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Phantonza
03-05-2012, 04:24 AM
For Onza 3 specs 2012 a draw length adjustment between 26"-30.5" is claimed for the Nitro cam (now referred to as Nitro Pro). Is this correct? Is there really an update in the cam compared to 2011? For the 2011 model, adjustment between 27.5"-30.5" was claimed - 1.5" less adjustability.

When I look at page 11 of the compound bow manual for 2012, it still says "The Standard Module has positions that number #1 through #7, with each number providing additional draw length." This is exactly the statement given in the 2011 manual, so something does not match here. Only seven positions would not give the range of 26-30.5" in half inch increments.

If there really is an update in the cam, does this have any effect to the draw cycle compared to 2011 model? Or are only the rotating draw length modules different?

Spiker
03-05-2012, 05:08 AM
I think that is because the cam is offered in 2 versions: the 1.5 and the 2.0.
The 1.5 would go from 26"-29". The 2.0 would go from 27.5"-30.5".
Therefore the bow has a range of 26"-30.5" depending on which cam is ordered on it.

wscywabbit
03-05-2012, 05:28 AM
That makes sense, I didn't know they offered the 1.5 on the Onza this year....

Phantonza
03-05-2012, 06:03 AM
I think that is because the cam is offered in 2 versions: the 1.5 and the 2.0.
The 1.5 would go from 26"-29". The 2.0 would go from 27.5"-30.5".
Therefore the bow has a range of 26"-30.5" depending on which cam is ordered on it.

Well, that would make perfect sense. However, if you look at the Martin Archery Web store, there is no option of selecting the cam size for Onza 3:

http://www.shopatron.com/products/productdetail/Onza+III+Pro+Nitro+Hybrid+Cam/part_number=M-20CZ/189.0.1.1.4769.0.0.0.0?pp=12&

Phantonza
03-06-2012, 04:32 AM
So a further clarification of the cam issue would still be appreciated - are there really two cam versions (1.5 and 2.0) offered for 2012 Onza 3? I checked a couple other web stores and they did not have the option of selecting the cam, even though they were referring to the 26"-30.5" adjustment range.

Another question about the Nitro cams: I have a brand new Onza 3 (2011 model but without the TRG/SOS). I use 29" draw length setting of the rotating modules. I noticed that after some test shooting (tens of arrows), I can already see some wear on the serving of the cables - they are two tiny white spots where the cables go over the seams between the cams and the rotating draw length modules when drawing/shooting the bow. There does not seem to be anything wrong with the finish of the cams or modules, but as you know, there is a dip between the two.

For those that have been using bows with Nitro cams: have you observed this wear? Has it caused any problems such as cable failure or does it hold well in practise? At least I haven't heard of a cable failure.

Phantonza
03-06-2012, 09:46 AM
So a further clarification of the cam issue would still be appreciated - are there really two cam versions (1.5 and 2.0) offered for 2012 Onza 3? I checked a couple other web stores and they did not have the option of selecting the cam, even though they were referring to the 26"-30.5" adjustment range.


Spiker, Martin customer service confirmed that you are right: Nitro 1.5 and 2.0 are both offered for the Onza 3. I just wonder how it is not shown in the web store as an option. But all right, that is now solved :)



Another question about the Nitro cams: I have a brand new Onza 3 (2011 model but without the TRG/SOS). I use 29" draw length setting of the rotating modules. I noticed that after some test shooting (tens of arrows), I can already see some wear on the serving of the cables - they are two tiny white spots where the cables go over the seams between the cams and the rotating draw length modules when drawing/shooting the bow. There does not seem to be anything wrong with the finish of the cams or modules, but as you know, there is a dip between the two.

For those that have been using bows with Nitro cams: have you observed this wear? Has it caused any problems such as cable failure or does it hold well in practise? At least I haven't heard of a cable failure.

I studied this issue closer. I found out that the draw length module has a slightly thicker inner side wall compared to the corresponding track in the cam. The cable track in the cam also has a very slight inner "ridge" but its thickness does not quite match to that on the module. This causes the alignment of the cable change slightly at the transit from the cam to the module when drawing the bow - at this point the side wall of the module touches the serving a bit on one side and this is what causes the wear.

Good news is that it goes this way when drawing the bow, so it is not combined to the speed that occurs at the shot. I could imagine a similar wear on the other side of the cable caused by the transition to the opposite direction, but luckily there is none visible. So I am not very worried about that. On the other hand, I bet this could be easily improved in production.

