PDA

View Full Version : I'm interested in buying a Martin bow



Gabriel454
02-14-2012, 12:54 AM
I am new to archery... well sort of. I used to shoot in pathfinders, a church organization like scouts, when I was a kid and could shoot pretty well when I was 11.

So, basically I'm new, just have natural talent if you will.

Anyways I don't have any idea what modern bows are like. I would just go to the nearest archery shop and look around and ask questions, but the nearest one is 30 miles away and I don't have a car. I can't get someone else to drive me there, and therefore I can't get there. They DO sell Martin bows though. =0)

My question is what makes the threshold less expensive than other Martin bows? I fail to see much of a difference between it and say a $500.00 bow.

All the current stats for bows seem to be mainly hype based off figures that are dynamic and have nothing to do with accuracy. Again, I'm new so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah the more expensive bow will shoot a little faster, but isn't the 'speed' of a bow relative to the size and weight of arrow shot from it and the poundage set? If that is fact, speed is not going to be the same across all bows in a given price range and therefore a really really horrible way to compare bows. Right? I mean who says that the "fastest bow in the world" isn't shooting a tiny 190grain structural foam arrow at 450fps? If that is the case, I could probably make my Martin Lynx magnum shoot 350fps at least once or twice by changing cams, cranking up the poundage, and firing it into a vacuum. (Don't try this at home...)

What about accuracy? I never see anything stating that at 150yds this bow will shoot a 3 inch group of 5 arrows. Doesn't tuning matter more than anything else when it comes to accuracy? Lets say that a bow was tuned properly by a professional and then fired from a vice. The results of a test like that would be more meaningful to me than speed, brace height... yada yada.

Speaking of brace height, how about a power rating? Couldn't there be a rating that shows the ratios between poundage, power stroke, and actual energy released during the power stroke? That might be something I would like to compare between bows, right after accuracy that is.

Last, but not least, quality. There is nothing saying how many times a bow can actually be fired. or dry fired even :confused: You wouldn't buy a tire that is only going to work for 1,000 miles, why pay big bucks for a bow that would only work for 1,000 shots. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but a bow can only be shot so many times before it starts to fail just like an aluminum bar can only be bent so many times before it fails.

In conclusion, I see no real data being displayed about the quality of a given bow. It just doesn't exist. I'd like to see a bow shot in a vice like a rifle is so that I know if that bow is the one I want because, to me, accuracy is paramount. I personally don't even care if my bow is 3.6lbs or 3.8lbs. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that a bow is 3.6lbs with a center of gravity at such and such a position with the included accessories that way I know more what I'm looking for? Balance is important to me too but only because I want a bow with sights. If I were shooting completely by instinct, which I can, then it might not matter as much.

bowgramp59
02-14-2012, 04:08 AM
all bows are the same i don't care if it is a mathews, hoyt, martin, bear, a compound bow if set right , rest in the center, at 90 degree to the string, the right spine arrow in other words tuned as close to perfict as possible, they all do the same thing. they all have a string tied to a set of wheeles ,pull it back and let it go, one cam might have a different curve than another, there is only so many curves that can be tried on a cam, in my opinion there are several cams on bows right now that have the same geometric design . you can take several bows from differant archery companys if tuned properly and shoot them in a vice or a shooting device will do the same thing . it is the person behind the string that determins the accuracy of a compound bow. each person has to choose what archery co. he or she is compfertable with and stick with them. i chose martin
because first of all i like the looks of thier risers on most of thier bows and thier great customer service which i haven't had to use all that much but when you do they treat you right . now if you want a good all around bow to shoot the onza 3 or alien xt would be my choice , i think if you ask 10 different people you will get at least 8 different answers. there are some areas at martin that have room for improvement as with all companys. all said & done i'm very sastified with my choice. [ J M O ] to answer your question they give me all the
stats i need draw wt. , draw length, capable speed, ata , brace ht , string & cable length . its up to the buyer to properly tune the bow for maximum performance

kylecurtis04
02-14-2012, 04:52 AM
Your poll question is very broad. Are the stats good enough for what? For modern day technology? For the consumer to be satisfied? For the bow to meet the designated numbers? Please explain what you are trying to get out of the poll and what the real question is. Thanks.

Gabriel454
02-14-2012, 04:55 AM
Your poll question is very broad. Are the stats good enough for what? For modern day technology? For the consumer to be satisfied? For the bow to meet the designated numbers? Please explain what you are trying to get out of the poll and what the real question is. Thanks.

