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droppixel
03-18-2012, 06:55 AM
Posted this in the mafia haven't seen any replies yet. Been messing with the X more and this is what I was finding yesterday. Things didn't feel as "off" as this when I first started shooting, but I added some string silencers and then this is where I got. I pulled them off in hopes of having things get back to closer to where I was prior to putting them on.

I started with the rest/arrow being about 7/8" from the riser and through the center of the rest holes. If I line up my string down the center of the riser with the arrow, my pins are WAY out to the left. When I shoot from 20 yards I'm centered and then step back to 40 yard, still center impact. Doesn't seem right to me and wondering if this is somewhat normal with the X because of the CCS? So I don't know if I was to move the rest out from the riser say to 1" center of the shaft, if I would need to bring the pins back to the right to compensate or if this would throw it off even further.

Also wondering if I'm considerably underspined and if that could have something to do with it. I have yet to get this in front of paper, don't have a set up for that yet - need to build a box to shoot through. Set up/specs are below.

2010 X - 70# / 29.5 DL
GT XT Hunter 5575 - 27.25 carbon 2 carbon - 100g tip
Trufire 3D Hunter release w/ D-Loop
Limbdriver rest

Simple Life
03-18-2012, 07:41 AM
By GT arrow chart you should be shooting the 7595,not the 5575's.

droppixel
03-18-2012, 08:09 AM
Yeah I read the charts as being right in between the 2. I've read guy go both ways with this and read somewhere in the mafia that the Aliens tend to like the slightly less stiff arrows. I don't have a program that would crunch the numbers on them. I just did some shooting after pulling the string silencers off and it feels a touch more consistent, it just seems strange that the center of the arrow is that close to the riser and the pins are that far out. But if that is how these tune, no problem. Just want to know if that is normal.

I could look into getting a .340 but would need to make a trade or sell the 11 XTs I have before doing so. If I don't need the .340s I would rather not go through the hassle right now. If I put any more money into archery stuff, sometime soon I might find my stuff out in the yard!

wscywabbit
03-18-2012, 08:22 AM
I think it would be normal under the circumstances for your setup. If you haven't already, read up on archer's paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_paradox). It helps to explain why your sight pins would be off center depending on the proper spine of your arrows.

droppixel
03-18-2012, 09:10 AM
Cool, I don't necessarily expect them to be inline - just feels like they might be further out to the left than I would think. Looking at the image there, I never had any shots that went far right, so I would think the spine range is correct. This bow just might tune like that and that's how it is.

Speedykills
03-18-2012, 11:48 AM
Yes it's normal with center shot 7/8" your sight pins will be to the left of string,mine is the same way.Crackers did some extensive testing and calaberated with martin about this.
Plenty of post about this in Alien mafia files..........

droppixel
03-18-2012, 12:14 PM
Yes it's normal with center shot 7/8" your sight pins will be to the left of string,mine is the same way.Crackers did some extensive testing and calaberated with martin about this.
Plenty of post about this in Alien mafia files..........

Ok good. I was hoping I wasn't crazy, I remember seeing it in there somewhere. I know Jim has said 7/8-1" is the best starting point for the X and Nemesis.

bowgramp59
03-18-2012, 12:19 PM
its normal for your pins to be left of the center of your arrow, i think it's an eye thing! all my bows are that way.if it is hitting what you are aiming at you are set to go!

Spiker
03-18-2012, 12:48 PM
.400 spine at 70# / 29.5 DL with an AX is too weak.

droppixel
03-18-2012, 01:34 PM
.400 spine at 70# / 29.5 DL with an AX is too weak.

Better if I back it out a turn to turn/half? If everything is shooting proper I'd like to stick with what I got, lot of money invested so far into the arrows and gonna be a royal beyotch getting something different. I did think about going with a .340 or .350 before, but was told I should be good with the 5575s :confused:

At the same time if I'll ultimately be better off with a stiffer spine and someone is will to do a swap/buy give me a holler. I got 11 XT Hunter (smacked one yesterday at 30 and broke it) 27.25 carbon to carbon with very few shots on each shaft, some have been shot less than 10 times - standard GT nocks. Fletched with Predator vanes - some need to be refletched, had some vanes tear off shooting :( - I can prep and do that if need.

