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View Full Version : Martins not making speed?



Thermodude
02-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Just curious becuase over on AT all I read is how off the mark Martins are on the speed rating. Im not expecting a fireball out of the Pantera Ive got on order but Im at least hoping its in line with the Diamonds Ive had . I shoot 70#s at 29" draw.......my arrows weigh 366 grains.........the last one cam I had was a Diamond Tech Hunter Elite and I was getting 313 out of it. Im not a speed freak but I do expect a bow that posts IBO speeds to at least be in the ballpark.

ramsey2007
02-07-2012, 04:03 PM
its not a martin thing my new hoyt maxxis only was at 289 74lbs 27.5 draw,

droppixel
02-07-2012, 04:08 PM
I think the "re-test" that Ike did on the 2011 Onza that Martin sent him, it proves they will make IBO if set up absolutely perfectly. The bow they sent was direct from them, set up exactly as it should have been and he was getting 338s

So I'm sure if they aren't tuned properly or if there is something off, clearly they aren't going to match up to their ratings.

Thermodude
02-07-2012, 04:13 PM
I did see that speed test, and I agree it did make 338.................I guess Im just up in the air from all the stuff Im reading about the Fury Xt......and the one cam Martins.............you are 100% in saying that its all about tuning..........................wow, Id prolly be right as rain if mine would just get here ...........:eek:

Skbengal
02-07-2012, 05:13 PM
Check out Archerx7's review on the pantera. It'll give you an idea of what to expect.

MLN1963
02-07-2012, 05:52 PM
ArcherX7 did some speed testing on a Pantera and Bengal and they were right on target according to the calculator I used. I know someone will come on here and say speed isn't important, and that may very well be true, but if I buy a bow that says it will do xxx IBO I expect it do it and not be way off.

madman350
02-08-2012, 02:08 AM
I think the "re-test" that Ike did on the 2011 Onza that Martin sent him, it proves they will make IBO if set up absolutely perfectly. The bow they sent was direct from them, set up exactly as it should have been and he was getting 338s

So I'm sure if they aren't tuned properly or if there is something off, clearly they aren't going to match up to their ratings.

what about the bows that come straight from wholesale sporting distributors who've never touch/adjusted the bow? every new bow that leaves a factory in a box, should already been setup "perfectly" per manufacturing and particular models specs. so any new bow , from any manufacturer ought to be real close to ibo out of the box before the thing received any adjustment and then a proshop gets blamed for poor tuning .
these "naked " arrow tests to help a bow eke out that extra fps are garbage . who cares how fast your new sports car accelerates if you have to remove the seats, etc or the test was done with a ten pound driver aiming downhill, to make it hit its claimed 0-60?

MLN1963
02-08-2012, 04:53 AM
what about the bows that come straight from wholesale sporting distributors who've never touch/adjusted the bow? every new bow that leaves a factory in a box, should already been setup "perfectly" per manufacturing and particular models specs. so any new bow , from any manufacturer ought to be real close to ibo out of the box before the thing received any adjustment and then a proshop gets blamed for poor tuning .
these "naked " arrow tests to help a bow eke out that extra fps are garbage . who cares how fast your new sports car accelerates if you have to remove the seats, etc or the test was done with a ten pound driver aiming downhill, to make it hit its claimed 0-60?

I agree, I have never given any credibility to that retest and often wondered if Ike was made to do another video? Of course they can make a bow do IBO on a one time basis. They all should come out of the factory that way. Now that you mention it ArcherX7 did a few tweaks to the ones he tested too. Of course I'm just a guy who expects what he pays for.

Thermodude
02-08-2012, 01:14 PM
I too expect to get what I pay for, but Ive been around long enough to know that there is allways fine print. In no way am I trying to say that Martin bows do not match labeled claims, the reason for my post was only to address posts on this issue that Ive read many times. The subject of bow companies claims falling short isnt a new one, this is a subject that has been around in forums over and over. The bottom line is that as it is with life, text book data and real life reality dosnt match. We as archers are a very diverse crowd, some are happy to accept things as they are ... others work to apply aquired knowledge to milk every ounce of performance that they can from their bow. My new Martin will arrive in a few days....weeks, Im not sure but it will come and when it does Im gonna do my best to tweek everything I can out of it............its my nature!!!.................:cool:

Skbengal
02-08-2012, 01:37 PM
Sounds like a pretty good attitude!

wscywabbit
02-08-2012, 01:46 PM
Just food for thought, the Pantera is rated 320-330 fps. By plugging your specs into the backcountry bowhunting calculator, and only having a peep and dloop on the string (20 grains), it puts your speeds between 299 and 309 fps.