I mean to really be able to pick out the best bow for the money.

Spiker
02-14-2012, 04:58 AM
"Last, but not least, quality. There is nothing saying how many times a bow can actually be fired. or dry fired even :confused: You wouldn't buy a tire that is only going to work for 1,000 miles, why pay big bucks for a bow that would only work for 1,000 shots. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but a bow can only be shot so many times before it starts to fail just like an aluminum bar can only be bent so many times before it fails. "


I have a couple early '90's Martins that probably have around 100,000 shots thru them (or more) and there still isn't anthing wrong with them.
Never replaced anything on them but strings and rests...

Comparing an aluminum bar to a bow limb is not apples to apples.

Gabriel454
02-14-2012, 04:59 AM
its up to the buyer to properly tune the bow for maximum performance

Okay, but I still think some bows will be more accurate than others even if the same person tunes them up.

EDIT:: I mean I had this old York USA bow that no matter what you did to it, move the rest, move anything on it, it did not matter, it would shoot an inch right on the first shot and an inch left on the next. No matter what you did to it the trajectory was always just sloppy and off.

Spiker
02-14-2012, 05:05 AM
On another note - since you are a beginner, the Threshold would be a great bow to start out with. As you said, it is inexpensive. Buy one and shoot it for a year,
then you will see how it holds up, what you like and dont like about it etc...
This will give you a ton of personal insight as to what sort of 'high end' bow you want to invest your money on.

Gabriel454
02-14-2012, 05:05 AM
"Last, but not least, quality. There is nothing saying how many times a bow can actually be fired. or dry fired even :confused: You wouldn't buy a tire that is only going to work for 1,000 miles, why pay big bucks for a bow that would only work for 1,000 shots. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but a bow can only be shot so many times before it starts to fail just like an aluminum bar can only be bent so many times before it fails. "


I have a couple early '90's Martins that probably have around 100,000 shots thru them (or more) and there still isn't anthing wrong with them.
Never replaced anything on them but strings and rests...

Comparing an aluminum bar to a bow limb is not apples to apples.

Okay maybe wrong comparison, but other bows, perhaps martin is an exception, will loose their stuff eventually. My old York USA bow as an example, the more I shot it, the worse it got till I finally pawned it and never went back for it. LOL!

Spiker
02-14-2012, 05:07 AM
Okay maybe wrong comparison, but other bows, perhaps martin is an exception, will loose their stuff eventually. My old York USA bow as an example, the more I shot it, the worse it got till I finally pawned it and never went back for it. LOL!

"I have a couple early '90's Martins that probably have around 100,000 shots thru them (or more) and there still isn't anthing wrong with them.
Never replaced anything on them but strings and rests..."

I still shoot these bows and they still max out at the same draw weight as they did when new.

Gabriel454
02-14-2012, 05:11 AM
"I have a couple early '90's Martins that probably have around 100,000 shots thru them (or more) and there still isn't anthing wrong with them.
Never replaced anything on them but strings and rests..."

I still shoot these bows and they still max out at the same draw weight as they did when new.

All the more reason to go with Martin then? LOL! I bought one that I thought was newer than it is. It is a Martin Lynx Magnum. It is not set up right or anything, but I can still hit pretty close to what I'm aiming at. Well, till I dropped it and knocked the sight all whacky. Now It needs a new string cause I tore three strands off it with my coat zipper when carrying it around and changing hands. I like it a lot even though it is old and slow.

kylecurtis04
02-14-2012, 05:19 AM
I mean to really be able to pick out the best bow for the money.

Picking out the best bow for the money really comes down to YOU. What bow is going to suite your needs and what bow meet all the criteria you have. Every person is different. Person A could think that a $1,000 Hoyt Element is the best bow for the money while Person B feels that a $600 Bowtech Assassin is the best bow for the money. It really comes down to us as the consumer making our own decision and not being pulled one way or another by other consumers. You need to shoot a bunch of bows, look at all the pro's & con's of each bow, ask yourself if you can justify spending X dollars for that bow and then make a clear and concise decision.

gravedigger
02-14-2012, 05:45 AM
i have not shot every bow on the market so i cant comment on all bows out ther.i have only shot a few martins,and a hoyt at a pro shop.i did not like the hoyt and for a few reasons but each martin i put in my hand felt great.so i really dont know how to help on this one.

i will say that martin has the best CS on the market,a great group of people who stand behind them,and is just a good all around bow.i will not and never will spend a insane amout of cash on a bow.i love to shoot but i like to be able to pay my bills at the end of the month.so do as everyone will tell you,go shoot some bows.

where in washington are you?