Spiker
03-18-2012, 07:13 PM
Better if I back it out a turn to turn/half? If everything is shooting proper I'd like to stick with what I got, lot of money invested so far into the arrows and gonna be a royal beyotch getting something different. I did think about going with a .340 or .350 before, but was told I should be good with the 5575s :confused:

At the same time if I'll ultimately be better off with a stiffer spine and someone is will to do a swap/buy give me a holler. I got 11 XT Hunter (smacked one yesterday at 30 and broke it) 27.25 carbon to carbon with very few shots on each shaft, some have been shot less than 10 times - standard GT nocks. Fletched with Predator vanes - some need to be refletched, had some vanes tear off shooting :( - I can prep and do that if need.

I ran your numbers on OT2: 70# 29.5" with a 27 1/4" GT 7595 / 100gn tip and it puts you into the green (on the weak side).
The same setup with a GT 5575 is almost off the scale underspined...

Actually you need to measure the arrow from the throat of the nock to the end of the carbon but...

I shoot 7595's out of my AX at 61.5# 29". At that draw weight they are a bit stiff but out past 40yds I can group better with them and they penetrate way better.
And my 60# AX is my main hunting bow so I dont mind giving up a little speed for the other benifits.

I'd swap you a few arrows cuz I shoot both sizes (5575's out of my 50# bows) but 27.25" is too short for me.

droppixel
03-18-2012, 07:49 PM
Interesting. I had considered looking at the Velocity 300s as well. I might be able to swing a deal on AT and get at pretty close to what I would need/want for another dozen. I'll see how things continue to go as I keep shooting. Haven't done a lot of shooting past 30-40 yet, hope to get back out to the range next weekend weather permitting and get some 30-50+ in. I can get 20-30 very comfortably in my driveway/yard and can stretch it to 40 if I put my target a yards into my garage.

It all is what it is if everything is in order and shooting properly, I'm not going to mess with it much. I already get really bad cases of "tinkeritis".

gravedigger
03-18-2012, 07:53 PM
Posted this in the mafia haven't seen any replies yet. Been messing with the X more and this is what I was finding yesterday. Things didn't feel as "off" as this when I first started shooting, but I added some string silencers and then this is where I got. I pulled them off in hopes of having things get back to closer to where I was prior to putting them on.

I started with the rest/arrow being about 7/8" from the riser and through the center of the rest holes. If I line up my string down the center of the riser with the arrow, my pins are WAY out to the left. When I shoot from 20 yards I'm centered and then step back to 40 yard, still center impact. Doesn't seem right to me and wondering if this is somewhat normal with the X because of the CCS? So I don't know if I was to move the rest out from the riser say to 1" center of the shaft, if I would need to bring the pins back to the right to compensate or if this would throw it off even further.

Also wondering if I'm considerably underspined and if that could have something to do with it. I have yet to get this in front of paper, don't have a set up for that yet - need to build a box to shoot through. Set up/specs are below.

2010 X - 70# / 29.5 DL
GT XT Hunter 5575 - 27.25 carbon 2 carbon - 100g tip
Trufire 3D Hunter release w/ D-Loop
Limbdriver rest
my bow is set up the same.i just left it alone.it shoots straight and hits paper fine.i thought about messing with things but decided not to.

droppixel
03-18-2012, 07:56 PM
my bow is set up the same.i just left it alone.it shoots straight and hits paper fine.i thought about messing with things but decided not to.

That is my problem, I will always think about messing with something and I will research the living crap out of it and then either set my mind to it or find a way to talk myself out of it in the process. I'm wired differently when it comes to things like that lol.

I'll see what happens this next weekend when I can do some more shooting and evaluate from there. Should I need to sell 10-11 XT Hunters, don't think I'll have that hard of a time doing so on AT.

wscywabbit
03-18-2012, 07:56 PM
If you do have problems though dropping your poundage say 5 pounds may help bring it line, or shooting a lighter tip.

droppixel
03-25-2012, 11:58 AM
Was out shooting again, did back the bow down a turn and half. Think I'm going to pull another out of it. The speed on this has me very impressed and a bit puzzled at the same time. I was using the same pin I had set for 20 and shooting it for 30 and 40 as well. All hitting very close to each other. Feels a little weird and I don't know if it is 100% accurate, we did have a little breeze, but nothing I would expect to help carry an arrow that far. Only thing I can think is just the flat trajectory this thing is putting out there, definitely not used to it.

bfisher
03-25-2012, 04:57 PM
Good advice to back the bow down to 65# or maybe even more. You could try broadheads and see how they fly. If they're irratic then you'll know for sure. My experience tells me the 5575 is way underspined and even 7595 (340 spine) might be marginal. I would advise you to lean more toward a 300 spine. I decent budget arrow for this would be a Gold Tip Expedition if funds are tight. Try a half dozen. If they work you can always get another half dozen later.

