That's the results I got between a 2008 FireCat (Binary) and a 2009 Moab (single cam) at a 27" draw length.

Don't get all hepped up over the idea of shooting 80# to get more speed or kinetic energy. You'll get more unnecessary kinetic energy, but will have to shoot a comparably heavier arrow so speed ends up being a wash. Really, there isn't even anything walking in North America that justifies 70#. Men's egos are all that makes 70# necessary. And there are a few neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons kept in business by people thinking they NEED heavy poundage.

justin
08-31-2011, 07:18 AM
i agree barry. the best thing i ever did was drop to 60 pounds. ~nods~

cyclepath
08-31-2011, 10:58 AM
Just an FYI...I had an 08 Firekitty, awesome little bow, however, even with a ton of tuning, those Firecats real IBO was around 325. I think you would be around the same as your cheetah. However, it would be a lot smoother and easier to pull back

I think even those numbers are high for the firecat. Speedy and I were getting pretty close to the same fps.
I believe the real ibo numbers would be between 310 to 315 and even that is asking alot from that bow.
Whether they are any closer to their advertised ibo now I don't know, but they haven't changed alot on their bows.
I don't believe a new cam will add 25 to 30 fps, but if it does I know what I want for christmas.

Jake-the-snake
08-31-2011, 02:03 PM
I think even those numbers are high for the firecat. Speedy and I were getting pretty close to the same fps.
I believe the real ibo numbers would be between 310 to 315 and even that is asking alot from that bow.
Whether they are any closer to their advertised ibo now I don't know, but they haven't changed alot on their bows.
I don't believe a new cam will add 25 to 30 fps, but if it does I know what I want for christmas.

I think with mine it was actually right around 320...oh well, the one deer I shot with it, didnt even know it was hit. That was at 71#, 387 grain arrow, 28" draw and 16 yards away. They definately were a great hunting bow, thats for sure. Which is why i picked up a Martin Warthog with the same specs as the Firecats (but with barnsdale limbs).

Bowhunter_IL_BT
08-31-2011, 02:32 PM
Not trying to talk you into anything, but the dual cam (binary) set up to the same specs as the single cam and shooting the same arrow will not be 5 to10 fps faster. It will be between 15 and 20 fps faster. That's the results I got between a 2008 FireCat (Binary) and a 2009 Moab (single cam) at a 27" draw length.

Don't get all hepped up over the idea of shooting 80# to get more speed or kinetic energy. You'll get more unnecessary kinetic energy, but will have to shoot a comparably heavier arrow so speed ends up being a wash. Really, there isn't even anything walking in North America that justifies 70#. Men's egos are all that makes 70# necessary. And there are a few neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons kept in business by people thinking they NEED heavy poundage.



Barry I have a 26 inch draw so that means it would shoot at least 10-12 fps slower than the 27 inch DL bow you mentioned. Thats the case I would not gain a heck of a lot from it. You are absolutely right about 80 lbs and a heavier arrow to match and mimimal gain with that. I agree with 70 lbs too, but for me being a short DL I like as much of an advantage as I can. It is not a problem pulling it back otherwise id be at a 62-65 lbs pull instead. While im still young I might as well take advantage of it.

Bowhunter_IL_BT
08-31-2011, 02:34 PM
Wanna hear something wild??? My cousin when he hunted pulled nearly 100 lbs. with an old Game Sport bow. Talk about old crazy!!

bfisher
08-31-2011, 05:20 PM
Barry I have a 26 inch draw so that means it would shoot at least 10-12 fps slower than the 27 inch DL bow you mentioned. Thats the case I would not gain a heck of a lot from it. You are absolutely right about 80 lbs and a heavier arrow to match and mimimal gain with that. I agree with 70 lbs too, but for me being a short DL I like as much of an advantage as I can. It is not a problem pulling it back otherwise id be at a 62-65 lbs pull instead. While im still young I might as well take advantage of it.

Yes, with your shorter draw length you'll get about 10 fps slower than I get, but you also are 10 fps slower with the single cam, too. Apples to apples young man. Remember, I said my two bows were set to the same specs and shooting the same arrow. Only difference was the cams.

Lets put this another way. I don't hunt now, but when I did I did so with setup that produced somewhere around 40# of kinetic energy. Last three deer I shot was with a 61# bow shooting a 315 gr arrow at 237fps. 39# of kinetic energy if you do the math. Two of the deer had pass throughs like a hot knife thru butter, both at about 15 yards. The other I shot quartering away at about 45 degrees, arrow entering behind the ribs on one side and into the leg/shoulder bone on the other, bending the broadhead and breaking that bone. The deer went 90 yards.