Double S
02-14-2012, 05:01 PM
Picking out the best bow for the money really comes down to YOU. What bow is going to suite your needs and what bow meet all the criteria you have. Every person is different. Person A could think that a $1,000 Hoyt Element is the best bow for the money while Person B feels that a $600 Bowtech Assassin is the best bow for the money. It really comes down to us as the consumer making our own decision and not being pulled one way or another by other consumers. You need to shoot a bunch of bows, look at all the pro's & con's of each bow, ask yourself if you can justify spending X dollars for that bow and then make a clear and concise decision.

I agree with what you said. I've stated it in the forum before. As a Martin fan I would like for you to shoot a Martin bow. I tell people to have the bow pick you. You'll need to visit a Martin Dealer. pick the dealers brain and test shoot different bow in different Draw weights, and ATA's. After shooting a couple you'll get a feel for which one best fits your shooting style, balance, Performance and of course the looks of the bow. I think buying a bow is like getting a tuxedo fitted. They might all look similar but they need to be tailored to your measurements and you'll need to " fit it" so that it's comfortable in your hands. You can only do so by visiting a Martin Dealer. What I might think as a comfortable and light bow might be uncomfortable and heavy to another archer.

Gabriel454
02-14-2012, 07:32 PM
where in washington are you?

Buckley, way out in the middle of nowhere where all the bow shops have gone the way of the dodo bird and become extinct. LOL!

gravedigger
02-14-2012, 07:50 PM
Buckley, way out in the middle of nowhere where all the bow shops have gone the way of the dodo bird and become extinct. LOL!

dang that is out ther.a bit over 3 hours from me

Gabriel454
02-14-2012, 10:33 PM
What I might think as a comfortable and light bow might be uncomfortable and heavy to another archer.

Well, it is very unlikely that I can get to a dealer. I am thinking of buying the Martin Threshold anyways.

Gabriel454
02-15-2012, 11:35 PM
This manufacturer gives you a kinetic energy rating like I was talking about YAY! I wish I had more to compare if not just for the fun of it.

http://www.bowtecharchery.com/#/productBreakdown?r=products_products&i=38

98ft-lbs!! Yeesh that seems like a LOT!

Speedykills
02-16-2012, 02:30 AM
Yes, they are

Ehunter
02-16-2012, 02:39 AM
They are giving you a KE spec, but I'm willing to bet it isn't with a 70# bow at IBO specs. Most of my Martin bows put out around 76-77# KE. That's enough to kill ANYTHING I'll ever hunt and more. KE is like anything else. Manufacturers can play with the numbers to get whatever they want.

Gabriel454
02-16-2012, 07:18 AM
They are giving you a KE spec, but I'm willing to bet it isn't with a 70# bow at IBO specs. Most of my Martin bows put out around 76-77# KE. That's enough to kill ANYTHING I'll ever hunt and more. KE is like anything else. Manufacturers can play with the numbers to get whatever they want.

So, if you are getting 76-77# KE with a 70# draw then that is 108.4% -110% of the draw weight. So, 98# KE is 122.5% of 80# draw which means that this bow's limb is more efficient right?

Yes, they are using more than 70# bows, they are using 80# bows. If they have the same limb weight then that means that their limbs can probably deliver more KE than yours per ounce of limb weight. Therefore they could make the bow lighter rather than have a huge KE spec which really does nothing but punch through stuff at the other end of the shot right? If they could transfer the energy at a faster rate then they would have a faster bow.

So, what does that mean?

It means that whatever they are doing to get the higher KE might be worth it if they used it right. =0) LOL! I think this high KE is actually an effect of their limb design and not an effect of their intelligence. Otherwise they would have a lighter, more efficient, bow with lower KE that *still shoots the same speed* because the speed relies on the rate at which the mechanics can transfer the total force. So, they could possibly have a bow limb that is 12% lighter and still have more punching power at the other end of the range than they did before they changed their bow limbs. (Rough estimates/educated guesses only) ((This is not anywhere near everything involved in the pros and cons of their limb design))

I'm guessing a little here, but I understand physics enough to be able to make an educated guess at least. =0) The thing that makes a bow faster or slower, is the rate at which the bow can transfer the total kinetic energy into the arrow. So, having a lower KE might actually allow the mechanics to transfer this smaller load faster/more easily with a lighter limb mass because it is having to transfer less energy through the power stroke and may be able to do that at a faster rate.

