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Sonny Thomas
02-08-2013, 09:42 PM
No one likes Bohning vanes better than I and I buy them by the hundreds. I think I have tried all their present vanes except the Micro Mini and 5 inches. I have also tried NAP Twisters and the 2 and their 4 inch Quick Spins. I use to buy AAE vanes by the hundreds. I tried a few Norways, R2, Predator and Duravane. I tried VanTec, Easton and a couple of others. I test things and to the tune of several hundred times. All the vanes I tried performed and only two I just did not like. The disliked was the Norway Predator and the NAP 4" Quick Spin. All vanes did as they were intend to do, guide the arrow. Most all were fletched as per instructions (except for glue) and some exceeded instructions. Accuracy never suffered. Speed may have been effected, but if you're sighted in it really doesn't matter, now does it?

Virtually all today's hyped 2 inch vanes are said not to exceed 2 to 3 degrees of offset, Blazers, Twisters and the such. It is not that exceeding 2 or 3 degrees effects accuracy, but can effect down range speed. How far down range? I don't know as I'm setting my Chronograph down range 60 or 80 yards to find out. But for normal to perhap a bit beyond huntings distances you won't see enough to worry about. The average killing distance for whitetails remains 19 yards. Today's bows, hyped as they are, you would think the average distance would be extended. And today's bows and information now available to aid hunters puts a combination together so that clean 40 yards shots are a real possibility.

Accuracy. Every vane I tested was tested between 20 and 30 yards. A few were tested beyond this, out to 80 yards. Not one failed. My opinion; Proper bow set up and correct arrow and build has more to do with accuracy than vanes. My proof; Rip one vane off the arrow and still hit the X ring at 20 yards. Other proof; NAP technician; We have produced 2 inch groups at 60 yards with only the fletching area of the arrow weighted with tape.
Removing one vane. Friend of mine was practicing in the shop's indoor range. As I watched a vane fell off the arrow went other than intended. He remarked it was because the vane came off. I retrieve his arrow and had him shoot it again. And again the arrow went wayward. I then ripped a Mini Blazer off my arrow and fired, drilling the X ring. I did this 3 times back to back. I took one of mine test arrows fletched with a NAP 2" Twister, ripped one vane off and promptly drilled the X ring, twice. I tuned his bow. He was quite happy with the results.....


Noise. All passed but the one above disliked, the Predator. It gave a unliked noisy flutter sound. The NAP 4" Quick Spin; For my testing for the past two years, the 4" NAP Quick Spin gets failing marks. I won't use them again for hunting. My opinion; Deer jump vane noise than they jump the string and I had deer do that more with the Quick Spin more than any vane I've ever used for hunting.
All other vanes produced some noise, some less, some more, but all about equal. Here, I fired from 50 yards and had a friend stand down range and is a safe spot 20 yards before the target. He heard every arrow before it hit the target and this regardless of vane.

My opinion; No vane gave outstanding qualities as for visual aid in finding if lost in the grass. Most all arrows recovered were found using a rake, hooked rod, metal detector or pure luck. Bright orange gave the best visual aid in flight. White came in second.

Pics; Green Twisters, one vane removed, 2 shots. Rinehart center, 30 yards with different make of arrows/vanes, Mini Blazer, Blazer, Shield cut, VanTec, Neon. Neon, pretty, but it really show up? Bohning 1 3/4" Shield Cut X vane group at 55 yards when sighting in new bow. Bag, 2" Blazers, 80 yards.

Tosi
02-08-2013, 10:43 PM
Okay, personal preference get it....

Sonny Thomas
02-09-2013, 10:29 AM
Additional;
One, I am a stickler for arrow prep. I PMed with Arrow Splitter earlier; "Arrow prep is the key. Vane and all glue removed, I use those green Scotch Brite scrub pads to extra clean glue and scuff surface of shaft. I then use denatured alcohol and wipe them clean. I use a paper towel soaked enough to do this and turn towel so clean area is present to clean shaft. De-natured alcohol dries super fast, virtually no waiting. I do not clean bases of the vanes."
I will not use rubbing alcohol or acetone and I gave more for cleaning, but this should suffice.

Jig setting is a must. The base of the vane must seat properly, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Short vanes probably give more problems than all others vanes. I have found a solution. I place a matching vane in the opposite end of the clamp to eliminate clamp tilt. Short vane and the longer part of the clamp dips down. See picture.