As for the sight setting being to the left? Almost any bow with a cable guard will require the sight pin to be to the left of the string. This is due to several things, but mostly because the cables are pulled to the side causing limb/riser torque. This torque becomes even greater as the bow is drawn and more force is shifted from the string to the cables. Then there's always the possibility that you have some astigmatism in your aiming eye (I have bad astigmatism). Arrow spine could be another contributing factor. In other words, tune the bow where it needs to be and then shoot it.

To give an example about the astigmatism, I have two friends that shoot my bows once in a while and with my bow sighted for me they both shoot approximately 8" to the right at 20 yards. I'd hate to think what the results would be at something like 50 yards. The point being---different eyes see different things. I just accept it and shoot the bow.

droppixel
03-25-2012, 05:34 PM
Good call Barry. I after shooting today, I know I need to turn it down some more if I plan to keep shooting these arrows. The Alien is just too agressive for these, they would be perfect for my Cheetah. So I'm going to put some real thought into selling/trading these XT Hunters for either some 7595s or Velocity 300s. After today, I'm almost 99% sure most of my issues with getting these thing tuned properly is the arrow. Was really back and forth trying to get center shot lined up perfectly from 20-40. Next time I get to shoot, I'll have turned it down some more and we'll see if that helps it.

Also, going off my other thread in fletching ... gonna have to do some more, had another come off today and slapped an arrow skinning one off last night. Plan to buy some Blazers pronto and getting them done up. Only thing that is going to hold me back is the arrow change :confused:

bfisher
03-25-2012, 07:13 PM
Something else you might try are the GT 22 series if you are interested in staying on the light side. These only come in one spine and it's 300. They weigh a mere 7.3 gpi. This would give you a faster arrow and give you more latitude in point/fletching options to vary the total arrow weight. I've used them off and on for 3D and target for several years now.

Something you can do is get on GT's website and use their "Build Your Own Arrow" feature to see what might work best for you. Just depending on what you want to end up with don't discount using one of the several target shaft options.

bfisher
03-25-2012, 07:26 PM
Just did the homework at GT. Ultralite 22 series is listed under target shafts. 29" shaft with 3 Blazers, standard nock and insert with 100 gr points works out to 359 grains with an FOC of 10%. Sounds like a match made in Heaven.

droppixel
03-26-2012, 04:35 AM
Something else you might try are the GT 22 series if you are interested in staying on the light side. These only come in one spine and it's 300. They weigh a mere 7.3 gpi. This would give you a faster arrow and give you more latitude in point/fletching options to vary the total arrow weight. I've used them off and on for 3D and target for several years now.

Something you can do is get on GT's website and use their "Build Your Own Arrow" feature to see what might work best for you. Just depending on what you want to end up with don't discount using one of the several target shaft options.

I play with the arrow builder all the time :p I'm not overly concerned with the weight in staying really light, I think after shooting my Velocity 400s with my Cheetah at around 340ish I wouldn't mind kicking the weight up a little for a touch more penetration possibility as well as silencing the bow a touch more with the heavier arrow.


Just did the homework at GT. Ultralite 22 series is listed under target shafts. 29" shaft with 3 Blazers, standard nock and insert with 100 gr points works out to 359 grains with an FOC of 10%. Sounds like a match made in Heaven.

I have looked at the Velocity (300) arrows at my length and they would be around 368-370ish, I might put the shaft a touch longer with those since they are 300s. Going to play with the builder some more today and see what I get. Probably going to put up a post in AT and here for the shafts I have now to see if there is any interest in them, otherwise I'll just be trying to get the X tuned with them.

