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davik
03-03-2013, 06:37 PM
I have a new nemesis and it came with the 3S cams...my question is; The 3L cams set at 27.5" (shortest post on the module) and the 3S cam set at 27.5" mmiddle of the module...which setup will be faster? or will the speed be the same?

WildWilt15
03-03-2013, 07:28 PM
I have a new nemesis and it came with the 3S cams...my question is; The 3L cams set at 27.5" (shortest post on the module) and the 3S cam set at 27.5" mmiddle of the module...which setup will be faster? or will the speed be the same?

I believe the 3l cams lowest setting is 28.

davik
03-03-2013, 07:50 PM
No...the 3L's go to 27.5...I have both on different bows, and the 3L cam is 27.5 to 30.5 and the 3S cams are 25.5 to 28.5

Sonny Thomas
03-04-2013, 06:43 AM
Only true way is to shoot them. On different bows presents other issues to consider. Both Nemesis then they should be close.

davik
03-05-2013, 08:27 AM
Only true way is to shoot them. On different bows presents other issues to consider. Both Nemesis then they should be close.

Close isnt the problem...I'm trying t figure out how close...if there's an advantage to going with the bigger cams on this nemesis, I'll change, but if there's no difference then I won't...I know the smaller cams made a poundage difference on this bow, which equates into speed, I just don't want to have to spring for new cams, etc unless the difference is appreciable. Right now, I'm pulling 60 pounds to get the same speed as I do on the Onza (bigger cams) at 54 pounds...

bfisher
03-05-2013, 10:14 AM
The large cam is naturally going to give you more speed for a given draw length and weight. I haven't seen a 2013 bow yet, but I assume they have changed the designation of the cams. What was once a 2.0 cam must be the large one (L) and 1.5 is now the small one (S). I have no idea what the number 3 means.
However, the larger cam will give more leverage to roll it over so the rule of thumb is that the draw weight of your limbs will drop ahout 10# from what it is now. So if your bow is maxed at 60# then it will drop to 50# or there abouts. In other words you probably have to change limbs, too.

Ball park figure for the new cams is $300. New limbs will be about $150. Then you need a longer string (cables will work). Now ask yourself if a gain of about 10-12 fps is worth upwards of $475.

wscywabbit
03-05-2013, 10:16 AM
A few things you need to consider in the differences between bow structure and set up;

the Nemesis has a longer ATA, which also equates to more string weight and slightly slower speeds than the Onza if everything else is the same, its just physics.

Other things to consider are the brace heights, is the Onza's brace shorter than your Nemesis? are they the same? A shorter brace will also give you slightly faster speeds as the the string has more time to inflect power and momentum into the arrow.

Are your let off amounts the same on the bows? The way to tell is to measure your hold weight at full draw, subtract that from the max poundage of the bow as it is currently set up, then divide that number by the max draw weight. A higher let off percentage will give you slower speeds.

Lastly is add ons; are the strings setup the same? Different peeps, d-loops, silencers, etc., along with more or less serving for your centers all have different weights. The more weight on the string the slower your speed will be.

In other words there are a lot of factors to speed, even if you were comparing a Nemesis to a Nemesis (which you are not) how they are set up can give you completely different results.

davik
03-05-2013, 09:09 PM
Bfisher answered my question...I need to return the bow to martin and get the right limbs and cams on it...thanks

wscywabbit
03-05-2013, 09:37 PM
No worries Davik, one way or another, someone on here always has the right answer... Oh and welcome to forum if I haven't said so already.

And Fisher, I believe that the 3 designation on the new cams just means Nitro 3, which is what the catalog is calling them this year, as opposed to the Nitro 2.0 from before. Other than shaving some weight by skeletonizing them like they did with the Hybrix version, I don't really see much of a difference in overall design....

joelc
03-06-2013, 08:52 AM
The large cam is naturally going to give you more speed for a given draw length and weight. I haven't seen a 2013 bow yet, but I assume they have changed the designation of the cams. What was once a 2.0 cam must be the large one (L) and 1.5 is now the small one (S). I have no idea what the number 3 means.
However, the larger cam will give more leverage to roll it over so the rule of thumb is that the draw weight of your limbs will drop ahout 10# from what it is now. So if your bow is maxed at 60# then it will drop to 50# or there abouts. In other words you probably have to change limbs, too.

Ball park figure for the new cams is $300. New limbs will be about $150. Then you need a longer string (cables will work). Now ask yourself if a gain of about 10-12 fps is worth upwards of $475.


