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View Full Version : The super shooter at 65 yards!!!!!!



Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-05-2011, 01:25 PM
Hey guys, did some arrow work with The Super Shooter at 65 yards. MLN here you go seeing is believing. Same arrow same hole at 65yds
watch part1 and part2.

http://s745.photobucket.com/albums/xx94/Hutchnsonarchery/?action=view&current=100_0994.mp4





Hutch:cool:

bfisher
09-05-2011, 02:18 PM
Pretty impressive. I'll bet that took a bit of fine work to get it set up. Now can you do that with a bare shaft? LOL.

Thanks for sharing Hutch.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-05-2011, 02:43 PM
Well Barry, it only took 10 to 15 minutes. It is a simple machine. I put the bow in, draw it back look through the peep. Adjust the left and right lever, then adjust the up and down. Once set the bow shoots the same every time. But one thing it is very good for is checking out arrows. I have tuned and fixed more arrows with it. Saving time and money. As far as the bare shaft maybe with one of those old arrows.LOL!!!


Hutch:cool:

Destroyer
09-05-2011, 03:34 PM
The SS handles the shot better than I would have thought. Impressed!

MLN1963
09-05-2011, 03:54 PM
MLN got called out but for the wrong reason. I wanted to see a .006" arrow against a .001" to see if there really is a difference in performance or if it is just in the price.

Of course to make the Doubting Thomas's happy you need a clean sheet of paper to show that it is the same hole. BTW I am not a Doubting Thomas.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-05-2011, 04:35 PM
MLN got called out but for the wrong reason. I wanted to see a .006" arrow against a .001" to see if there really is a difference in performance or if it is just in the price.

Of course to make the Doubting Thomas's happy you need a clean sheet of paper to show that it is the same hole. BTW I am not a Doubting Thomas.Just kidding with you MLN. This was in regards to an old post where you were kidding with me, and said you would have to see it to believe it. But you just refreshed my mind about the other thread. About is there any difference or is it hype on straightness of arrows. When I have the time I will try to do that. You wanted to know if there is any major differences between .006 and .001 right?



Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
09-05-2011, 04:58 PM
Yeah, is there a real difference in the groups of the "crooked" arrows vs the "straight" arrows. My gut feeling is that there is not appreciable difference for hunting other than you feel you have a better arrow if you paid more for it. Maybe there is some at longer distances for target shooters. This is just a guess though. Of course I know you will start with squared arrow nocks and inserts to make for an even playing field! :cool:

Maybe you can try some of those $3 Carbon Exacta arrows from WM while you are at it. Robin hood's have never been so cheap! :rolleyes:

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-05-2011, 05:07 PM
MLN, I have never seen any difference in some of the customers arrows, that I have tuned. So I don't believe you guess is too far off. But I have hunted with cheap arrows and didn't feel so bad if I lost one. I am planning to buy some of those wm arrows made by Allen. I will test those and see. But mean while I am getting ready for hunting so it might be a while.


Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
09-05-2011, 06:12 PM
Those WM specials could be the ones you want to hunt with? LOL

Destroyer
09-05-2011, 06:44 PM
is there a real difference in the groups of the "crooked" arrows vs the "straight" arrows.

How are you going to test it anyway? You would need to fire a lot of shots with the different batches to rule out the other factors that influence accuracy. Plus the SS will probably shoot well regardless of arrow so any difference wont show up as much as with a average human archer with less than perfect form.

What shafts will you be using?

MLN1963
09-05-2011, 07:21 PM
How are you going to test it anyway? You would need to fire a lot of shots with the different batches to rule out the other factors that influence accuracy. Plus the SS will probably shoot well regardless of arrow so any difference wont show up as much as with a average human archer with less than perfect form.

I can understand how human error can affect the shot. Mess up with the bow and the arrow will not hit it's mark. However, the arrow is being sent by the bow and I don't see how human error has an affect on how the arrow flies when strictly testing different straightness' of arrows? I hope that made sense. Since you or I as humans can not do something perfectly the same over and over again, we all have good days and bad days, the only way to rule out the human error aspect and test the arrows is in a machine. IMO the Super Shooter seems to be quite capable of this.

From what I have read all arrows are cut from the same rod (within that series). They just cull out the straighter ones and set them aside to sell separately.

