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View Full Version : wavy vanes - clearance problems?



Lukeiio
02-20-2013, 03:57 AM
i just discoverd that my new 4" vanes became sort of wavy after the the first 20 shots or so.

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coud this be due to fletching contact/ clearance problems and can the wavy vanes affect accuracy and arrow flight?? im using the nap quicktune 3000.

Arrow Splitter
02-20-2013, 06:38 AM
I think so. It looks like only one vane is hitting, which makes sense. Use powder to find out were it's hitting. As far as accuracy goes, it's possible it could be effecting accuracy, but I haven't done a test to know for sure.

Also, you can fix the vane by using a blow dryer.

A.S

Sonny Thomas
02-20-2013, 07:33 AM
By the nock position and wavy vane it appears the arrow is being driven into the block of the prongs. I've seen this before when timing has been off. Can you post pic of rest with arrow nocked?

I've shot many arrows that had wavy, shot up vanes and accuracy was never a problem. At one time I carried a repair pouch on my quiver belt, this when our group shot together every weekend. Extra nocks for those split or busted, assorted points, a length of serving to serve peeps, super glue (quick fix for loose vane), and scotch tape for punctured or torn vanes. All worked to get us through a 3D. Back then 3Ds were all 40 targets. Figure 5 and 6 in a group and arrows piled up at the target.

I posted a pic of how I have my QuikTune 3000s. http://martinarchery.com/mtechforum/showthread.php?25703-Blade-Rest-for-Hunting&p=100964#post100964

Lukeiio
02-20-2013, 09:33 AM
here are the pics.

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i dont know how there can be fletching contact, i shoot one vane down and two vanes up.. the vanes shouldnt even know that there is a rest.. :confused:

Sonny Thomas
02-20-2013, 11:23 AM
Meanest bow I ever tackled was a Hoyt Command Cam bow. This pit bull bow would drive the nock down, rippling the bottom vane as it crushed into the cut off of a QuikTune 4000 (NAP's first drop rest). There problems were in effect. One the timing of the bow. Two, the draw cord was attched to the cable slide. Three, the prongs of the 4000 were too short (later corrected by NAP). Two problems were kind of easy to solve. The prongs were pulled out as far as they would go and still be tightened down on. The draw cord was re-adjusted to remove as much cable slide pull as possible. Timing was a ..... Yep, it was. My black fade to orange and yellow flames was outstanding after snyced and timed as per instructions from Hoyt benchman who knew these sweat heart monsters. This bow drove arrows down into the rest so that after a few shots it would not rippled the vanes, but start to tear them off.
Done. Onward.

Your bow, isssues;
Rest to bow looks good....

I set up a profile off your picture. The top edge of my pic is dead level to your arrow. I then ran 2 lines, one from top edge of block and one line to what could possibly be the clearance cut out in the block (not there to see). I then worked from the arrow and put in 2 more lines and a division line. Looks close, but unsure if clearance is the problem. All correct there shouldn't be contact even close as it looks. Powder test should prove...

If Cat or Nitro cams it would appear to be timing, bottom cam over riding the top cam. Can't see loop real well, but appears on the verge of a lazy ">", hook up point slightly down to arrow nock - possibly another indicator of timing. Limbs maxed out or equally backed off? Check.

Okay, all is a personal observation.

If limbs are maxed out or equally backed off and Cat or Nitro cams; I'd back off the draw stop and draw bow either on a draw board or have some one watch cables come to mods with slowly coming to full draw, don't force into mods. Thinking bottom will hit first. Perferred; Cable to top mod should lay in groove slightly before cable in bottom mod. Half twist will usually do.

Again, observation. You and bow there and us here.....

Lukeiio
02-20-2013, 11:29 PM
@Sonny Thomas: thanks for all the effort!!

my bow has a single cam (fury) so i guess cam and draw stop sync is not so much the issue, i heard of timing problems with single cam bows though.
i still have a little bit of wheel lean, but thats minimal..

i had the bow set with the -10 peg (~60#, 28" draw length) and the limbs 1/4 turn out each. i use 340 beman hunter arrows 28", 125gr points, so i thought i could be seriously overspined and set the bow to stnd peg (~70#).
im not completely sure if the problem is solved..

is it even possible for a minimal spine problem to cause fletching contact with the nap quicktune and 1 vane down/ 2 up??

i have never done a powder test, but i will do it asap. btw paper tune shows a massive "tail-right" hole, even with 70#. -> overspine?? (papertuning... i dont trust it, i had excellent set ups which produced awful holes..)

daiwateampenn
02-20-2013, 11:42 PM
Maybe you try the powder test first, to get the vane 100% clearance first before going for papertuning.

wavy vane most probably causes from the contact with some part at the rest.

Do update us.

typically8
02-21-2013, 12:25 AM
I find lipstick (pink) transfers better and easier to clean off then the powder. Good luck.