Sorry, no pictures, but I hope the (possible) readers could understand from my non-native English explanation.

Spiker
03-06-2012, 09:57 AM
It probably is not listed on the online store because, if purchased that way, the bows are standard production models.
The nice thing about Martin is that you can get a bow built in just about any configuration if you go thru one of their dealers.
That may not be as easy in Finland as it is here but - still is available.

Sounds like you have a good grasp of archery engineering and mass production.

madman350
03-06-2012, 10:48 AM
phantoza, do you bowhunt over there in finland? if so fill us in a little about it. not everyday we hear input and direct info relating to archery from folks in your neck of the woods.

Phantonza
03-06-2012, 09:49 PM
It probably is not listed on the online store because, if purchased that way, the bows are standard production models.
The nice thing about Martin is that you can get a bow built in just about any configuration if you go thru one of their dealers.
That may not be as easy in Finland as it is here but - still is available.


OK - but in that case I assume the draw length should be listed as 27.5" - 30.5" (as for Nitro 2.0 cam) in the online store. The whole range of 26” to 30.5” is written there instead.



Sounds like you have a good grasp of archery engineering and mass production.

No, not really. I was just trying to apply common sense, that's all. But perhaps I am having a bit more analytical perspective at the moment as I am doing a comparison test (including Onza 3) to the magazine of the Finnish Bowhunting Association. I could post some pictures to illustrate my explanation later.

Phantonza
03-06-2012, 10:05 PM
phantoza, do you bowhunt over there in finland? if so fill us in a little about it. not everyday we hear input and direct info relating to archery from folks in your neck of the woods.

Yes, since 2003. I don't feel like a very experienced bowhunter yet, though. In Finland, the largest animals that are allowed for bowhunting are beaver and roe deer. Roe deer is much smaller species of deer than whitetail, as you might know.

However, we actually have a good whitetail deer population too, mainly in the southern parts of the country (I live in the north). The species was imported from USA back in the 1930's by Finnish immigrants. Basically the species is non-existent elsewhere in Europe. We are hoping to get all the deers permitted for bowhunting in the near future. Other deer include Finnish forest deer (Rangifer tarandus fennicus), very similar to caribou. We also have lots of moose around, they are smaller in average size compared to North America, but you are not allowed to use bow and arrow to hunt them. Other big game such as brown bear, lynx and wild boar are also only for rifle hunters. On the other hand, half of the European countries have banned bowhunting completely!

So far, most of my hunting effort has been about birds (different species than in the USA, black grouse being my favorite), hares and roe deer.

bowgramp59
03-07-2012, 02:29 AM
what were the reasons given for banning bow hunting in those countries ? just courious !

Phantonza
03-07-2012, 02:59 AM
what were the reasons given for banning bow hunting in those countries ? just courious !

Basically it has never been allowed in modern times in those contries, I believe. The renaissance of bowhunting has just never quite reached those countries and the laws do not take bows into account as hunting weapons. However, there is European Bowhunting Federation (http://www.europeanbowhunting.org/) that is promoting bowhunting in various European countries.

For example our neighbours Sweden and Norway do not permit bowhunting.

madman350
03-07-2012, 04:36 PM
thanks, very interesting. i presume the black grouse eat good, American pheasant although not native to florida, is our top game bird for table fare i presume. bobwhite quail are also good, very common in southeastern USA and good sport. how do the roe deer serve for table fare? whitetail is very good varying in size quite a bit from region to region , mule deer i hear aren't as tasty, and elk eat great and are huge. as far as eating wild boar, no thanks , the preferred method in the south is = fatten for slaughter, then BBQ on live oak. mmm may have to run by a roadside BBQ shack tomorrow for lunch.
how far is it to the southern whitetail habitat from where you are located? it is often hard to find hunting access close (under 75 miles) to home in many states. hope you get to archery hunt for them whitetails some day, it is great sport. dont be to patient tho if you have to go get one with a rifle, that works too.

nuker
03-08-2012, 07:55 AM
Concerning the difference in wall thickness - contact Martin. I had a similar issue, but more pronounced. Their QC sometimes has some to be desired, but they don't bat an eye to make it right. They sent my local shop a full set of cams and a new string without ANY hesitation. Problem was resolved.

Phantonza
03-08-2012, 12:45 PM
Concerning the difference in wall thickness - contact Martin. I had a similar issue, but more pronounced. Their QC sometimes has some to be desired, but they don't bat an eye to make it right. They sent my local shop a full set of cams and a new string without ANY hesitation. Problem was resolved.

