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cmwr
04-16-2012, 08:52 PM
I just can't get the fishtail out. I got a micro adjustable NAP Apache rest and I have adjusted centershot in 1/32 increments back and forth a dozen times or more and I get it to where it hits where the sight is aiming but the fishtail never goes away. I don't care whether the arrow hits where I want or not when the thing is fishtailing so bad I can see the shaft broadside before it hits. A bare shaft is horrible! On a bare shaft it literally flies sideways right before it hits. It looks like a guided missle from an F16 just sidewinding all over the sky. I think my arrows are underspined but it doesn't make sense. I have tried 75 gr 100 gr and 125 gr field points to no avail and my expandable blade broadheads which are used and I know fly like my field tips in other bows fly way left and low. These same arrows are used in my 1997 Martin pulling same draw weight and draw length and they fly straight as an arrow so how can they be underspined? I tried to call and talk to Joel today but he never returned my call.

Specs and bows:
1997 Martin Speed Demon with Z cams 28" draw and 63 lbs draw weight
2012 Silencer Nitrous cams 28" draw and 60 lbs draw weight
Same arrows for both Goldtip 5575 cut to 29" using NAP Twister vanes fletched at a 2-3 degree offset
75,100, 125 gr tips

Could I be underspined due to the faster more modern bow transferring more energy? Both bows have 7" brace heights

Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-16-2012, 09:15 PM
Fishtailing
Fishtailing relates to the arrow rest adjustment and the stiffness of your
arrow. Just as before, start at about ten to fifteen yards and shoot three fletched arrows into
your target. Using the same aiming point, follow them up with a bare shaft. After you get
the shafts to impact with the fletched shafts, you may want to try shooting them at a longer
distance for a finer indication of arrow flight.

If your unfletched shafts impact to the left of your fletched shafts, your arrow is too stiff.
There are two things that you can do to correct this problem; you can select a weaker
arrow, or you can decrease the cushion plunger tension. Increasing the peak weight of
your bow or increasing your point weight will also make your arrow act a bit more limber.
If your unfletched shafts impact to the right of your fletched shafts, your arrow is too limber.
There are two methods you can try that will correct this problem; you can select a stiffer
arrow, or you can increase the cushion plunger tension. Decreasing the peak weight of your
bow or decreasing your point weight will also make your arrow act a bit more stiff.
To further fine tune your setup, step back to twenty or thirty yards and repeat
the above procedures. Small flight disturbances will show up better as you get
farther from the target. Your Martin bow is essentially tuned when your bare shafts hit
together with your fletched shafts. Keep in mind that if you continue and complete the super
fine tuning methods in this manual, it is not uncommon for your bare shaft impact to change.
Even with your bow shooting its best, it is common for a perfectly tuned bow to shoot a bare
shaft a bit low and right or low and left. Perfect arrow groups are the goal when completing
these exercises.
Stiff Arrow.
Bare shafts fly to left.
Limber Arrow
Bare shafts fly to right.


Hutch:cool:

TEN RING
04-16-2012, 09:18 PM
have you run your arrow thru paper at differant feet and yards sometimes it an optical illusion start with paper tune just to see

cmwr
04-16-2012, 09:22 PM
I was told these arrows are at the low end for this weight. I mean they are borderline too light. And my bareshafts always hit left of my fletched shafts. So how can an arrow that is almost underspined be too stiff? I would think too stiff would be too heavy a spine.

cmwr
04-16-2012, 09:32 PM
I got this from goldtips page:

1. For compound bows with IBO speed rating between 290-315 FPS shot with a release aid, use the selection chart as specified.

2. For compound bows with IBO speed rating between 315-350 FPS shot with a release aid, choose at least one box to the stiffer side (to the right) for your recommended arrow. Example : If your draw weight is 72 Ibs and your arrow length is 29", select a shaft from group number five.

3. For compound bows with IBO speed rating under 290FPS shot with a release aid, choose at least one box to the weaker side (to the left) for your recommended arrow. Example : If your draw weight is 63 Ibs and your arrow length is 27", select a shaft from group number 2 or 3.

5575 is right on the line and 7595 is the next step up. I have a feeling due to the severe speed of this bow compared to my old one that I need a stiffer arrow. I bet the 5575 I shoot currently is not spined stiff enough for a 60 lb speed bow. Any body think I am right?

Spiker
04-17-2012, 12:27 AM
Weight of the arrow and spine of the arrow are two different things.
Either turn your bow down to 50# or get some 7595's and your problem should go away.

And yes - the old bow with the Z cams is not the same as the new bow with the Nitro cams.

NuttyNative
04-17-2012, 01:25 AM
I may be way off base here, not nearly as knowledgeable as most on here. I was having similar issues with fishtailing with my Firecat 360 but it was not constant and only with some arrows. Some arrows fishtailed right before impacting the target. After about 30 minutes of total frustration and a few "time outs" I seen the problem. Some of the fletchings were making contact with the cables and some wern't. I was shooting everything with cock vane up. A simple twist of the nock cured my issues and all of them fly the same now.
I noticed it while testing 4 different arrows.