Glue; I use Bohning Platinum because I like it. However, by instructions of Vane makers a different glue may be suggested. What can and does happen is the base of the vane can wrinkle. I have used many other glues used for vanes and have had good to excellent results. Most all glue failures come from improper prepping of the shaft or body oils from touching the vane by the hands or fingers.
Here is the other part I PMed Arrow Splitter;
"I use Bohning Patinum glue all but 100% of the time. How good does this work out for me? 5 to 7 minutes per vane will do for waiting. And I've been known to shoot new fletched arrows almost right of the jig, but mostly 5 to 15 minutes. But like I noted, I don't shoot through anything and don't pull the arrow so that my hand slips to catch the vanes. And it doesn't make any difference whether fletched straight, offset or full helical."

Don B
03-26-2013, 03:05 PM
Sonny,
If you ever get a chance to try out the Gator vanes, let me know what you think of them. They are all I use, feather and plastic.
Don.

typically8
03-26-2013, 07:57 PM
I will agree, personal preferance. I started with 3'' aae moved to Norway. Now I am experimenting with shooting 4 2'' Vantecs. I actually like the Vantec set up. It seems to be alot quietter. I dont want to jump on the Bohning band wagon yet. I love fletching arrows, it must be the glue.:o

macflash
03-26-2013, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE=Sonny Thomas;100445]The NAP 4" Quick Spin; For my testing for the past two years, the 4" NAP Quick Spin gets failing marks. I won't use them again for hunting. My opinion; Deer jump vane noise than they jump the string and I had deer do that more with the Quick Spin more than any vane I've ever used for hunting.

Oh my, great save Sonny, I had some old aluminum's that I put these on and was gonna try them for deer this year and save the carbons for Elk, guess they will be used for flinging in the yard, and I'll have to try my hand at fletching now

Sonny Thomas
03-27-2013, 09:09 AM
Mac, it's my opinion. Okay? One, I fletched mine with the jig set to almost, if not 3 degrees - lazy me didn't want to reset the jig. NAP Quick Spins should be fletched straight, in my opinion.

Going to be sorting out my collection of archery stuff and may have a few hundred vanes go up for sale, Bohning Mini Blazers, NAP Twisters, some Vantec, and a bunch of NAP 2 and 4" Quick Spins.

bfisher
03-27-2013, 10:11 AM
Sonny, I'm sure with all your years of shooting and therefore knowledge it should be evident that too much helical can be detrimental to down range accuracy. Not only can too much degrade speed, but can destabilize the arrow. That could be the reason no more than 2 degrees is recommended. I agree with you about the Quickspins. That little "kicker" at the tail end of the vane is what provides the necessary "helical".

Personally, because I once shot Martin's X system on a Slayr I got to liking the Duravane LP 400 when I shot vanes for hunting. Most times I still prefer feathers.

Sonny Thomas
03-27-2013, 11:51 AM
Yes, Barry, too much helical can effect flight and speed. I also thought the 4" NAPs set to somewhat of 3 degrees had my arrow drop off far more than the 4" AAEs I had used for years.

There's always doubt of some kind when reading of others and their issues and successes. So it becomes doubly (?) person perference?

I loved 4" feathers when I shot aluminum. When going to carbon I switched to plastic vanes. Ahh! Feathers and Vanes, two different feathers of the same kind! Feathers are feathers called vanes and Vanes are plastic ;)

Now, if I happen to latch on to another recurve, feathers...and maybe cresting...

macflash
03-27-2013, 09:31 PM
Just like Barry said sonny, you have a wealth of knowledge, and if I can keep from making "mistakes" that anyone who has shot for years has, I'm gonna listen. and I was wrong about quick spins, they are quick fletches, the soak in hot water to shrink on the shaft, ... good quick fix for the field ... not much for anything else, and I don't just carry one arrow in the quiver so .. not much use to me, I was just being lazy :o

bob cooly
03-28-2013, 09:07 AM
I've been the course of 4" Vanes, Nap Quick Fletch ( too pricy), Twisters, Norway Fusions, Blazers, now some 4" Shield Cut Trueflights. End result for me is Blazers on a Ariz. Mini and feathers with a right Arizona that I used my Dremel Tool to widen the opening just enough to use it with feathers. The feathers are the best to 30 yrds. Arrow prep is, cut to my 29" lenght by taking 1" off the nock end and then square the nock end, cut arrow to 29" and square the insert end before inserts are glued in, final square of the inserts to get my broadheads lined up and I'am done. Lately been really piling the 340 Axis with feathers out to 30 yards. Gobblers are gonna catch a Muzzy 125 Phantom if I can get one into 30 yards.

typically8
03-28-2013, 10:48 AM
Mac, fletching is easy. It will give you the chance to try out different types of vanes and pick the brand you like besJo Jan use a jojan single fletcher and can get an arrow done in about a minute not counting any prep time.