The point is you don't need a lot of oomph to kill deer. No matter about your draw length, with a properly spined arrow of any weight out of 70# is plenty. Don't feel slighted because of your short stature. When it comes to archery it does have some advantages. Speed just isn't one of them. Have confidence in your gear and your ability with it. Don't overthink things too much. Let it go and just enjoy it while you're young.

Bowhunter_IL_BT
08-31-2011, 06:08 PM
Yes, with your shorter draw length you'll get about 10 fps slower than I get, but you also are 10 fps slower with the single cam, too. Apples to apples young man. Remember, I said my two bows were set to the same specs and shooting the same arrow. Only difference was the cams.

Lets put this another way. I don't hunt now, but when I did I did so with setup that produced somewhere around 40# of kinetic energy. Last three deer I shot was with a 61# bow shooting a 315 gr arrow at 237fps. 39# of kinetic energy if you do the math. Two of the deer had pass throughs like a hot knife thru butter, both at about 15 yards. The other I shot quartering away at about 45 degrees, arrow entering behind the ribs on one side and into the leg/shoulder bone on the other, bending the broadhead and breaking that bone. The deer went 90 yards.

The point is you don't need a lot of oomph to kill deer. No matter about your draw length, with a properly spined arrow of any weight out of 70# is plenty. Don't feel slighted because of your short stature. When it comes to archery it does have some advantages. Speed just isn't one of them. Have confidence in your gear and your ability with it. Don't overthink things too much. Let it go and just enjoy it while you're young.



Barry if I knew I could get almost 20 fps more id be tempted to switch, but I don't see me getting that much more. Down the road I may look to get a firecat the Cheetah I have shoots well. The only reason I get caught up a little on speed is if I plan to shoot longer distances. Speed helps to get to the target faster and you have to have a balance of speed with a heavy enough arrow for hunting. Those hunting stories you mentioned no question at 15-20 yards its all about accuracy and don't need much energy at all. Also staying away from that scapula makes a difference for full penetration. You are correct about some advantages. I hear Short draw archers have a built in forgiveness with the power stroke being shorter. I would be reluctant to ever get a bow under a 7 inch brace as well especially for hunting. I appreciate your feedback. Heck when I get older I may not mess around. Meaning Ill just go with the Crossbow more, LOL.

Speedykills
08-31-2011, 06:50 PM
Just one more thing to add is at a lower draw weight the cheetah will fall off quicker than the firecat,the cat2 cams really hold the speed,ok im done.

Destroyer
08-31-2011, 10:31 PM
I would be reluctant to ever get a bow under a 7 inch brace as well especially for hunting.

Why? Brace height doesn't make a huge difference especially going from 7" to 6" with your draw length. With good form you can shoot any bow. I think brace height is more for the marketing side of selling bows these days. 7" is forgiving but 6" isn't? BS! Once 9" was forgiving and 7" was for speed bows, how the marketing changes over the years lol!

And about speed, there is no way I'm going back to slow old speeds regardless on how much KE you need. Sniping bunny's out to 60 yards I need the flattest shooting I can get and on a budget draw weight is the only way to get it.

Like that crossbow idea btw. ;)

bfisher
09-01-2011, 08:07 AM
Speaking of crossbows, a few years back I lost a lot of muscle in my left arm, sholder, and back--about 40% (long story). I could have gotten a Ten Point crossbow for hunting and gotten whichever one I wanted for free or very close to it. Again, long story short, I gave up hunting. IWhen I regained anough strength to shoot again it was with a 15" Genisis. I spent almost a year shooting nothing but 15 yards. I can now shoot about 50#, but settle on 47# for better accuracy. Going to a crossbow would have been, to me, like surrendering and that's not a word in my vocabulary.

So, would I hunt with 47# and about a 300 gr arrow? In a heartbeat. But then I lost the desire so now I punch paper and rubber.

Bowhunter_IL_BT
09-01-2011, 11:22 AM
Why? Brace height doesn't make a huge difference especially going from 7" to 6" with your draw length. With good form you can shoot any bow. I think brace height is more for the marketing side of selling bows these days. 7" is forgiving but 6" isn't? BS! Once 9" was forgiving and 7" was for speed bows, how the marketing changes over the years lol!

And about speed, there is no way I'm going back to slow old speeds regardless on how much KE you need. Sniping bunny's out to 60 yards I need the flattest shooting I can get and on a budget draw weight is the only way to get it.