In order to get your 313, you're gonna need an IBO of 335 or more.

One of the biggest errors I see on the forums (not just this one) when it comes to speed, is that people seem to assume that even with different draw lengths/ arrow weights, etc. they should get close to IBO.

I have a fairly short draw, my Onza is fairly well tuned, my arrows are heavier than IBO specs (396 grains), and the fastest I've been able to eak out of it is 279, but consistantly get 274-275. I just redid the serving on the string (reduced it to 4" instead of 9"), re-served my peep, am switching to feathers instead of vanes, and am going to try a drop away instead of my whisker biscuit. I'll let you know how much of a difference that makes.

I did most of this out of boredom and tinkeritus than a real "need for speed". :p

Thermodude
02-08-2012, 02:50 PM
Just food for thought, the Pantera is rated 320-330 fps. By plugging your specs into the backcountry bowhunting calculator, and only having a peep and dloop on the string (20 grains), it puts your speeds between 299 and 309 fps.

In order to get your 313, you're gonna need an IBO of 335 or more.

One of the biggest errors I see on the forums (not just this one) when it comes to speed, is that people seem to assume that even with different draw lengths/ arrow weights, etc. they should get close to IBO.

I have a fairly short draw, my Onza is fairly well tuned, my arrows are heavier than IBO specs (396 grains), and the fastest I've been able to eak out of it is 279, but consistantly get 274-275. I just redid the serving on the string (reduced it to 4" instead of 9"), re-served my peep, am switching to feathers instead of vanes, and am going to try a drop away instead of my whisker biscuit. I'll let you know how much of a difference that makes.

I did most of this out of boredom and tinkeritus than a real "need for speed". :p



Checked the weight of the arrows that I spoke about in my earlier posts and I was wrong about the weight......they dont weigh 366grns........they weigh 352grns.......................my bad.

Ehunter
02-08-2012, 03:21 PM
Most all of my Martins will hit IBO, but it is at the low end of their rated IBO. Never got into the upper 330's or low 340's. Good rule of thumb on any brand is to take 7-10 fps off the advertised IBO, and work from there. On utopiaprogramming, I'm getting that you should get about 303 fps with your setup.

bfisher
02-08-2012, 04:12 PM
I don't put much faith in those internet calculators. Several years ago I was shooting for Pearson and had a bow that, according to Backcountry, should have been shooting 294 fps. I had my own chrono at the time and all that bow would do was 264 fps; fully 30 fps less than the chart. Not that I was disappointed. This was quite an ordinary speed with almost any bow I had owned in the past.

Right now I own two Rytera bows that shoot right at 275 fps. IBO rated at 335 fps, but my draw length is 27 1/8" and shooting 5 gr/lb at various draw weights. The only thing on the string is a 1/4" Specialty peep and a tied-on nockset. I could probably take the time and effort to really fine tune them to get maybe 280 fps or so, but the last few years I "got real" and left speed by the wayside in favor of shootability.

I did have a 2004 Slayr with B Nitrous cams that would hit 299 fps at 53# and a 275 grain arrow, but that has been the exception.

wscywabbit
02-08-2012, 05:16 PM
I'm with you Barry, I use the computer calculators as a guestimate, a ball parker. If I plug in my true draw,the Backcountry Calculator tells me I should be shooting 280, which is only about 5 fps faster than what I'm actually getting. If I put in my AMO draw (which is what most of these calculators seem to use), it puts me at 298. A full 23-25 fps faster than what I'm actually getting. I get the same type of results when I use my On Target 2 software. I think there are just too many variables in individual setups for these calculators to be real accurate.

jim7777
02-17-2012, 07:34 PM
I'm new to all this but my 2011 Onza3 is slow to the best of my knowledge. I'm not sure that 260fps is anywhere near the advertised speed. It was so noisy I had to add a couple of silencers on the string but I don't know. At 60#, 27.5" draw, 366gr arrow am I close to what it should be? I have no idea. Any comments would be appreciated and maybe any suggestions.