Thank you Nuker for sharing this information! I will certainly contact Martin to make it right.

I am very excited about the bow despite this issue.

Phantonza
03-20-2012, 01:35 AM
Quote from myself:


Another question about the Nitro cams: I have a brand new Onza 3 (2011 model but without the TRG/SOS). I use 29" draw length setting of the rotating modules. I noticed that after some test shooting (tens of arrows), I can already see some wear on the serving of the cables - they are two tiny white spots where the cables go over the seams between the cams and the rotating draw length modules when drawing/shooting the bow. There does not seem to be anything wrong with the finish of the cams or modules, but as you know, there is a dip between the two.

For those that have been using bows with Nitro cams: have you observed this wear? Has it caused any problems such as cable failure or does it hold well in practise? At least I haven't heard of a cable failure.
. . .
I studied this issue closer. I found out that the draw length module has a slightly thicker inner side wall compared to the corresponding track in the cam. The cable track in the cam also has a very slight inner "ridge" but its thickness does not quite match to that on the module. This causes the alignment of the cable change slightly at the transit from the cam to the module when drawing the bow - at this point the side wall of the module touches the serving a bit on one side and this is what causes the wear.


I contacted Martin via my dealer, with full explanation and illustration. The answer was that this is normal wear.

I find this response somewhat dissappointing. I know I can pretty much fix the issue by filing the sharp inner wall edge of the draw length modules to make them round. Pretty simple task. However, I don't feel this is something that a buyer of a brand new bow should do before starting to use the bow. At least it will cause some expenses, unless you happen to have the equipment/materials (file, screw vice, black spray paint to finish the edges) readily at hand. And some work, of course.

I think this detail is a pity in the otherwise well-made bow. I have been doing a comparison test Onza 3 vs. Hoyt CRX 32 for a Finnish bowhunting magazine (to be published later this spring) and otherwise Onza 3 was performing well in comparison. This is clearly the biggest con for the bow (the other is that the bow is heavier than specified).

I am sure the bow has not been designed this way (that is, alignment of tracks in the cams don't quite match to those in the modules). It must be about manufacturing tolerances - also the fact that the wear is more severe in bottom compared to top proves this. In my opinion, those tolerances are not in acceptable level if you can clearly observe wear only after tens of arrows and still classify this as normal.

Below are a couple of pictures of the wear close to the bottom cam. I would be curious the hear experiences from other people with Nitro cams; do you observe similar wear or not.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2638/onzawearlocation.jpg

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5778/onzawearcloseup.jpg

gravedigger
03-20-2012, 06:28 AM
i am no pro by any means but that does not look normal to me.call martin and email the photos,i bet they wont say it is normal either.this is a case of a dealer needs to be bi-passed.

wscywabbit
03-20-2012, 06:44 AM
I also have similar wear, but not nearly as pronounced. One thing to watch that these cams have a natural draw stop when they rotate all the way around and the cam lip comes to rest against the cables... If your draw is set too long you can "over rotate" past that point and cause stress on the cables. You may want to see if your draw setup is at or past that point. If it is, going to the next longer draw setting on the mod and then moving the draw stop post to set your draw length might be a better setup for you... for me I gained several fps and I no longer have to worry about wear at that point in my cables. :)

Phantonza
03-20-2012, 08:57 AM
i am no pro by any means but that does not look normal to me.call martin and email the photos,i bet they wont say it is normal either.this is a case of a dealer needs to be bi-passed.

Yes, Martin got the photos (a larger set) and a thorough explanation given by myself. I know the dealer personally, he is not a problem here.

Martin's (Joel's) opinion still was that this is normal wear.

Phantonza
03-20-2012, 09:00 AM
I also have similar wear, but not nearly as pronounced.


OK, thanks for sharing this information.



One thing to watch that these cams have a natural draw stop when they rotate all the way around and the cam lip comes to rest against the cables... If your draw is set too long you can "over rotate" past that point and cause stress on the cables.


I understand, but that is not the case here. I have explained the reasons above and there is no doubt about that diagnosis.