Lukeiio
02-21-2013, 01:16 AM
ok, i used dry shampoo to do the powder test and i think it confirmed fletching contact.

seems like the left prong has contact with the down-vane, right prong is pretty close to the right up-vane but has no contact. i nocked the arrow perfectly straight, looks like the arrow rotates before it has completely left the rest or something?!

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how do i fix this??

Sonny Thomas
02-21-2013, 07:43 AM
Isn't first time I've ran into things like this. It just a process of elimination. Has to be in here somewhere unless something not told or shown.....

By the looks of the vane it's bending from the arrow driven down into the rest.

Spine is not the issue.
Arrow isn't spinning to give this.
Dual cams eliminated.

Possible weak limb, but not likely. Check tiller. Run string from axle to axle and check from string. Should be equal.

Timing for a single wouldn't give this...unless radically off. ??? Cam would be severely re-tarded, I believe, to weird nock travel. Most all single cams do well with 1/8 to 1/4" nock high setting. 3/8" is rare, but not unheard of.

Rule for rest; set spring tension set so nocked arrow won't return to full height, bow at rest. Draw bow, something of less half drawn, and spring tension will bring arrow up as it should be. Said is wanting the arrow to float with bow at rest. Ain't happening with today's current prong rest unless the Bododdle Conquest or Bullet is still around. Only rests I know of where you could shake bow and the rest would allow arrow to look floating, gently bouncing rest/arrow if you will.

Possible draw stop position. Forget who in here, but he had his draw stop set wrong and not getting good anything. He had adjusted the draw length and didn't know the draw stop had to be set accordingly. What was happening was him drawing hard enough to bend the cable over the draw module before the draw stop hit. Will give funky results.
Probably not needed, but; back off draw stop. Draw bow until cable lays flat in mod groove. Set draw stop. Normal is to back off draw stop 1/32" (sharp pencil line on cam face around draw stop), tighten to allow for rubber cover. I don't.

Possible center shot; Rest not set correctly can create problems that can give false results. Start from square one. Eye ball horizontal center shot; Align bow string to groove of top wheel and move rest to align arrow to align string/wheel groove. As wheel groove and cam groove are slightly offset arrow should either align or be very slightly to the inside.

Test; This backwards of normal correcting, but looking for error. Position nocking point 1/4" high. Shoot through paper. First correct horizontal if need be. Then correct vertical if need be.

Lukeiio
02-21-2013, 08:29 AM
@ Sonny Thomas: i set my spring tension like you said, thats a really cool tip!! maybe this will solve the problem, i will powder test again soon, arrow flight (tail right) looks better now!

i also narrowed my prongs a little bit, i think this could help as well.

here are pics of my cam setting, but i think it should be ok. with the stnd peg this should be 28" draw length or so.

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Lukeiio
02-22-2013, 03:52 AM
btw my fletching is slightly offset (not helical) and im unable to adjust my fletching jig (bohning), this thing is terrible.. maybe this could cause the contact!? i ran out of powder, but the last test after i set the spring tension still showed fletching contact.

paper tuner shows a perfect bullet hole now.. wtf? so i guess i shouldnt change the center shot adjustments and nock height?

i ordered arizona max hunting vanes and 2" blazers, just in case i cant get the 4" fletching working..

Lukeiio
02-22-2013, 06:38 AM
powder test with blazers shows good clearance.

Sonny Thomas
02-22-2013, 07:55 AM
??? Bohning Tower fletching jig? If so, there shouldn't be a problem as earlier models were 2 degrees and later models 3 degrees. Only the Bohning Helix is different by having a true 3 degree offset for 2" vanes. It won't handle 4" vanes.

From the pictures of your arrows you do not have a overly offset vane. I'll set up a comparison pic. Your fletching shows something of 2 or 3 degrees. Mine is 5 degrees and I have no contact whatsoever.

I can't recall what, if any, offset degree the Arizona tower has. But! 2" Blazers have a higher profile the your 4" vanes.

I'd still perform all checks as something just isn't right. ??? Lower mounting position of rest and raise prongs to give same arrow height. Note position of my prong block and angle of prongs.... ???? Check/rule out; any residue towards the front of your riser shelf, like a skid mark or powder from arrow? What stabilizer?

Lukeiio
02-24-2013, 05:07 AM
thanks for all the help, i found out whats wrong now!!

after i noticed that Sonny Thomas has no plastic tubes on his prong style rest, i took a closer look at mine and discovered that the left tube was deformed and worn (mainly on the inside). powder test showed fletching contact on the left side, so i removed the tubes and calibrated the prongs. -> no clearance problem anymore!!

thanks again for your help and effort! :)

Sonny Thomas
02-24-2013, 08:09 AM
Good you found the problem. As thought, something not said or shown (reply #10). Happens.

Those plastic silence tubes for the prongs are a royal pain. First thing I do is remove them and I should have pointed that out. They wear before you know it and then problems occur and it's "what the heck is going on?". I think I posted pics of my bows with the QuikTune 3000s, no plastic covers on the prongs.

Back a bit; Setting the spring tension to give "float" makes for forgiveness. This is applical on all swing type prongs rests.