MLN1963
02-17-2012, 07:57 PM
IBO speed is at 70# and 30" draw. Going down to 60 pounds you are going to loose speed, going to 27.5" draw you are going to loose a lot of speed. Martin puts way too much center serving on their strings in my opinion (I had around 13" on my FC400!) which brings the speed down. Do you use a tube sight? If you do that slows it down.

That said, you can find calculators to give you an idea of what you should expect. My bow was very slow initially. After I re-timed it and removed a load of serving it was much closer to the calculator, but still not there. My brother and two other guys with their brand new bows (2 Invasions and a D340) were all within 2 FPS of the same calculator using the same Chrono on the same night, arrows weighed on the same scale, the same scale was used to measure draw weight. In other words we took about as many variables out of the equation as we could. So when the guys with rose colored glasses come in here and say don't believe calculators I will ask why did 3 out of 4 bows come close and my bow didn't? Incidentally the brand they will be defending will be the brand that came in about 15 FPS slow.

Ehunter
02-18-2012, 09:19 AM
jim7777,

I don't think the online calculators are dead on, but they have always been pretty darn close for me. I checked your setup with the two calc's. I use, and it shows you should be around 278-279, provided you only have a peep and D-loop on the string. That's going off a base IBO of 335 for the Onza. Midrange for what Martin lists (330-340).

wscywabbit
02-18-2012, 10:53 AM
IBO speed is at 70# and 30" draw. Going down to 60 pounds you are going to loose speed, going to 27.5" draw you are going to loose a lot of speed. Martin puts way too much center serving on their strings in my opinion (I had around 13" on my FC400!) which brings the speed down. Do you use a tube sight? If you do that slows it down.

In a previous entry I said I had made some changes to my bow, including re-serving the center section to get rid of allot of extra string. I reduced the amount of serving on my peep, and shortened the center section to 4" instead of 9". But I added about an 1.25" of serving where my string stop hits, the string was looking a little fuzzy there. On top of that, I also went to feathers instead of Blazers, losing over 13 grains of weight on my arrows in the process. What did all this get me? 7-9 fps. Not bad, IMO. Worth all the work? I don't know, but it was kinda fun. :)


I'm new to all this but my 2011 Onza3 is slow to the best of my knowledge. I'm not sure that 260fps is anywhere near the advertised speed. It was so noisy I had to add a couple of silencers on the string but I don't know. At 60#, 27.5" draw, 366gr arrow am I close to what it should be? I have no idea. Any comments would be appreciated and maybe any suggestions.

I used Backcountry Bowhunting's calculator on your setups, and here's what I got:

25.75" draw (True draw) = 262 fps
27.5" draw (AMO) = 279

I don't know why, but almost every calculator I use is way closer to real speeds when I plug in true draw instead of AMO :confused:

jim7777
02-19-2012, 02:13 PM
Everyone, you have given me some things to check out. Really appreciate it. I love to play so in the end may have to take my bow into a shop but I'll have to try myself first. I think if I could reach to high 270's I'd be happy. I believe that my Hoyt Vetrix is in the high 260's. I have added string silencers. I do use a D loop and a no tube sight. I'm not sure I want to go to lighter arrows though. Need the weight for hunting I believe, mule deer and elk. Anyway I have some directions now with all your help.

WileyJ
02-19-2012, 03:36 PM
I'm not at all concerned about speed myself either, but my Onza 3 is not even in the 310 fps rangeI am at 29 1/2" draw range at 70# and shooting 374 grain arrows, wisker biscuit, no tube peep and d-loop! I dont care about the speed thing and dont know one thing about tuneing, this is not where I expected to be!

droppixel
02-19-2012, 04:40 PM
I'm not at all concerned about speed myself either, but my Onza 3 is not even in the 310 fps rangeI am at 29 1/2" draw range at 70# and shooting 374 grain arrows, wisker biscuit, no tube peep and d-loop! I dont care about the speed thing and dont know one thing about tuneing, this is not where I expected to be!

You should be, I'd think! I'd start with cam timing. Check and make sure they are synced up properly and things should change for sure. Can't imagine a biscuit would be slowing you down that much.

