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Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-29-2012, 06:14 AM
This was asked by a guy on another forum

Questions:

1. In the never ending quest for the ultimate in long range archery accuracy, all other things being equal, which is more critical, arrow straightness or uniformity of weight?

It would seem to me that varying weights would produce vertical “stringing” on the target (related to time-of-flight/velocity variations) while shafts with straightness issues (say .006” total indicated run out) would produce more rounded groupings.

2. On any given bow draw weight/draw length, will shafts of a slightly stiffer spine produce better groups than shafts of a slightly weaker spine or will the opposite be true?

Of course, answers submitted will require apt justification for given opinions!

and here is one of the answers

Straighter Arrows Shoot Straighter, Right?

http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/straightshooter.jpgFrom a pure physics standpoint, yes! Arrow straightness certainly does matter. Straighter arrows undeniably fly more accurately. In long-range laboratory conditions with a mechanical shooting machine, the straightest arrows with the best spine consistencies will always group best. But try to keep this issue in reasonable perspective. You are not a mechanical shooting machine. You don't shoot in laboratory conditions, and you probably don't shoot at extreme distances (100+ yards). The straightness difference in a ±.006" arrow and a ±.001" arrow is literally the width of a single human hair. So realistically, the ±.001" arrow probably has more to do with selling arrows than shooting arrows. The truth is, only a handful of the world's archers actually have enough shooting skill to differentiate between a very good ±.003" arrow and a "pro grade" ±.001" arrow. And within the typical bowhunting range, any difference would be practically imperceptible.




What do you think?




Hutch:cool:

Thermodude
04-29-2012, 06:27 AM
Very good points! In this age of marketing warfare people seem to really get hung up in the hype of specs. I admit that Im guilty as well. JMO but Id wadger to say that not to many of us will ever be able to shoot our equipment to its true potential.

droppixel
04-29-2012, 09:26 AM
.006 Boss! At least until I get a sponsor or something similar, I got kids to feed!

deerchser
04-29-2012, 11:36 AM
On number 1, I dont think either of them matter too much. .006 or .001 arrows fly the same for me and the magority of us on this forum. As or weight, I would tend to think that would have more effect. However, the difference in weight between arrows would have to be a minumum of 10 grains of greater between arrows to make any real difference at the distances we shoot.

Number 2, depends on the bow, Release of fingures. It also depends on if you really care about tuning. For example, shen I first started shooting archery I was getting groups of 1" at 30 and 40 yards with a GT 5575. When I got and shot my broadheads the where flying low and left, I didnt know anything about tuning at the time. After learning about tuning and trying to paper tune the arrows I found that I had to switch to a 340 or 300 spine arrow to get consistant flight with the broadheads. I could still shoot 1" groups the differance was the broadheads where following my field points much closer. So, no spine dont matter in compatition as much as in hunting.

bfisher
04-29-2012, 01:04 PM
Some pretty logical answers thus far and I tend to agree. There was a time when I could shoot well enough to tell the difference between .006 and .003, but not between .003" and .001". However, some of this difference might have been that the straighter arrows were of tighter tolerances all round, meaning weight and spine consistency. When I was on Gold Tip's staff they always sent me Pro series shafts
(.001"). Shooting a shorter draw length I always checked them and ended up cutting 2" off the nock end and the remainder off the point end. This has proven many times to yield a straighter shaft and supposedly being .001" to start with straightness was never an issue.

I did once have batch of Ultralite Entradas that spine consistancy just sucked. One arrow in particular I remember having spine deviation of .015". Just for s.... and giggles I tossed my 12 year old 3-28 ACC's in the spine tester and none varied more than .002". Maybe that's why they have always shot more consistently than AC arrows I've had. Therefore I'm going to vote spine consistency as the most important feature of an arrow.

As for weight, how many people really know how little 10 grains is? If the difference is in the shaft weight then it is spread out over the length of the shaft so would have little effect on accuracy, IMO. Now if the difference is at one end, say at the point (field tips suck) then that could change foc so I agree this could cause vertical stringing at realy long distances, but nothing extreme till shooting past 60 yards or so.