Sonny Thomas
03-28-2013, 12:08 PM
Arrow squaring, something I don't do and don't believe in if the arrow is cut properly to start with.

I have the shop's arrow saw set so the blade just cuts the wall of the shaft. I roll the shaft into the blade and keep rolling the shaft until the cut is complete and spin the arrow a couple of times after the cut is complete. Not once of going on 5 years have I had a complaint.

I will cut arrows as the customer wants, half and half, and I charge them double. 1 cut is one price, so 2 cuts should be double.

elkslayer4x5
03-29-2013, 09:24 AM
I have always cut my arrows using the same technique as Sonny describes, and have never had a wobbley point. YMMV :)

bob cooly
03-29-2013, 06:00 PM
My cheapo saw and being a former reloader have left me with a compulsive perfectionist veiw. I do notice though if I mark the end of uncut or cut ends with a silver marker and then touch the end to my sqaring tool the arrows are not as square as I desire. Just me.

peace
03-29-2013, 10:38 PM
...and then add the raggedy end of a glued in insert. Does anyone square the insert once installed?
:cool:

Sonny Thomas
03-30-2013, 06:43 AM
...and then add the raggedy end of a glued in insert. Does anyone square the insert once installed?
:cool:

I think I understand what you're saying, I think, and I have brought this up before...Always got some song and dance routine throw back at me...Probably because they were miffed ;) .
Me, I like snug inserts, okay a little of press to seat them. Unsquared shaft and all, you shove that insert in and that's it, done. The barrel of the insert is aligned to the inside of the arrow shaft and the collar of the insert stops on whatever high spot of the unsquared arrow shaft end. So much for squaring the end of the arrow shaft.

elkslayer4x5
03-30-2013, 09:10 AM
I think I understand what you're saying, I think, and I have brought this up before...Always got some song and dance routine throw back at me...Probably because they were miffed ;) .
Me, I like snug inserts, okay a little of press to seat them. Unsquared shaft and all, you shove that insert in and that's it, done. The barrel of the insert is aligned to the inside of the arrow shaft and the collar of the insert stops on whatever high spot of the unsquared arrow shaft end. So much for squaring the end of the arrow shaft.

My thoughts exactly, how can it be anything but straight?

peace
03-30-2013, 11:07 PM
My thoughts exactly, how can it be anything but straight?

Geometry and Trigonometry 101. Bam!

macflash
03-30-2013, 11:22 PM
Oh man She's gonna kill me, I can hear it now, " What the heck do you need that for, just get the ones that are already made," ;)
you guys are gonna be the death of me :o.
But I'll be goin "HOME" with a smile for a couple reasons :cool:
And trig was my strong suit, simple math kills me 2+2=5 but I can proooove it:p

Sonny Thomas
03-31-2013, 07:40 AM
Math. Piece of cake. I did well in math until I hit Algebra. All but flunked that. Teacher offered me a passing grade so long as I didn't take Geometry. Years later, due to needing more math to advance I took a crash course in Geometry and Trig. I first brushed up with Advanced math before. I passed with flying colors. I thought Geo. and Trig. easier the Algebra. From there, for shop stuff, it was just learning formulas. Now, the kicker is after all those classes I never once used any of it in the shop :mad: I didn't have to. It's all worked out with computers and machines now.

First, Fractions are a piece of cake. What's half of 1/8? Simple, 1/16. What's half of 7/64? Again simple, 7/128. All you do is double the dominator. What's one fourth of 3/16? 3/64. All you do is double the dominator twice.

Those GPS thingies. Same difference as in finding location of a bore or drilled or a tapped hole in a transmission case or engine block. GPS units work off coordinates established on a larger scale and some times referred to as triangulation. The formula isn't much different. For bore location; The square root of X squared plus y squared times 2 equals "you are here."

Tosi
03-31-2013, 12:16 PM
guy's this is all good stuff. Thanks Sonny for starting this as I learned from it. The bottom line for a lot of us is the local shops charges $2.50 and arrow, $3.50 with a wrap for re-fletching. Mac look at the AZ Easy Fletch minnie, easy quick and clean. I got my saw off Craigslist for $40 bucks. Ebay is a good sources for archery equipment also. I shoot Norway Zeon Fusions with a white wrap. Man they light up, even in low light. The white wrap helps you see the flight. I still use Blazer on the rest of the family, you really cant go wrong with blazers. Like Sonny said prep on the arrow is #1.