Builder Update:
Velocity 300s 27.25 C2C - Acculite nocks - 100g tip approx 367gr 8.83% FOC

Dont want to have to fart around with the weights to increase FOC up to close to 10% with a 10g weight a 20g would take it to 10.87% - reason for the weights is I don't want to switch broadheads to a 125 because the T3 only comes 100g :(

droppixel
03-27-2012, 05:12 PM
Ok so now I'm at a decision point. Put a post up and sure enough got a nibble on the arrows. I turned the bow down the other night but haven't had a chance to really play with it and the current arrows at that poundage. I could take the offer and sell the arrows and then pick up another dozen. Right now I am looking at Velocity 300s - good price on one of the fleabay stores. Can't find any 7595 that aren't bank breakers (have to stick within a budget or risk divorce) and want to stick with Gold Tips.

Now I don't want to run the risk of being overspined and getting right back into the same situation where I won't be able to get them to tune properly with the bow. Thoughts guys?

bfisher
03-27-2012, 05:34 PM
Try looking for Expeditions in a 300 spine. They're about as cheap as you're going to get.

droppixel
03-27-2012, 06:25 PM
Try looking for Expeditions in a 300 spine. They're about as cheap as you're going to get.

Think the expeditions only make it to .340 with the 7595s

Looking at $73 fletched Velocity Hunter 300 / $81 Velocity XT fletched
$57 shafts Velocity Hunter 300 (not listed, auction ended, should be reposted soon)
looks like a dozen of 7595 shafts popped up recently for $70.75 (figure + $13-14 for vanes)

I know this is one area you don't want to take the cheap way out, but I'm not about to drop $100+ on a dozen arrows.

bfisher
03-28-2012, 02:54 AM
You're right, my bad. Forgive me as I'm an old senior and as such have senior moments; too often these days. I meant Ultralite Entrada 300.

droppixel
03-28-2012, 04:17 AM
You're right, my bad. Forgive me as I'm an old senior and as such have senior moments; too often these days. I meant Ultralite Entrada 300.

Hahah no worries ... so you think a .300 might not be bad? I'm not in the boat where I HAVE to shoot 70# - I'm comfortable in the mid-60 range, can shoot 70 if I feel like it. Thinking if I go up toward 70 I'll need the stiffer spine for sure after seeing what I have seen so far. If I turn it down, I still haven't been able to check the flight of the arrows at the current .400

**EDIT**

So I probably shouldn't do this, but did anyway. Installed the trial of Shaft Selector from OT2

Here is the XT Hunter Setup with the X - in order to get this in the good range ... it wasn't happening until the draw length and poundage both came way down or the point weight was crazy low.
http://i42.tinypic.com/14t7omd.jpg

Here is what I got when I put in the Velocity 300
http://i39.tinypic.com/993w46.jpg

Does this look right to you software guys?? The Bow numbers was set with the equipment database selecting the Alien X Hybrix

Spiker
03-28-2012, 08:48 AM
I think the numbers you put in OT2 are good.
I use GT XT 7595's, 100gn points at 28.5" in my AX and AZ - both bows at 62# 29" and they tune/shoot really well so I would think
that at 67-70# the Velocity .300's should work very well for you.

droppixel
03-28-2012, 08:53 AM
I think the numbers you put in OT2 are good.
I use GT XT 7595's, 100gn points at 28.5" in my AX and AZ - both bows at 62# 29" and they tune/shoot really well so I would think
that at 67-70# the Velocity .300's should work very well for you.

Perfect - all I needed to hear. I was looking at it some more and if I am doing everything right, even if I turn down to 64/65# i'm still in the "good" range while being closer to the stiff end. Gonna try to get these 5575s gone and nab some of the 300s off fleabay.

wscywabbit
03-28-2012, 11:31 AM
My experience with OT2 and the advice I've gotten on hunting setups is that it's better to be a little on the stiff side of the graph... And I haven't had any problem tuning my setups. Just a thought. ;)

droppixel
04-07-2012, 04:03 PM
So I got the Velocity 300s and got them set up last night with Blazers. Took the Alien out this morning to drown my sorrows and sure enough, shoots a heck of a lot better with the stiffer shaft. Feels a lot more consistent, Brought my sight closer to the riser instead of WAY out to the left. Wife called and cut my session short, so I'll still be working with it a little more to have it totally dialed in. But overall, very pleased with the decision to go stiffer.