I once weighed a batch of Bohning 4" vanes. Most were about 8.8 grains, but there were quite a few that weighed over 12 grains and one that was over 15 grains. So much for quality control. Mix these up when fletching and see how it affects the total weight and more importantly the balance around the arrow.

Now as far as being underspined or overspined? With maybe the exception of having large diameter shafts for indoors there should not be any over or under issues. That's what tuning is all about. Choosing a shaft that is close to proper spine and then tuning properly you should end up with as perfect a spine as humanly possible for the particular application. And I've said it so many times, "That's one of the most overlooked purposes of limb bolts on a bow".

wscywabbit
04-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Wow, lots of good stuff in here! I gotta say that conversations like these are one of the reasons I love this site.

For my 2 cents, I'd have to say that first and foremost, 99% of us can not shoot well enough to use modern equipment to its full potential. Period. I'm humble enough to admit that my bows shoot way better than I do, and I can't fault them for my inconsistancies and mistakes.

That being said, you put any bow on a hooter shooter, in a contained environment, and start flinging arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrows are properly spined or if the bow is tuned, the same arrow will hit the same spot everytime. Now you start mixing arrows of different spines in a group, you'll get different results; those are variables we face in every batch of arrows. But that is also part of this question isn't it?

I think that average backyard shooters and hunters the variances in a pack of arrows isn't going to matter much. Competition and long range shooters are going to have to be a bit pickier and do their own QC. Of the two, I think I could live with a little more leeway in weight than in spine; I'd rather have a vertical variance when shooting at an animal than horizontal any day. But then that's obviously because I hunt! :)

bob cooly
04-29-2012, 07:02 PM
Long range accuracy = one shot, one kill. years ago I decided with a rifle that with a rifle and my ability, 300 yards was it, and that is a very accurate Remington 700 ADL in .270 Winchester with a 3X9 Leupold on it. And that on a very solid rest. With archery tackle I define it as AMOA ( archery minute of angle), stating at 10 yards and using 1" per 10 yards of range if I can keep them inside of 6" groups at 40 yrds that's enough. I've got expensive arrows and not so expensive arrows and they all will work as far as I am able to shoot. As the instuctor said "make the first one count".

dugout
04-29-2012, 08:34 PM
I cut from both ends and, at length, often get shafts which weigh within a grain. I'm happy with that. As far a straightness, I just can't tell the difference between .006 and .001. I always figured it was me.
I am fiddling around with spine right now in a way which totally removes it from the equation.

Tosi
04-30-2012, 09:06 AM
A lot of you all are saying you can't tell the difference in arrow straightness .001-.006. I honestly believe that "straightness" is #1, also spine and weight have increased my accuracy over the years at targets out over 60 yards. Yes hunting and or 3D make a difference in arrow & bow set up. I can't tell you how many set ups I have tried over the years (backyard engineer). If you're shooting a 70lbs bow with a 7' brace and a medium to long draw 29'+ a heavier arrow 400g+ and a spine of 350 or better I have found works for hunting large game. I have also shoot most of the major arrow brands out theirs and have considered that Easton gives me the best groupings and punch for the midrange priced arrow on the market. If folks are new to the sport, theirs so many web sights on arrow and the mechanics on the arrow and arrow flight for then to research. It all comes down to what set up feels and shoots best for the shooter and if price is an issue on choice. The best advise is stay with what works and don't change depending on the bow in use.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-30-2012, 06:43 PM
Thanks for posting guys.
Here are my findings. My shooting machine will put any arrow in the same hole every time. No matter how straight it is or isn't. With that being said I have taken 6 of the same arrows .003 and shot them through the machine. Only 2 hit together. Why? Same weights, lengths and tips. Reason they where not tuned. Once tuned the arrows grouped in a 2" circle. Now as for cheap Walmart arrows they where the same way. All over the board, once tuned they all hit in a 2 to 2.5 inch circle. Straightness has some importance but not to hunters. Only long range and target shooters would see or notice the difference. But as for the average Joe on the street it means nothing. I have shot both .003 and lesser ones and could put it in the bulls eye at 60 to 70 yards. Could I do it regularly with the lesser ones probably not. But once is all you need when you are hunting.