Phantonza
03-30-2012, 12:44 AM
Martin is now more than 60 years old company that has been making also compound bows for tens of years. I find it somehow disturbing that the production models now include this kind of simple and downright stupid flaw that is eating the cables if not fixed (depending on tolerances in manufacturing, but clearly the whole issue could be avoided altogether). In comparison, I had a closer look at the draw length modules of my 2003 Martin Phantom II bow: both inner edges of the module groove are round, not square and sharp as is the case in Nitro cam module's inner wall. It just does not make any sense to me. They clearly know how to make such a simple thing right, so why on earth they don't do it right in their 60th anniversary models such as the Onza 3 bow? :confused::confused:

If this is a cost issue, it certainly is saving in a wrong place. Great bows otherwise, why ruin it with such a minor detail done wrong? And because the same cams are used in several models, also the issue must be spread over a great portion of the entire lineup. I would expect to see the same thing with Rytera Hybrix cams as they are basically the same cam, aren't they? This kind of helps me with my irrational desire of purchasing a Rytera Nemesis to my "collection" :)

Don't get me wrong. I like my Onza 3 enough to replace my Hoyt with it. I fixed the issue by making the edges round with a file as explained above in a previous post. But somehow, for some reason, I feel sympathy for this company and I would hope it to succeed even better in the future. Therefore it makes me sad that with all the potential and value for money with these bows there seems to be insufficient attention to detail. Things being like this, I cannot really full-heartedly recommend Martin bows to others, as much as I like mine.

That being said, there are issues to be improved with other manufacturers, too. For example, it is a common issue with Hoyt bows to make some noise from the limb pockets when drawn. I have experienced that too with my CRX 32 (although you can usually get rid of that by just ajusting the draw length bolts back and forth a few times. For a permanent fix, you may need to disassemble the bow and add lithium grease to limb pockets). Does not really give an impression of quality in a hunting bow that should be as quiet as possible. I also feel that the draw cycle of the CRX is poorly designed: transition to let-off is abrupt and the valley too short. I believe the new RKT cams have not made any significant improvement (by comparing the draw cycle curves, they are very identical). Martin's Nitro cams are much better but the modules need a simple fix. This should be done by the factory, not by bow owners. This is the way to improve trust of the customers and helps in building a good quality reputation.

bfisher
03-30-2012, 04:20 PM
Phantonza, I do have to agree with your last post. A company that has been around this long has certainly
been around the block" and should be aware of this design.machining flaw. It just can't be that much more expensive to machine a radius to those inner cam edges. Hopefully by posting such things here and notifying the warranty dept this will get passed along to "the powers that be" and corrected at some time. Sure, some of us know how and can correct it with a file or fine grit sandpaper, but most people don't and these are the ones who will pass along the problem to others. And I agree that customers should not have to finish the machining process in their homes. It can't do anything but hurt sales and reputation.

Lung Buster
03-30-2012, 04:30 PM
Phantonza, I do have to agree with your last post. A company that has been around this long has certainly
been around the block" and should be aware of this design.machining flaw. It just can't be that much more expensive to machine a radius to those inner cam edges. Hopefully by posting such things here and notifying the warranty dept this will get passed along to "the powers that be" and corrected at some time. Sure, some of us know how and can correct it with a file or fine grit sandpaper, but most people don't and these are the ones who will pass along the problem to others. And I agree that customers should not have to finish the machining process in their homes. It can't do anything but hurt sales and reputation.

You are 100% right BFisher there are alot of people who only know the basics when it comes down to working on there bows so if it is not simple those people cant fix issues like this one and that leads to people bad mouthing a product! I hope Martin can fix this problem because they do make great bows.

Thermodude
03-30-2012, 05:07 PM
Phantonza, I do have to agree with your last post. A company that has been around this long has certainly
been around the block" and should be aware of this design.machining flaw. It just can't be that much more expensive to machine a radius to those inner cam edges. Hopefully by posting such things here and notifying the warranty dept this will get passed along to "the powers that be" and corrected at some time. Sure, some of us know how and can correct it with a file or fine grit sandpaper, but most people don't and these are the ones who will pass along the problem to others. And I agree that customers should not have to finish the machining process in their homes. It can't do anything but hurt sales and reputation.

This is so true, my dealer is a very good friend of mine and over the years Martins bows have dewindled from his racks. This year I spoke with him about why........he told me that he just got tired of trying to keep srtings and cables on their bows. Needless to say it was very hard when I called him about my new Pantera eating the serving off my shooting string. None the less I think I have breathed new life into his shop and the area I live in by taking my bows to shoots, doing well and showing them to people..........most people think that there are only 3 companies that make bows! I too hope that what gets posted here gets looked at .........people want these bows , and when they pick them up to shoot them they expect them to work,no little problems that they have to take care of at home!