Like that crossbow idea btw. ;)


Destroyer I don't like to go below 7 inches because of forearm slap. I have had trouble with it before even after rotating my elbow out. With bulky clothing in the late season def a problem to go lower than that. There still is a big diff with an 8 in brace versus a 6 in brace. The longer powerstroke with the 6in brace will be less forgiving.

Barry I know what you mean about surrendering. I conned my dad into getting a crossbow recently. He felt like a failure that he switched over. Got him an Excalibur and now he loves it. My dad to be honest with you was just not a good archery shot now at age 63. Even with low poundages he moves too much and he shoots too inconsistent. He has the hardest time settling a pin and moves too much when he shoots. He says he cant break the recurve habit. I like the idea for crossbows for late season hunts. They still have there disadvantages hunting and can be tough to manuever in a treestand. My gf has an Exalibur and looking to get her first deer on Oct.1 opening weekend in IL. She had spine surgery 3 years ago and was elligible. I like shooting it in the backyard still they are a lot of fun.

Destroyer
09-01-2011, 02:28 PM
Going to a crossbow would have been, to me, like surrendering.

Not to me. The only bad thing about crossbows here is that you need a license and media see it as evil weapon. I can't get over how big some of them are though, there freaking huge!


The longer powerstroke with the 6in brace will be less forgiving.

Bows aren't forgiving at all lol! ;)

cyclepath
09-01-2011, 04:49 PM
I think with mine it was actually right around 320...oh well, the one deer I shot with it, didnt even know it was hit. That was at 71#, 387 grain arrow, 28" draw and 16 yards away. They definately were a great hunting bow, thats for sure. Which is why i picked up a Martin Warthog with the same specs as the Firecats (but with barnsdale limbs).

Not trying to start anything here but I can't believe you were getting close to that speed. I'm pulling the same weight and 1" longer draw and even with a 365 grn arrow I was only getting 292 and only got that once. The best I could get beings all things how they should be is about 305.I'm not complaining about my bow or it's speed, but I would like to see real world numbers from martin. :)

Destroyer
09-01-2011, 06:20 PM
I would like to see real world numbers from martin.

I think they should adopt pse's method and have a range of fps.

Jake-the-snake
09-01-2011, 08:34 PM
Not trying to start anything here but I can't believe you were getting close to that speed. I'm pulling the same weight and 1" longer draw and even with a 365 grn arrow I was only getting 292 and only got that once. The best I could get beings all things how they should be is about 305.I'm not complaining about my bow or it's speed, but I would like to see real world numbers from martin. :)

Ha a mixup here guys. Thats what it would have shot at 30" 70 lbs. and 350 grain arrow (IBO)... I was right around 290 with my setup lol

Ehunter
09-02-2011, 01:40 AM
With my '09 Firecat, 70# 28.5 inch draw shooting a 365 gr. arrow I was getting a solid 312 fps. That was measured on two different chronos. One read 312, the other read 311. Multiple shots. My 2011 FC400 is getting 303 fps with a 70#, 28.5 inch draw and 383 gr. arrows. I followed Gstudts advice on AT about how to wrap up the cams for the maximum performance, and have been very pleased with the results.

bfisher
09-02-2011, 04:57 AM
Have to lean towards cyclepath on this. 320 fps is a bit much to believe. I would believe 280 fps.



Same here, have to go with Destroyer. One of my low brace height bows is 6 3/8" and it doesn't bother me one bit. Super accurate to boot. AND anytime arm slap comes up I think draw length too long or improper grip and/or arm/shoulder position. The majority of my bows with loops are set to 28" of draw, but working at the bow shop I have to shoot bows and long as 30 1/2" and I don't get arm slap (Gorilla armed PSE shooters). I can't remember the last time I used a arm guard for 3D or target shooting of any kind. I do use one during hunting season to keep bulky sleeves compressed. They do make sleeve compressors, but I'm too cheap to buy when my arm guard still works.

Ditto that last paragraph. My AZ is 6.5" brace and I can't remember the last time I hit my arm. In fact, I haven't even owned an arm guard for a least 20 years. But then along the way I learned to set me draw length correctly and not rely on the bow feeling good at the "too long" draw length tht I had gotten used to. Now that I shoot the right draw length I have the hardest time controlling a bow that is even 1/4" longer than my optimum. Yeah, I can shoot 'em. I just can't control them.

Destroyer
09-02-2011, 03:39 PM
Now that I shoot the right draw length I have the hardest time controlling a bow that is even 1/4" longer than my optimum

Same here. Straight away I have trouble getting my peep lined up correctly and feel too stretched out. I can shoot fine but it takes a lot more effort.

cyclepath
09-03-2011, 09:40 AM
I followed Gstudts advice on AT about how to wrap up the cams for the maximum performance, and have been very pleased with the results.