Hutch:cool:

Ehunter
04-30-2012, 08:17 PM
I have shot arrows from the .006 to the .001 straightness range, and can't tell a bit of difference. Granted, like Barry said, I take at least an inch off the fletch end of the .006 arrows. Then the rest of the point end. Manufacturer once told me that's a good way to make a .006 arrow into a .003 or better arrow. He said almost all of the runout is on the very ends.

b0w_bender
05-01-2012, 03:57 PM
the only rational thing to do to to resolve this is to bolt a bow to a shooting machine and shoot a dozen .006 arrows out of it at say a distance of 50 yards

Then do the same thing with the .001 arrows. Actually measure the grouping variance and publish it.

It would be nice to do this with multiple sets of arrows just to make it statistically significant. If the .001 arrows are significantly better than I would guess that would be a fantastic marketing tool. If they don't vary that much then that might explain why we don't see those numbers posted all over the manufacturers web sites? Either that or the difference is so great that we would never buy the .006 arrows if we new the truth. I'm betting on the former :-)

As far as weight goes take the same shooting machine and launch an arrow then add heavier points to it and see how it impacts the flight of the arrow and the impact point.

bfisher
05-01-2012, 04:48 PM
the only rational thing to do to to resolve this is to bolt a bow to a shooting machine and shoot a dozen .006 arrows out of it at say a distance of 50 yards

Then do the same thing with the .001 arrows. Actually measure the grouping variance and publish it.

It would be nice to do this with multiple sets of arrows just to make it statistically significant. If the .001 arrows are significantly better than I would guess that would be a fantastic marketing tool. If they don't vary that much then that might explain why we don't see those numbers posted all over the manufacturers web sites? Either that or the difference is so great that we would never buy the .006 arrows if we new the truth. I'm betting on the former :-)

As far as weight goes take the same shooting machine and launch an arrow then add heavier points to it and see how it impacts the flight of the arrow and the impact point.

I agree that a shooting machine would anwer the question, but there's more to it than just that. All the arrows would have to be checked for spine deviation, too, and weight checked. All this to compare apples to apples. Hutch could do it. He's got the machine and nothing but time on his hands. Whadda ya say Bill?

wscywabbit
05-01-2012, 05:24 PM
Ya Hutch, what about it? Did you hear the bus back over you there? LOL j/k Barry. ;)

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-01-2012, 05:43 PM
Help I've been thrown under the bus!!!!http://www.archerysite.net/vb/images/smilies/eek.gif Well Barry and Wabbit I have already done .006 and .003 shafts. But I can't afford the .001 any donations.:rolleyes:





Hutch:cool:

bfisher
05-01-2012, 09:15 PM
Help I've been thrown under the bus!!!!http://www.archerysite.net/vb/images/smilies/eek.gif Well Barry and Wabbit I have already done .006 and .003 shafts. But I can't afford the .001 any donations.:rolleyes:





Hutch:cool:

I'm on fixed income!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ehunter
05-02-2012, 05:14 AM
Hutch, I could send you a couple of each, but they are all different weights and spines. Al Victory VAP's, but the .006 are 300 spine, the .003 are 340 spine, and the .001 are 340 spine. Think that would work? And yes, I do want them back. lol

Tosi
05-02-2012, 09:04 AM
WOW! Too funny guys, I just shi__ my self laughing..... "No commits please"....

deerchser
05-02-2012, 03:06 PM
WOW! Too funny guys, I just shi__ my self laughing..... "No commits please"....

OH come on, just one please.................


As Hutch has already stated, he got decent groups out of the arrows he has already thrown through the shooter. I dont think there will be much if any differance in the .001 arrows. As said before, it came down to tuning for the arrows. I can only assume that would hole true or the .001 arrows as well. Accuracy is in the archer, not the bow. Any bow can shoot bulls, not every archer can.

bfisher
05-02-2012, 05:19 PM
OH come on, just one please.................


As Hutch has already stated, he got decent groups out of the arrows he has already thrown through the shooter. I dont think there will be much if any differance in the .001 arrows. As said before, it came down to tuning for the arrows. I can only assume that would hole true or the .001 arrows as well. Accuracy is in the archer, not the bow. Any bow can shoot bulls, not every archer can.

Too----not----two.