WileyJ
02-19-2012, 04:57 PM
Its been checked, a few times, when I had my new cabels put on I had it checked, no peep, no d-loop, no serving, set to 30", shot off prong style rest, 350 grain arrow no fletching and the bow hit 338fps! Serving, d-loop, peep, wisker biscuit, fletchings, 24 more grains! I dont know alot about bow tuning, but my bow guy does, he says this is a great performing bow, (hoyt/bowtech dealer) as I said, not concerned about the speed loss, its a given, no bow manufactures hit their IBO, unless your completely in or above IBO specs!

jdduffy
02-19-2012, 11:48 PM
I just got my new scepter,other than not coming close to their IBO rating it is a great shooting bow.in spec and timed on a draw board the best I can get is 301fps at 59lbs and 30" with a 308 gr arrow.this bow would never make 320,EVER.it has the same cams as my shadowcat,smaller brace and shorter string and it's slower.anyone else seeing this with the scepters?

bcriner
02-20-2012, 11:01 AM
I just got my new scepter,other than not coming close to their IBO rating it is a great shooting bow.in spec and timed on a draw board the best I can get is 301fps at 59lbs and 30" with a 308 gr arrow.this bow would never make 320,EVER.it has the same cams as my shadowcat,smaller brace and shorter string and it's slower.anyone else seeing this with the scepters?

My experience exactly. 310 is the best I could get. Not even close to IBO. Normally, I can end up a few fps under or right on the low end of the advertised IBO. Not in this case. My Shadowcat does 312...my Scepter V does 310.

bcriner
02-20-2012, 11:03 AM
I just got my new scepter,other than not coming close to their IBO rating it is a great shooting bow.in spec and timed on a draw board the best I can get is 301fps at 59lbs and 30" with a 308 gr arrow.this bow would never make 320,EVER.it has the same cams as my shadowcat,smaller brace and shorter string and it's slower.anyone else seeing this with the scepters?

Are your limbs 60lbs max? If so, what is your deflection numbers? Mine was supposed to be 60lbs and came in maxed out and would only do 56lbs.

jdduffy
02-20-2012, 12:18 PM
Are your limbs 60lbs max? If so, what is your deflection numbers? Mine was supposed to be 60lbs and came in maxed out and would only do 56lbs.

mine are 60lb limbs 1Hp,mine max out below 59lbs.

droppixel
02-20-2012, 12:43 PM
If you are under max poundage, from what I know - check the cable lengths to bring the poundage up.

jdduffy
02-20-2012, 01:15 PM
If you are under max poundage, from what I know - check the cable lengths to bring the poundage up.

1lb of draw weight is not going to get this anywhere near the advertised speed.the string and cables and ata and brace height are spot on.and so is the cam rotation.

WileyJ
02-20-2012, 01:31 PM
IBO speeds are measured with a bow at 70# draw weight, 30" draw length, 350 grain bare arrow, no peep, no loop, no serving! Its hard, real hard to hit IBO speeds with all the extras making this big of an impact on the speed with just a little bit on the string, let alone the weight of the arrow!

jdduffy
02-21-2012, 01:16 AM
IBO speeds are measured with a bow at 70# draw weight, 30" draw length, 350 grain bare arrow, no peep, no loop, no serving! Its hard, real hard to hit IBO speeds with all the extras making this big of an impact on the speed with just a little bit on the string, let alone the weight of the arrow!

I know how IBO works,that's why I'm saying this will never even make the low end of listed speeds.

Gabriel454
02-21-2012, 04:09 AM
Seems to me like the bow manufacturers may be suffering from the same assumptions that car stereo amplifier companies do which goes like this:

"If we don't put outrageous numbers on the box nobody will buy it."

Car amps will usually only output 1/16th of the total wattage that the box says it will because they take the amplifier out of it's component case and freeze it with liquid nitrogen and then can get 10,000watts out of it where in real life inside the car inside the component case with less than desired ventilation (It's always less than desired.) it would overheat and catch fire in less than one bass beat and it's output in a realistic environment is less than 800watts. In reality only one watt of power with a decently sensitive subwoofer speaker made to run off only one watt would output better quality sound at the same, or higher, decibels with less distortion, battery drain...etc.