What do you mean wrap up the cams?
Is this something that potentionaly could harm the bow?

bfisher
09-03-2011, 10:29 AM
What do you mean wrap up the cams?
Is this something that potentionaly could harm the bow?

It's a method of supertuning a bow to get more efficiency out of the cams. Try this link:

www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=626601

Destroyer
09-03-2011, 04:01 PM
Supertuning.... :rolleyes:

Ehunter
09-04-2011, 01:01 AM
Cycle, it took me a long time of playing with the bow to get it set just right, but once I did, it was a real shooter. The link Barry posted is the one I followed. Basically, it's just a matter of twisting the cables up on the cams in a certain way to get the most out of the cam system. I did notice however, that on my FC400, the thing shoots best when it's not twisted up as much as my old '09 FC. There's a significant cable-to-post gap difference between my new FC and how my old one was. Getting virtually the same speed out of this new FC as I did the old one too. Both my Onzas have a smaller gap than the FC400. Must just be in the geometry of how everything works together. It's all about playing around, and taking the time to adjust, test, and readjust the cam timing.

Bowhunter_IL_BT
09-04-2011, 07:27 AM
Have to lean towards cyclepath on this. 320 fps is a bit much to believe. I would believe 280 fps.



Same here, have to go with Destroyer. One of my low brace height bows is 6 3/8" and it doesn't bother me one bit. Super accurate to boot. AND anytime arm slap comes up I think draw length too long or improper grip and/or arm/shoulder position. The majority of my bows with loops are set to 28" of draw, but working at the bow shop I have to shoot bows and long as 30 1/2" and I don't get arm slap (Gorilla armed PSE shooters). I can't remember the last time I used a arm guard for 3D or target shooting of any kind. I do use one during hunting season to keep bulky sleeves compressed. They do make sleeve compressors, but I'm too cheap to buy when my arm guard still works.


Well I see you guys have had no trouble with forearm slap with lower than 7 in brace. To be honest I have not shot a lot of bows under that mark. I know a shorter brace height is not as smooth of a draw as a longer brace height you can't argue with that one. I do realize you can get away with a lighter poundage with shorter brace heights. Well if I ever get a short brace bow that shoots harder id look into a Firecate one day.

Jake-the-snake
09-04-2011, 02:02 PM
I was tried the Mathews Black Max, fastest of the fastest at one time, 330 fps. 5 1/2" brace height. I liked it, even tried to buy it.



Yes me can argue with that (getting even with my English teacher). Length of limb, length of ata, type of cam or cam system, all or any combination makes the draw what it is. I thought I gave this information in the Onza Post I started. The 2011 Onza 3 I worked on has a 7 3/4" brace height and my 2010 Shadowcat a 7 1/2" brace height. Okay, 1/4" is nothing. My Shadowcat has a 28 1/4" draw length and the Onza 3 has a 28" draw length. The bows were identical for draw weight. After shooting the Onza 3 for I don't know how many shots I ended the day with my Shadowcat. I drew my Shadowcat back so easy and so fast I thought I was going to rip it in half.

UltraTec and Bowtech; I have a 2000 UltraTec equipped with the Red Line cam and XT2000 limbs, fastest of all other UltraTecs unless speaking of those with Spiral Cams. Brace height - 6 3/8" and draw weight of 62 pounds. Ata of 38 3/8". The 2005 Bowtech Old Glory I owned, ordered new, had a 60.9 pound draw weight, 37 1/4" ata, and a 7 1/2" brace height. UltraTec; For a hard cam system the UltraTec was and still is very nice to draw. Old Glory; Dragging concrete is a better term for the way mine drew. The only way I could tolerate shooting that piece of junk for indoor competition was to turn it down to 48 pounds - I learned real quick to hate that bow. I sold it right after the IAA indoor Championship, 3 months after I bought it. And it wasn't that it shot bad. I finished 3rd in the State Championship and won a couple local 3Ds. In 2006 Bowtech released their Smoothy Cam system and that sure made one heck of difference.

Athens Excell 41" atat and Martin Shadowcat 41 1/2" ata; Shadowcat has a max 325 fps IBO. Excell has a 315 fps IBO. The Excell draws so easy, so smooth it puts the Shadowcat to shame.... Like I could care less about 10 fps.
Of course this is only related to speed as short brace height with less poundage does not aid forgiveness.

This was the first and only Athens I have ever seen in person. Someone had one at a fundraiser shoot this winter, He let me draw and shoot it...That cam system Athens has, seriously does put all others to shame.