Maybe we can get enough donations to buy 3 straight and 3 crooked arrows of the same brand for Hutch to test. He can set them up exactly the same for his bow For his testing he can keep the arrows. Maybe all he needs is 3 more of the .001" arrows that are a match to the ones he just bought? I would be willing to donate some money to the cause. I'm broke, so some, not all! :cool:

MLN1963
09-05-2011, 07:31 PM
And when you buy 12 arrows how do you know you have all from the exact same batch? You don't unless you paid special for that. So just like in the real world, just get some and test them for what it is worth. You could make a mountain out of a mole hill real fast. I'm not trying to be an ***, I'm trying to be true to what the vast majority of people do. I bet even Sonny and Destroyer don't use the super expensive $30 each arrows for hunting. Am I wrong?

Destroyer
09-05-2011, 08:23 PM
I don't see how human error has an affect on how the arrow flies when strictly testing different straightness' of arrows?

You just can't test based on straightness though, your testing spine and weight as well. And spine is effected by the release and torquing the bow, etc.


IMO the Super Shooter seems to be quite capable of this.

Problem is the SS is too consistent to show the difference, like Sonny pointed out. I would be interested to see the results using the SS but don't go buying shafts just for for testing this out. It would take many dozens of arrows and hundreds of shoots to get enough data to prove anything, not even then. It hasn't been done before and might not be done ever.


I bet even Sonny and Destroyer don't use the super expensive $100 each arrows for hunting. Am I wrong?

LOL! Nope, can't afford too but if money wasn't a concern then I would be using some fancy camo .001"carbons with expensive heads instead of using Velocity Hunters with cheap heads. Would they shoot better and would I hit more critters? Of course It would, they're more expensive.... :p

MLN1963
09-06-2011, 04:58 AM
So now not only are certain bows more forgiving on the shot, certain arrows are too? I ain't buying that one. I will accept that longer A2A bows are more forgiving to shoot, but not arrows. You will have to show me evidence of this. So far no one has shown any evidence of this. All they have shown is highly paid archers who don't buy their own arrows, use the straight ones. This is great advertising and promotion of a product and that is all.

Again, all these multi-million, maybe billion, dollar companies making arrows and no empirical data is available to John Q. public. Why would that be? Maybe there is data out there and they are keeping it from John Q. public because it doesn't substantiate the prices they ask?

Have you ever heard this one? Dress nice for the job and you will feel good about yourself and do a better job. Buy a .001" arrow and you will feel good about your arrow and shoot better. Sound familiar?

Money Man
09-06-2011, 07:08 AM
Again, all these multi-million, maybe billion, dollar companies making arrows and no empirical data is available to John Q. public. Why would that be? Maybe there is data out there and they are keeping it from John Q. public because it doesn't substantiate the prices they ask?



Maybe we could contact an arrow company and see if they will give us a dozen arrows in .001, .003, and .006 We can tell them we want to test them and see if there is any difference. Since you can't shoot the same arrow twice without going in the same hole (using the super shooter), we will shoot each of the dozen arrows, and the dozen that groups the tightest should be the .001 if what they claim is true. I am betting you will not find a company to do that since it is probably a lot of nonsense. We could even let them use the video for advertising purposes if it works out in their favor. To be fair though, you would have to use the same arrows, with the only difference being the straightness factor. For example, I shoot Victory VForce. They come in .001, .003, and .006 I am shooting the .006 and am pretty happy with how the arrows fly.

MLN1963
09-06-2011, 07:57 AM
I have to believe that if Carbon Express, or any other manufacture, had irrefutable data that a given .001" straightness arrow of same brand, series and qualities were vastly superior in accuracy to a .006" straightness arrow they would be shouting from the tallest mountain about it. The only thing I see is them offering different straightness arrows for more money.

Granted, I am new and not been in a lot of nice shops. The only shops I have been in besides Cabela's and Bass Pro have a bin of arrows for all the different spines, flavors and such. Exactly what you won't buy. Cabela's and Bass Pro had dozen and half dozen boxes available. So when I had arrows made up it was luck of the draw I guess as I watched him pull them out of a bin of arrows. I recently ordered a Dz HT-2 (.006") from HTA so I hope they are better matched.

The CX Maxima Blue Streak Select is listed as a hunting arrow with .001 straightness.