macflash
04-01-2013, 10:14 PM
Mac look at the AZ Easy Fletch minnie, easy quick and clean. I got my saw off Craigslist for $40 bucks. Ebay is a good sources for archery equipment also.
Thanks Tosi,
I still have the question about Helical, offset, or straight, ... Helical being the degrees " pivoted" on center of the vane on center of the shaft?, offset would be whole vane set off center of the shaft ?:confused: almost like a 3 blade turkey broadhead looks ??, and If I'm correct straight is just that , so with a bow in the mid 250's, 260's, What set up would you use for fletching? ... AGAIN? MORE LEARNING? WHAT?? SAY IT ISN'T SO!!:rolleyes:
Mac
Oh and do I need to use wraps on carbon shafts, I'm guessing they are only for looks, and or to help adhesion ??

Sonny Thomas
04-02-2013, 07:36 AM
Helical is a curve, spiral if you will. Most full size clamps are 11 degrees over a 5 inch length.

Rare and almost non-extistent is a 5 degree helical clamp. I don't believe it is made anymore. BUT! Bitzenburger will custom make clamps.

Some say they add offset to a helical clamp. WRONG! There is no offsetting. 11 degrees is 11 degrees. The only adjustment is to properly seat the vane.

Bohning came out with the Helix jig which puts a true 3 degree helical for their 2" Blazer, which works for all 2" vanes.

Straight clamps are straight, of course, but can be offset up to 3 degrees. Less for smaller diameter arrows and maybe more for larger diameter arrows.

Wraps came into being more for looks than for better adhering of vanes, but some people swear by them. At around $15 for a dozen I got better things to spend my money on, especially the way I go through arrows.

Tosi
04-02-2013, 08:12 AM
Thanks Tosi,
I still have the question about Helical, offset, or straight, ... Helical being the degrees " pivoted" on center of the vane on center of the shaft?, offset would be whole vane set off center of the shaft ?:confused: almost like a 3 blade turkey broadhead looks ??, and If I'm correct straight is just that , so with a bow in the mid 250's, 260's, What set up would you use for fletching? ... AGAIN? MORE LEARNING? WHAT?? SAY IT ISN'T SO!!:rolleyes:
Mac
Oh and do I need to use wraps on carbon shafts, I'm guessing they are only for looks, and or to help adhesion ??

Mac, the nice thing about fletching yourself is you can try different fletching along with arrow set up that meet your demands. For me I like the AZ Minnie with a max right helical as my Brodhead fly perfect with a Slick Trick 100g mag out to 80 yards. Plus my arrow is 29" long at 420g shooting on a 29" draw with a 340 spine. On my hunting arrows I use a white 3" wrap with Neon Fussion as they are really easy to find and see in flight they stick graet too!. I used a straight fletch for years and then tried quick spines; they worked WO a right helical. Put a right helical on a qick spin and it was over kill. My arrows would get a drift to the right over 40 yards with a Brodhead. I don't think you could go wrong with a straight fletch "just don't tell the White House" LOL.

macflash
04-03-2013, 01:10 AM
Mac, the nice thing about fletching yourself is you can try different fletching along with arrow set up that meet your demands. For me I like the AZ Minnie with a max right helical as my Brodhead fly perfect with a Slick Trick 100g mag out to 80 yards. Plus my arrow is 29" long at 420g shooting on a 29" draw with a 340 spine. On my hunting arrows I use a white 3" wrap with Neon Fussion as they are really easy to find and see in flight they stick graet too!. I used a straight fletch for years and then tried quick spines; they worked WO a right helical. Put a right helical on a qick spin and it was over kill. My arrows would get a drift to the right over 40 yards with a Brodhead. I don't think you could go wrong with a straight fletch "just don't tell the White House" LOL.

And of course, ( as if there was any doubt), you guys have answered my questions perfectly, enough to get started anyway. I'll be using, carbon express shafts to start with, they are straight fletch out of the box. I still have to get the bow set up to be sure where I wanna go. I'm thinking NAP thunderheads to start with for a broadhead, this bow will be mainly hunting with a little 3d now and then, there's a course ( I just found out) right down the road :cool:, I just put the tru glo xs carbon 4 pin on it .. lol told Hutch it needs a little .... tuning, it was a little high, okay a foot but man does this thing shoot.
and I found that minnie wasn't the one I first saw, yeah looks like a great little jig !! and again price is right, I will need to get a saw and cut shafts down, they come at 30 but I can get away with taking an inch out, re-glue an insert, put a 100 gr. head on it and I'll keep you informed as to what happens next.
thanls again you guys, you're the best, and yes definitely thank you Sonny for starting this one
Mac