Gold Tip 5575 feather fletched, 415 gr
PSE Bow Madness 300 with 3" fusion vanes, 421 gr
Carbon Express Mutiny 350 blazer vane. 418 gr
Easton Axix nano 340 blazer vane, 425 gr

The Gold tips were the worst and only 3 of the 6 fishtailed. The PSE & Eastons all flew straight & true. The carbon Express were hit and miss.
My set up is: Firecat 360 @ 66 lbs, 30" draw- 29.5" arrow, Ripcord rest, Tru Ball Pro Diamond Release.

cmwr
04-17-2012, 06:59 AM
I may be way off base here, not nearly as knowledgeable as most on here. I was having similar issues with fishtailing with my Firecat 360 but it was not constant and only with some arrows. Some arrows fishtailed right before impacting the target. After about 30 minutes of total frustration and a few "time outs" I seen the problem. Some of the fletchings were making contact with the cables and some wern't. I was shooting everything with cock vane up. A simple twist of the nock cured my issues and all of them fly the same now.
I noticed it while testing 4 different arrows.

Gold Tip 5575 feather fletched, 415 gr
PSE Bow Madness 300 with 3" fusion vanes, 421 gr
Carbon Express Mutiny 350 blazer vane. 418 gr
Easton Axix nano 340 blazer vane, 425 gr

The Gold tips were the worst and only 3 of the 6 fishtailed. The PSE & Eastons all flew straight & true. The carbon Express were hit and miss.
My set up is: Firecat 360 @ 66 lbs, 30" draw- 29.5" arrow, Ripcord rest, Tru Ball Pro Diamond Release.

I thought the same but bare shafts do it too. I am gonna turn my bow down to 50 and see what happens. I never thought of that. That should tell me for sure if I got an issue.

cmwr
04-17-2012, 07:14 AM
I just turned my bow down to 50 lbs and the problem is gone. Broadheads, field tips, and bare shafts don't porpoise now.

droppixel
04-17-2012, 11:26 AM
I had been shooting 5575s out of my Alien, I turned it down toward mid/low 60s down from 70 and still wasn't getting good flight with them. I opted to go with some Velocity 300s and since I started shooting those, much better out of that bow. My Cheetah loves Velocity 400s but the speed of that bow is significantly less than the Alien, the .400 spine just weren't gonna hack it out of that bow. Still shooting around 65# with the Alien and it is much nicer with the stiffer shaft. It's a strange thing when you look at how things really are compared to what an arrow chart suggests they "should" be.

NuttyNative
04-17-2012, 12:52 PM
I just turned my bow down to 50 lbs and the problem is gone. Broadheads, field tips, and bare shafts don't porpoise now.

Does this mean you need a stiffer spine or heavier arrow to go back to 60 pounds?

cmwr
04-17-2012, 04:46 PM
Does this mean you need a stiffer spine or heavier arrow to go back to 60 pounds?

Stiffer spine. I am gonna buy stiffer arows and move up a notch on spine. Until then I am gonna tune my bow at 50 lbs with these arrows to get my centershot ect set up. Then I will crank it back up and use heavier arrows and fine tune from there.

cmwr
04-17-2012, 09:10 PM
Guys I will admit I was wrong. I played with it some more today and got it. Arrows are flying straight and true and i am hitting where I aim. This was a tuning issue and I kinda feel embarrassed for not messing with it more before I asked a question. I cranked it back up to 60 lbs and arrows still fly nice.

droppixel
04-18-2012, 09:43 AM
Guys I will admit I was wrong. I played with it some more today and got it. Arrows are flying straight and true and i am hitting where I aim. This was a tuning issue and I kinda feel embarrassed for not messing with it more before I asked a question. I cranked it back up to 60 lbs and arrows still fly nice.

no need for that ... if you didn't ask and start tinkering you never would have known or possibly got there. everyone on here has probably done something pretty stupid at one point or another ...

but the real thing is, what was out of whack or what did you have to do?

NuttyNative
04-18-2012, 11:46 AM
no need for that ... if you didn't ask and start tinkering you never would have known or possibly got there. what was out of whack or what did you have to do?

I'm curious too.

cmwr
04-18-2012, 08:32 PM
It was centershot but that doesn't seem to be all. Where the centershot ended up being set on my graduated slide of my Apache rest, was where I had it a few times in frustation and ended up moving it. It was a combo of centershot and form i guess. All I know is I started using a high grip. I don't have to do this with my old martin but with this one I shoot much better that way. At full draw I lift my heel off the saddle and the only part making contact is the skin between my thumb and index finger. My guess is that with full heel contact I was torquing my bow even though I was opening my hand. I also think using a high grip helps me follow through better. I just know at full draw I lift my hand on the saddle and shoot and the arrows fly straight to where I aim. Sometimes I throw the shot though. This is the most finicky bow I have ever shot. Not very forgiving at all. I am much more accurate and consistent with my 97 speed demon. But this bow is a blast to shoot.

droppixel
04-18-2012, 09:09 PM
Sounds like you are still in the "getting to know you" phase. I'm like that still with my Alien. It is so incredibly different from my Cheetah that it takes a lot of getting used to. I shoot the Cheetah lights out, just haven't quite got there with the Alien yet. Good to see you got it figured out and your finger on a plan for what the problem is/was.

wscywabbit
04-18-2012, 11:56 PM
These saddleback grips do take some getting used to. I had some fits going from the fat grip of my Saber to the narrow grip on my Onza. But once you get it figured out, man! These new grips are awesome!