This will never end so I guess I will try refrain from anymore comments. If anyone is willing to donate to the cause for a simple layman's test as mentioned above PM me. If we can talk Hutch into doing the work that is.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-06-2011, 12:01 PM
MLN, got some Wal-Mart arrows. So far they shoot pretty good. They are .0065 and 400 spine. Vanes are ugly! I will cut the arrows and see how they do. In house I have .003, .006, and now .0065.


Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
09-06-2011, 12:19 PM
Cut em to length, square em and re-vane em like your others and let us know how they shoot. How did you determine they are .400 spine? Did you get the 29" or 30" arrows? Which end are you cutting from, how do you get the insert free to reuse it?

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-06-2011, 12:51 PM
MLN, I got them 29" I can't remember which place I read they are 400 spine. But I know they are made by Allen, because the other box at Walmart read Allen company.


Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
09-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Okay, I thought you had made a spine tester. :cool:

Destroyer
09-06-2011, 02:54 PM
I have to believe that if Carbon Express, or any other manufacture, had irrefutable data that a given .001" straightness arrow of same brand, series and qualities were vastly superior in accuracy to a .006" straightness arrow they would be shouting from the tallest mountain about it.

They don't have to, a straighter arrow is more consistent in spine/weight so flight will be more consistent. 'vastly superior' probably not. Really we could look at it another way, the .001" are what the manufacturer aims to produce so .006" are seconds or thirds and we are getting them cheaper, somewhat. :rolleyes:


This will never end so I guess I will try refrain from anymore comments.

Yeah, try lol! ;)

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-06-2011, 03:58 PM
Okay, I thought you had made a spine tester. :cool:Nope but I think I will next project.


Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
09-06-2011, 06:52 PM
I'll bite D. We are talking a .005" inch difference. It is not like an arrow goes >>>-----_---___--------> From what I have read a 6' rod is made and then it is sliced into 32" sections of arrows. If at is the case how is the spine any different from one section to the next? They were made from the same rod. They cull out the straightest ones to collect the most money on.

So you think it is not vastly superior. Now tell me, just what difference you expect to see between two comparable arrows of each straightness. What amount really is justifiably more accurate and how can you validate it down to the gnats *** if you are shooting? By you, I mean a human, not Destroyer. A human that can't do the same thing every time like a machine.

Sonny, that is not irrefutable evidence, its advertising 101. Just like Martin Archery's "The fastest and most accurate bows in the world" It is all talk with nothing to back it up. However, I do believe it is their best shooting arrow ever.

When you guys load up a new rifle round and want to test it for accuracy do you do it from a standing position or do you use a shooting bench and vise? At the very least i bet you shoot from the prone position. Why would you do that for a rifle round and not an arrow?

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-07-2011, 12:48 AM
Hey guys, even the best arrows don't shoot all the same out of the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETBidXgLLug



Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
09-07-2011, 07:02 AM
MLN, got some Wal-Mart arrows. So far they shoot pretty good. They are .0065 and 400 spine. Vanes are ugly! I will cut the arrows and see how they do. In house I have .003, .006, and now .0065.


Hutch:cool:

Yeah, the vanes are ugly. I won't pay to have them replaced until it is needed. If I had a fletching jig I would do it right away. :cool:

I ran the $3 Carbon Exacta arrows and my HT2s thru the F.A.S.T. this morning. The Carbon Exactas took a bit more work to square up on the insert end and were only a few turns more to clean up on the nock end. They actually had less glue on them than my HTAs. I think they are going to be great knock around arrows for my kid.

MLN1963
09-07-2011, 09:30 AM
Something doesn't make sense to me. If the .006 arrows have/have more fiberglass in them that means that each line of arrow has at least two manufacturing methods. I find this very hard to believe.

Using HTA as an example (CX has too many series of arrows) every line of arrow (HT1, HT2, HT3,HT4) has .001", .003" and .006" options. That would mean that they have 2 or 3 manufacturing methods (recipes) for each arrow totaling 8 to 12 ways of making arrows. This just doesn't seem reasonable, practical or economical to me. Does it to you?

What I believe is they have a manufacturing method for each series of arrow: hunting, target, penetration and strive for a the standard (or minimum acceptable) straightness. That minimum standard seems to be .006" in this case. They cut the arrows and check them for straightness and sort accordingly. Now they sell them, more importantly price them, based on straightness. This just keeps it simple, but if they wanted to they could do it a bit differently.