Bfisher answered my question...I need to return the bow to martin and get the right limbs and cams on it...thanks

We've always seen the opposite...smaller cams tend to give better speed. In this case you'd be splitting hairs. The speed increase would be nominal and hardly worth the significant investment in new cams, string and limbs. Despite what any printed material may say our dual cam bows will all shoot at approx. the same fps. It is simply not worth the money for 2-3 fps. As I explained on the phone to davik...the Onza will ALWAYS be the more efficient bow. There is nothing we can do here a the factory to change that.

Sonny Thomas
03-06-2013, 12:21 PM
//// The speed increase would be nominal and hardly worth the significant investment in new cams, string and limbs. Despite what any printed material may say our dual cam bows will all shoot at approx. the same fps. It is simply not worth the money for 2-3 fps. As I explained on the phone to davik...the Onza will ALWAYS be the more efficient bow. There is nothing we can do here a the factory to change that.

Now you know.

When the Onza III came out the staff/shop shooters in my area and I thought it should have been in the Pro Series line up.

joelc
03-06-2013, 05:20 PM
Now you know.

When the Onza III came out the staff/shop shooters in my area and I thought it should have been in the Pro Series line up.

Now I dont know...a dealer called today that read this thread and said he noticed approx. 10 fps difference between the cams favoring the larger 2.0 cam. In all of my years here at Martin I have never known the larger cam to be more efficient...both the dealer and I were surprised by his findings.

So...I dont know what to tell you. But I still say the cost is not worth the increased speed.

Sonny Thomas
03-06-2013, 06:00 PM
Not doubting the report one bit. I've set up identical bows and for what reason one was faster than the other. Same everything. It happens.

I also remember years back of the Tournament of Champions, I think was the name. Identical set up Cameros stock cars and one just flat out ran all others regardless of driver (each driver drove a different Camero for the event). One man supervised the building of the cars. It was inspected, complete tear down, and all was as the others. Tested it still out ran the others. It was finally removed the Championship.

davik
03-06-2013, 09:17 PM
It's not the speed that has me baffled, it's the draw weight...I can get the speed out of both bows...284fps with a 27" 300 gr arrow at 27.5" draw...on both bows...the problem comes with draw weight...on one, I get that speed at 54 pounds the outher 64 pounds...the problem lies in the fact that at 64 pounds, I am shooting less than 5gpp and this will not fly. I must do something to correct this to be safe.

Sonny Thomas
03-07-2013, 08:53 PM
I like to have your bows to see what is different. Like Joel noted the Onza will be the more efficient bow. There is 3/4" difference in ata and 1/4" difference in draw length. And there is actual draw length to measure. Some bows draw longer than others even though set to indentical reference lengths. Okay, 27" is a number, actual can be way different. Example my 2011 Shadowcat. It is set to 27" and measures exactly 28 1/4" AMO draw length and I had to twist the strings to get it this low.

What strings? Factroy? I've re-served a couple of HammerHead strings and lost speed, not much, but for sure lost speed. Difference being what Martin used and what I had on hand, BCY .021".

davik
03-08-2013, 03:24 PM
But all of this could be solved by a tech that's interested in finding out...take two identical Nemesi...is that the plural of Nemesis?one big cam the other small cam, and set the DL to 27.5 and fire them through the chronograph...one set of cams is going to be faster...which one? I ordered the Nemesis with the information that the smaller cams were more efficient...therefore faster...no one told me the Onza was going to be the more efficient bow...in fact, when I asked which would be better for the application, I was given a resounding vote FOR the nemesis...unfortunately, when the two were shipped to me by UPS...one got stolen...guess which one?! Convinced, I ordered the nemesis...with the more efficient smaller cams...and guess what? THE NEMESIS IS SLOWER THAN THE ONZA! surprise! the catalog says they are faster...or at least the same...they are not...my quest is to find out how to make the Nemesis shoot my arrow at 284 fps to be able to compete efficiently, without going over my poundage range and gpp. I am also trying to learn the bow as fast as I can to be able to compete. I have tweaked and twisted and adjusted this bow to wring as much out of it as I can with the current setup. I have a meeting with my rep on Wednesday to iron all of this out and figure out what I have to do to shoot these bows efficiently. I really like the way the Nemesis holds and shoots over the Onza, and would like to shoot the nemesis...keep you posted.

wscywabbit
03-08-2013, 06:03 PM
Unfortunately I have heard both sides to the larger Nitro vs. the smaller one, that the larger cam has more leverage and does better, or that the smaller cam is lighter and does better, I don't know the answer here. I do know that it's not really a speed thing between the two cams; its a feel thing, as well as a long draw vs a shorter draw. You can set up a draw length that falls in the range of both cams and have completely different feels with the valley and power curve.

So, if all things are equal between two bows except ATA, and the longer ATA bow will be slower everytime. Its just physics. There is tradeoff though; a shorter ATA may have a slight edge in speed, but a longer ATA has an edge in stability. When I bought my Onza, it was a choice between it and the Firecat 400. I chose the Onza because I knew that even though I would be giving up a little speed, I would have a more stable platform. Now can you tweak the slower bow to make it more efficient? Yes you can, so lets talk about that for a second.

As Sonny said, even little things can make a difference, including things like serving. You can remove some of the center serving, so that there is a minimal amount specific to your nock point, or even try going to a lighter serving material like Halo. Different peeps, silencers, shorter Dloop, etc. can do a good job while being lighter and offering a slight speed increase. Little things add up.

But you want the biggest bang? Max your bow out, make sure that all the measurements are to spec and the cams are timed (don't worry about draw lenght right now). Now back your bow down to the weight you want. Now set your draw length, starting with a longer module setting than you are used to, and using the draw stop to set your length by moving it towards the (-). This will shorten your valley and raise your hold weight, effectively lowering your let off %. The lower the letoff % the faster the arrow will fly. Find a setting that is COMFORTABLE for you. I ended up around 76-78% letoff (can't remember exactly) and was happy with that. The valley is smaller, but I can hold against the backwall and not feel like the bow it trying to take the arrow away.

davik
03-09-2013, 06:03 AM
I set mine up slightly differently than you...I have to watch arrow weight not draw weight...then I do all of the stuff you mentioned but with arrow weight in mind...the drawstop thing I'll try when I get back from Georgia next week...this was never about speed, it was about draw weight between the two bows...the Nemesis is 2" longer ATA, but the speed rating in the catalog says it's 5fps faster than the Onza, so I figured that I would be able to shoot it at the same weight as the Onza or a couple pounds heavier. It turned out to be 10 pound of draw weight heavier...that puts my arrow weight at less than 5gpp. To go to a heavier arrow is out of the question, and I've run out of limb adjustment to do that anyway(If I had been told that the bow was much slower, I could have bought 70 pound limbs and cranked them down to a desired speed, but I have 60 pound limbs based on the info given. I feel sure it will all work out, it's just the learning curve between shooting a mathews for 15 years and changing to a martin...questions...lots and lots of questions.

wscywabbit
03-10-2013, 01:19 PM
I understand the problem you're having, and with these bows it is better to play on the safe side of arrow weight and poundage. I didn't catch the 5fps difference in the catalog, and I don't understand that at all. The only difference between the two statistics wise is the ATA. (I don't believe that the split limbs give any performance advantage). Perhaps it is a misprint? (We all know that never happens). I also see that the Onza got a shorter brace height this go around, it used to be 7 1/4"... which would make the Onza a little slower, enough to make up for the longer ATA of the Nemesis? I don't know...

Either way, it doesn't help with your situation. I'd play with your draw stop and let off percentages to see where it gets you. You may have to err on the side of safety and deal with a slightly slower outcome. Let us know how it plays out. :)

davik
03-11-2013, 08:41 AM
I shot the Nemesis this weekend in Georgia at the ASA Pro-Am...after a couple mental errors on Saturday...and a group of scorers using micrometers to call arrows, I was sitting 39th...16 down...on Sunday, the bow performed flawlessly...I shot 4 up and jumped to a tie for 22nd (25th by 12 count) This bow shoots great! Now if I can solve the problem with speed, we'll be cooking! I'm going to try that drawstop thing and see how it plays out.Thanks

joelc
03-11-2013, 09:02 AM
But all of this could be solved by a tech that's interested in finding out

We have ONE tech. Unfortunately that doesn't leave much time for playing around with various bow setups.

droppixel
03-11-2013, 09:05 AM
We have ONE tech. Unfortunately that doesn't leave much time for playing around with various bow setups.

Martin has a crap load of techs ... us - just takes some personal initiative to test and figure things out. I'm personally planning on playing around with the Fury XT quite a bit this Spring/Summer.

davik
03-11-2013, 10:24 AM
We have ONE tech. Unfortunately that doesn't leave much time for playing around with various bow setups.

That statement was poorly worded...and it bothered me all weekend. So...can you try it?:o

joelc
03-11-2013, 10:53 AM
That statement was poorly worded...and it bothered me all weekend. So...can you try it?:o

Man...if you only knew how much I would love to get out from behind the desk and do something constructive! I'm in a small room with no windows and obnoxious, buzzing fluorescent lighting 40 hours a week.

Arrow Splitter
03-11-2013, 11:05 AM
Man...if you only knew how much I would love to get out from behind the desk and do something constructive! I'm in a small room with no windows and obnoxious, buzzing fluorescent lighting 40 hours a week.Now that's nice....OK, maybe not.:D

A.S

wscywabbit
03-11-2013, 03:09 PM
Martin has a crap load of techs ... us - just takes some personal initiative to test and figure things out. I'm personally planning on playing around with the Fury XT quite a bit this Spring/Summer.

DP is right, isn't this partly why we have this forum and we are here? ;)

davik
03-11-2013, 04:04 PM
Then send me the cams and stuff to do the research and I'll post the results (honestly) and send back the slower materials...;)

wscywabbit
03-11-2013, 04:11 PM
Then send me the cams and stuff to do the research and I'll post the results (honestly) and send back the slower materials...;)

ABSOLUTELY! Where do I sign up for product testing?! :D

Arrow Splitter
03-11-2013, 07:48 PM
ABSOLUTELY! Where do I sign up for product testing?! :D
X2 Sign up sheet please? :D:cool:

A.S

archerx7
03-12-2013, 07:37 AM
Now I dont know...a dealer called today that read this thread and said he noticed approx. 10 fps difference between the cams favoring the larger 2.0 cam. In all of my years here at Martin I have never known the larger cam to be more efficient...both the dealer and I were surprised by his findings.

So...I dont know what to tell you. But I still say the cost is not worth the increased speed.

Pretty much mirrors what I have found comparing the Hybrix 2.0 and 1.5 cams, except the difference I saw was only 6-8 fps. There was a slightly smaller gap when comparing the Nitro 2.0 to the 1.5, about 4-6 fps.
An interesting note to this is when I put a set of Hybrix 3.0 cams on an 09 AX that originally came with 2.0 cams, after a good bit of time figuring string specs trying to keep the A-A, brace and DW close to that of the 2.0's, I was able to keep the A-A/brace the same, the DL range went from 27-30 w/ the 2.0's to 27.5-30.5 w/the 3.0's and I lost 1/2 pound on the DW. The DL with the 2.0's always ran just about 1/4" long while with the 3.0's the DL is right on the money. The 3.0 cams give about an extra 2fps, with 1/2 pound less DW and a 1/4" less DL and the transition to the valley is a little smoother. Just my .02's

wscywabbit
03-12-2013, 02:07 PM
Interesting bit of info there, thanks for the testing and the input Archerx7 :)

themiddleman
03-12-2013, 04:59 PM
[QUOTE=joelc;101734]Now I dont know...a dealer called today that read this thread and said he noticed approx. 10 fps difference between the cams favoring the larger 2.0 cam. In all of my years here at Martin I have never known the larger cam to be more efficient...both the dealer and I were surprised by his findings.

I am the dealer that called Joel C. I am also Martin PRO and have been for many years. After reading davik post I decided to run a little test because I noticed that the 1.5 cam seemed to be a little slow. I had two Onza XTs on the shelf that were virtually identical with the exception one had the 2.0 and the other had the 1.5 cam. I checked the brace height and the ATA both were identical. I then set both bows draw length at 28 inches and at the exactly the same pounds.This was all done on a draw board and a high-end digital scale. Also, the draw stop was set with the same Valley. These two bows were identical in every way. I then proceeded to shoot across the chronograph. I did 10 shot averages with each bow and to my surprise the 2.0 cam was 10 feet a second faster than the 1.5 cam. I realize my test was done with only two bows and certainly aren't 100% conclusive.

davik
03-12-2013, 06:34 PM
I have been trying to convince everyone of this...the bigger cams (Nitro 3cams) are faster than the Nitro 2 cams...NOW here's the big question...IF I change the cams...do I have to change the limbs also? This is on the 2013 Nemesis with split limbs...

themiddleman
03-12-2013, 06:53 PM
I have been trying to convince everyone of this...the bigger cams (Nitro 3cams) are faster than the Nitro 2 cams...NOW here's the big question...IF I change the cams...do I have to change the limbs also? This is on the 2013 Nemesis with split limbs...

That is not what I'm saying at all the 2013 Nitro 3 and the 2012 Nitro 2 are virtually the same cams. The Nitro 3 is just a lighter updated version of the Nitro 2. What I am saying is the larger 2.0 cam is faster than the smaller 1.5 cam. this goes against all logic as you would expect the smaller lighter cams to be faster. To answer your second question everything would have to be changed cams, lambs, strings and cable if you wanted to change the cam size and don't want to lose 10 pounds of draw weight

davik
03-12-2013, 07:56 PM
I'm sorry...I misspoke (again) I meant that the new Nitro 3 cams come in two sizes 3L and 3S...I assume that means large and small...so the L cams would be faster than the small cams...and then the question...would you have to change everything still?

themiddleman
03-13-2013, 12:03 AM
davik if you want to switch from the Nitro 3s [short draw cams] to the Nitro 3L [long draw cams] and you want to keep the bows Max pounds then yes you will have to change the cams, limbs, and the string and cables. That is a big chunk of change and there is no way i would go to all that trouble and expense to gain 8 to 10 ft a second. But if that 8 to 10 feet is something you can't live without I would go another route and sell the bow that you have and purchase a new nemesis 35 with 3L cams.

good luck

davik
03-13-2013, 09:12 AM
This is my shooter bow...I didn't buy it, and I'm not sure how Martin would feel if I up and sold this one right now...I'm trying to make lemonade with what I've got. I tried the suggestion on here about the draw stop, and it has gotten my poundage down under 60, so this might work while making me feel safer about shooting the bow...we'll see. The bow sits at 58 pounds and is shooting 283-84fps with my 300 gr arrow...gonna shoot it this weekend to see if the longer drae is going to be a problem or the holding weight is going to be too much...just wish I had all this info earlier...I would have gotten a different bow.

wscywabbit
03-13-2013, 02:33 PM
I empathize for your frustration :(. Unfortunatly hindsite is 20/20. However, there is some good come from this; this thread has been very informative for everyone involved and will benefit other Martin shooters in the long run. ;)

davik
03-18-2013, 09:30 AM
I tried the draw stop thing...miserable fail...the draw length is too long when I do this, even with the drawstop pushed towards the minus side, the feel of the bow changes completely and makes it very difficult to hold steady...I guess I'll have to trade out the limbs and such to get what I want...in the meantime, I'll shoot it back on the 27.5" draw peg and have to live with it at 58-59 pounds...

Sonny Thomas
03-19-2013, 10:17 AM
Kind of lost reading all. First, I did note that draw length wasn't measured, anywhere. Draw mods setting mean nothing to me as I know they can run long and in some cases shamefully so. And this with all bow brands.
Draw length adjustment to get correct overall draw length; 1) Mods. 2) draw stop. 3) Loop length. 4) Twisting strings and cables.

My Shadowcat; Set to 27 mods. Strings and cables twisted (un) to get my 28 1/4" draw. Loop short. Edit; Forgot. I have draw stop advanced to both lessen draw length and letoff a tad.
My Pearson; 27 1/2 mods and bow string twisted to get 28 1/4". Loop slightly longer than that for the Shadowcat.
Hoyt (sold); set to 28" and dead on. Draw optimum setting (check all) is listed as 29".

I do not know of Martin having a optimum draw setting. If so and maybe even not so perhaps Javi's draw stop procedure could be used. Within his procedure draw length is checked and set before finalization. See AT, Bow tuning forum, Sticky at top.

davik
03-19-2013, 09:26 PM
I didn't measure the draw lengths until I got the nemesis, and then measured the stops from 1/2" short to 1" long. The draw stop measurements were closer in the middle of the cam than on each end...but overall, I found the DL measurements to be shorter than longer. My body preference has settled in on the 27.5" drawstops...which are about a quarter inch short, but comfortable as my draw is about 27.25 anyway I struggled with the drawstop thing, seems I cant get the stop right no matter what...you mentioned JAVI's drawstop method...he is a good friend of mine, and we have discussed alot of things, I'll have to go pick his brain on drawstops (we have worked extensively on mathews bows) for years, so there was no need to mention drawstops to me...thanks for the heads up.

Sonny Thomas
03-20-2013, 08:49 AM
How is Javi? I spoke with him for about a hour on the phone, this well before he had the stroke. Sad, father passing and stroke on top of it. The Man is phenomenal .

davik
03-20-2013, 06:00 PM
I think you have Mike Cooper mixed up with someone else...Mike didn't have a stroke as far as I know...he's still as ornery as ever, and working at mercury Tool...just talked to him this afternoon about draw stop tuning...he had alot of spicy things to say about martin Archery(most of which i cannot repeat) and their "hybrid" cam systems...he gave me some good info...I am waiting for the new limbs, etc as we speak.