So, in order to know if I'm getting the best balance between weight, energy released, and speed it is still beneficial to see more of the numbers involved in the overall equation. Yeah, one bow might be carbon fiber, shoot well, and look awesome, but it might still be a pile of inefficient junk compared to the next bow down the line.

My 20 cents

EDIT:: *to * Should read: at a faster rate, and not still at the same speed... err whatever... LOL!

TEN RING
02-16-2012, 09:39 AM
if you have a bow that shoot 300 fps with a 350 gr. arrow and say 75 lb of ke to gain 5 extra pounds of ke you have to shoot a 650 gr. arrow at 200 fps or close to that

there are alot of good bows out there the amount you spent on it doesn't alway make one better or worst it's more about the feel of the bow I just switch from elite to martin I liked the feel of the bow more so the draw cycle but thats me you will find out more about the feel that you like and what you like the more you shoot

wscywabbit
02-16-2012, 09:51 AM
Let me try and take a crack at some of this lol :p





My question is what makes the threshold less expensive than other Martin bows? I fail to see much of a difference between it and say a $500.00 bow.

The threshold is a good bow, but contains some older technology; if I'm not mistaken it uses an older limb pocket design, less aggressive limb posturing (non-parallel), and an older cam/wheel system.

All the current stats for bows seem to be mainly hype based off figures that are dynamic and have nothing to do with accuracy. Again, I'm new so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah the more expensive bow will shoot a little faster, but isn't the 'speed' of a bow relative to the size and weight of arrow shot from it and the poundage set? If that is fact, speed is not going to be the same across all bows in a given price range and therefore a really really horrible way to compare bows. Right? I mean who says that the "fastest bow in the world" isn't shooting a tiny 190grain structural foam arrow at 450fps? If that is the case, I could probably make my Martin Lynx magnum shoot 350fps at least once or twice by changing cams, cranking up the poundage, and firing it into a vacuum. (Don't try this at home...)


The current stats system is more about giving a baseline for what a bow is capable of. The IBO system lets you know that each individual bow, if set up at 70 ft/lbs, 30" of AMO draw length, shooting a 350 grain arrow, would shoot X fps. Its the only real way to fairly compare bows.

What about accuracy? I never see anything stating that at 150yds this bow will shoot a 3 inch group of 5 arrows. Doesn't tuning matter more than anything else when it comes to accuracy? Lets say that a bow was tuned properly by a professional and then fired from a vice. The results of a test like that would be more meaningful to me than speed, brace height... yada yada.

Archery is about repetition, you do the same things the same way every time, to get the same results. Even a poorly tuned bow, if shot the same way every time will have the same point of impact, every time. Put any bow in a mechanical shooter, and you will see that this is so. The variable in archery isn't the equipment, its the shooter. ;)

Last, but not least, quality. There is nothing saying how many times a bow can actually be fired. or dry fired even :confused: You wouldn't buy a tire that is only going to work for 1,000 miles, why pay big bucks for a bow that would only work for 1,000 shots. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but a bow can only be shot so many times before it starts to fail just like an aluminum bar can only be bent so many times before it fails.

In conclusion, I see no real data being displayed about the quality of a given bow.

Now you're getting to the heart of things. Quality, to a certain extent is subject to interpretation. For the most part, materials used in the construction of any bow attributes to quality. Some companies will use higher grade aluminum in their risers, a thicker/more durable finish, more layers or different technology in their limbs. Their engineers may use tighter tolerances in their manufacturing, it all adds up to better "quality". Of course all of this also adds to cost, and the old axiom "you get what you pay for" is always relevant.

However, what you pay for doesn't always equal quality. One company's manufacturing process may not be as efficient as another's, this means they have to charge more to make a profit. This is one of the reasons Martin started using 3 piece risers; to keep waste down and pass that savings onto us. Another thing that raises the cost of a bow is the general cost of business; a company that advertises more has more business costs than one that doesn't. Who pays for that? In the end its the consumer.


This manufacturer gives you a kinetic energy rating like I was talking about YAY! I wish I had more to compare if not just for the fun of it.

http://www.bowtecharchery.com/#/productBreakdown?r=products_products&i=38

98ft-lbs!! Yeesh that seems like a LOT!


Kenetic energy is a relatively simple formula: Take total arrow weight (ie. 540grains) multiply it by arrow velocity (Feet per second) (ie. 245fps) then multiply it by velocity again. Then divide it by 450,240 (In this example, your Kinetic Energy would be 71.99 foot pounds.

Of course kinetic energy, like velocity, drops the further an arrow gets away from point of release. From what I've been told, Bowtech and Diamond (Same company if you didn't know) posts the kinetic energy of an IBO setup. Would it be nice if all manufacturers did this? Yes. But you can figure it out on your own. ;) Just remember that each archer's setup is different; different draw lengths, different arrow weights; so everyone's speeds and kinetic energy is going to be different even with the same bow. For instance, shooting an Onza 3 with an IBO setup gives an 89 foot/lbs of kinetic energy. With my specific setup with my Onza? 66.

Where as I can appreciate all of your concern (after all, we all want to make sure we don't waste our hard earned cash), you may be over thinking some of this. Archery is a fun sport, and the best thing you can do is explore your options. Try some different bows, try some different rests, sights, ect. I know that you don't have any dealers close by, but I think it would behoove you to make a drive and try some different bows out. If anything else, it will help you decide what you don't like.

Arrow Splitter
02-16-2012, 09:58 AM
Let me try and take a crack at some of this lol :pRight on!!!!:cool:

A.S

Gabriel454
02-16-2012, 11:12 AM
Why did that just make me want to buy more equipment so I could see how different set-ups do different things to the power stroke? What if syndrome again...

Okay, I'm assuming from the information that you just gave me that someone with a DL of 28 inches will acquire less KE from the same bow than someone with a 30 inch DL. Makes sense because of the shortened power stroke. (2 inches is a LOT here.) So, in order for the person with the shorter DL to see the same performance as the person with the 30 inch DL then a change of arrow would accomplish a lot. :) Good thing you don't have to buy a different barrel and receiver to change ammo. LOL!

Humm, If the arrow were cut 2 inches shorter to actually fit the shooter with shorter DL wouldn't that make the change between shooters less obvious simply by slightly lowering the Reynolds number and weight too? Then use a lighter tip or broadhead and now the speed can be even closer to the same...

Yeah, I over think things, but that is what makes it fun for me. LOL!

wscywabbit
02-16-2012, 12:16 PM
Now you're gonna get into trouble.... if my wife knew how much I've spent on archery stuff since I started a few years ago, I'm pretty sure she'd disown me lol.

Skbengal
02-16-2012, 04:06 PM
Gabriel. You should do yourself a favor and buy some magazines that include bow reviews. They will teach you much of what your asking. Check out Petersons Bowhunting and Bowhunting World. They often do reviews that show the draw force curves and efficiencies of the bows they review. They don't review all the models but it'll give you an idea of how to do it yourself.

Gabriel454
02-16-2012, 07:32 PM
Gabriel. You should do yourself a favor and buy some magazines that include bow reviews. They will teach you much of what your asking. Check out Petersons Bowhunting and Bowhunting World. They often do reviews that show the draw force curves and efficiencies of the bows they review. They don't review all the models but it'll give you an idea of how to do it yourself.

Cool. I didn't know these existed. The stuff we have on shelves here isn't really interesting to me. (Primitive Archer is the only one in the stores here that I know of.)

bfisher
02-17-2012, 05:40 AM
Wabbit, ya did good. Very well written. Ya forgot one thing. The Threshold also has a cast riser. Aluminum or magnesium I'm not sure about.

As mentioned. Don't try to over think things. We in archery use the KISS system. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Everybody has had to start somewhere. As you progress you'll learn more about what you'd like to have in a bow and adjust your next purchase accordingly. And you will by another bow someday. As for durability (1000 shots or so?). You will probably never wear a bow out. I've had target bows for 20 years that saw as much as 8000 shots or more per year and didn't wear out. That does not mean that something won't fail periodically, but that can happen with anything mechanical. How the company handles failures is what sets Martin apart from some of the others.

wscywabbit
02-17-2012, 06:35 AM
I thought it was cast, but wasn't sure, so I felt it was best not to venture there. My dad always told me "if you don't know, don't say". Thanks for the kudos though Fisher!