I think, just think as I have no proof, this is what some manufactures do. They'll call the .006 arrows a different name altogether than the .003" or .001" arrows. Say Predator and Mutiny for example. From a marketing stand point this makes sense, maybe having 3 versions of one arrow would make it seem like they have seconds or thirds when that isn't the case. This could be why some arrow manufactures line-up seems so bloated. Maybe some of the smaller guys can't afford all the advertising, cataloging and such to do it that way?

Yes, I would like to see proof that a .001" arrow is superior to a .006". And just how much superior in the form of real hard data. Preferably by an independent testing agency. If such an animal existed proving this I am positive that they (arrow manufacturers) would be citing that study to sell more high dollar arrows. Why wouldn't they? On the other hand if it did exist and the evidence showed there is no real advantage, maybe even because there are too many variables out of their control, then they would be wise not to bring it up.

Even if the .001s have a smaller average group is it enough to justify the cost difference? Say at 100 yards (it was said it shows at further distances) the .001s hold an average of 3 inches and the lowly old .006s hold an average of 8 inches does that make them worth the 50% increase in price? Maybe, maybe not, since the average deer is taken at 19 yards and the group averages would be much smaller. Maybe this is the kind of info that arrow manufactures think is best kept close to the vest?

To me it is easier to sell something to someone's emotions than to sell something based on empirical data. E.G. The top shooters use these arrows so they must be better. These cost more so they must be better. These guys spend millions of advertising on hunting shows and in hunting magazines so they must be better. These are straighter so they must be better.

My parable of the rifle cartridge was not to say one needed a hooter shooter to test their arrows. It was to illustrate that if you are testing something for accuracy you would do it on the most stable platform available verses the least stable. Just as you do when testing your cartridges. It was put out there that testing in the super shooter would be invalid and I highly disagree with that.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-07-2011, 10:42 AM
Yeah, the vanes are ugly. I won't pay to have them replaced until it is needed. If I had a fletching jig I would do it right away. :cool:

I ran the $3 Carbon Exacta arrows and my HT2s thru the F.A.S.T. this morning. The Carbon Exactas took a bit more work to square up on the insert end and were only a few turns more to clean up on the nock end. They actually had less glue on them than my HTAs. I think they are going to be great knock around arrows for my kid.Play arrows, is all I am looking at. But still my Daughter hits great with them and they gave no issues cutting in the arrow saw. Squared them up like good little fellas. But I am going to make one of these to help see what I am buying. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1558629


Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
09-07-2011, 10:43 AM
Regardless of what you think arrow manufacturers make arrows for every archery venue and for people who can't afford a higher quality arrow. Someone is going to pay to have that higher quality arrow. I agree with that too.

MLN1963
09-07-2011, 10:47 AM
Play arrows, is all I am looking at. But still my Daughter hits great with them and they gave no issues cutting in the arrow saw. Squared them up like good little fellas. But I am going to make one of these to help see what I am buying. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1558629Hutch:cool: Did you reuse the insert or use another? What kind did you use?

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-07-2011, 11:05 AM
I reused the insert. A razor knife and a few cuts all done.



Hutch:cool:

Irish Sitka
09-08-2011, 06:18 AM
Looks good Hutch, cannot wait to see it in action myself, almost complete.
Paint ready to apply, must collect winch and trigger and I am all set.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-11-2011, 02:06 AM
Anyone that wants plans pm me your email address. It is simple to make.


Hutch:cool:

Destroyer
09-11-2011, 04:38 PM
BIG thank you for the plans Hutch! :D

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-13-2011, 04:00 PM
BIG thank you for the plans Hutch! :DYour welcome! I have approximately 400 plans out around the world. I have a few pics of ones built. They have built them out of 1"copper, square tube, gas pipe, and all sorts of things. Mine cost $60 to $70 dollars. if you were to buy one it would cost $700 to $5000 yikes. I will build my own for that much. Even if you don't weld cut it all out and have some one weld it. It is a tool that I can't do with out.



Hutch:cool:

droppixel
09-23-2011, 08:52 AM
THIS IS AWESOME! yes caps were intended ;)

Hutch~n~Son Archery
09-23-2011, 12:39 PM
Thanks for the caps droppixel. The Super shooter has made my life easier.


Hutch:cool:

gravedigger
09-23-2011, 12:45 PM
i want to build one.that is a tool i know at least 7 people would get good use out of.more so me

Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-10-2012, 04:22 PM
sent this too diy please!







Hutch:cool: