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daiwateampenn
03-10-2013, 09:11 PM
bought a hinge release 4 months ago. now im in the the mid of cconverting to hinge release.

the problem i had now is the arrow grouping is mess up with hinge release and trigger release.

Am i on the wrong track? or should i proceed with hinge release and forget the trigger release. Or go back to trigger.


i feel like in middle of no way now.

advice, suggestions, opinion and past experience please share to sort my problem.

thanks...

Sonny Thomas
03-16-2013, 08:07 AM
In no particular order;

There are problems with switching to hinge some don't understand. First, learning back tension and the proper form to execute it. Basically, proper form, but the reality check of having the release arm in position so the pivot point is well present. Here, the release arm needs position so the release elbow can swing back. Okay, the elbow doesn't swing all that much, a fraction of a inch, but is enough to rotate the hand to fire the release easily. Elbow out and nothing goes right. The release is hard to fire and arrows don't go where you want them.

Trying to learn the hinge process and having the bow set for a index release sometimes does not go well. By and large something has to change and mostly it's the height of the peep. Sure, the peep might look right, but most people bend and bend you loose form.

Draw length is also a issue. I believe Barry will say the same. You will find over all draw length vastly more important when using a hinge release.

Another issue of learning the hinge is it's better to start with a low poundage bow. Once learned you then add draw weight that is suitable to you.

I have a couple of links and a write up for back tension and setting of to get started...if you wish.

bfisher
03-16-2013, 07:00 PM
Sonny got it right about me. People hardly ever take the time and effort to adjut their bows for optimum draw length. They don't know how important a 1/4" or 1/8" difference can make or just don't want to take the time to learn. When you pick up a BT release it does become more critical. 1/2" increments just won't cut it any more. You may have to twist cables and/or strings to get down to the last 1/8" that will help you trigger that hinge.

He also makes a good suggestion about lowering draw weight to learn back tension. I would also say that if possible shooting less letoff can help too. Less peak weight but till adequate holding weight to make you work your back muscles more.

I'll add that if you are intent on learning a hinge then you must set your mind to it and put away all the trigger releases. BT is something that may take a long time to figure out, maybe months or years, but the results are ofen very satisfying. You can also expect your scores (groups) to be worse for some time, but believe me, it can be rewarding in the long run.

Larry Wise authored a good book discussing back tension called "Core Archery".

daiwateampenn
03-18-2013, 06:48 AM
i made some adjustment twisting the cable.

incredibly the grouping start picking up.

i now only shoot ard 46lb. also make the trigger more sensitive.

where the shot take off much easier and faster without waiting so long.

just got my new string set from Hutch, Just put on, yet to try out.

you two are right. such a small adjustment on the draw lenght really majes the day.

Sonny Thomas
03-18-2013, 08:20 AM
If you're doing well, you may find you need to set the hinge colder, harder to go off and this do to you getting use to back tension and the hinge release. Get well acquainted with the hinge before cranking anything. What I mean is, shooting a target out in front of you on flat ground is one thing. Shooting up and down hill is another and so is one being off balance, footing wise, like shooting across a hillside. Things under control then you can add draw weight.

daiwateampenn
03-18-2013, 06:30 PM
Noted. with thanks....

i will try give myself say 2 months from now, dont touch the trigger release, and try to get it done right.

WildWilt15
03-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Picked up a Scott longhorn pro this year absolutely love it for indoor haven't played with it outside yet farthest I've shot was 25 yards and my shooting has improved greatly.

daiwateampenn
03-21-2013, 06:40 PM
Picked up a Scott longhorn pro this year absolutely love it for indoor haven't played with it outside yet farthest I've shot was 25 yards and my shooting has improved greatly.

great to hear that, at least another proven improvement, so im encouraged now... hahaha...

daiwateampenn
06-16-2014, 12:31 AM
Well, i wan to dig out the Old Thread started by myself switch from trigger release to hinge.

UPDATE as at 16th June 2014. (I stopped shooting in May 2013, due to the elbow injury (tennis elbow), and work outstation.)

after months using the hinge release, i did injured by bow arm elbow. the sudden release of the hinge release just made my arm swing to further left. One incident, my left arm elbow joint just sounded and stopped shooting nearly a year.

Well, i did not go back to trigger release nor hinge release after injuring myself. i end up shooting the Carter Thumb release.
SOmehow, compare to years back when i use trigger, the consistancy of result is not as good as i used to be.
But im picking up some improvement over weeks of shooting now.
HOWEVER, i reliaze that i like to punch the thumb trigger.
CUrrent solution for this now, is i set the trigger Feather light. Means slight touch from the thumb, the release will goes off. Seems working for the first couple of attempt. Somehow, the thumb gets harder each time. AND now, i guess i will still punch the thumb trigger, instead of a sweet and smooth squeeze.

How to overcome this?? Mental training?

I really miss the day i use trigger release with nice and consistant result.
(Last resort, i will go back to trigger release. Who knows this trigger release really meant for me... right?)

OHYA... would like to advice guys and gals. Remember to do some simple warm up before doing some serious shoot out training.
one of the reason could cause from no proper warm ups.
Coaches always say warm up, before start training, the words so true to apply on me now.
I had my right elbow injured... This time due to some serious jigging (fishing season, pass 2 months)
Although its pain, i still manage to shoot my 50lb bow but only for 4 or 5 sets and call it a day.

Sonny Thomas
06-16-2014, 09:01 AM
How old are you? You must have a pretty serious injury. I'm 65 and still pulling 55 pounds and actually quite easily. If I warm up it's to get all going in the right direction - like my first shots might be just blank baling to ensure correct form throughout. Most days it's just shooting, making that first shot. Hunting and 3D are kind of similar. Our "first" shot is the shot that counts. Okay, hunting, you usually only have one shot and it has to be perfect. In 3D you have one shot per target and up to several minutes before you shoot again. Went a National 3D once. 4 hours to shoot 20 targets and two days of it. Figure 12 minutes between shots.

Before I forget. Have you seen a doctor? Tennis elbow is a long time recovering and there are pressure/arm bands that can be worn that aid in recovering. Used properly they can "spread" the tension in the muscle and lessen pain. I have 3 arm bands. 2 have built in gel packs and 1 has some sort of hard rubber flat oval. These gel packs/hard rubber go the muscle on top the forearm right at 3 inches before the elbow. Hold your hand out flat, palm down, relaxed. Now, use your free hand to feel and make a fist and you can feel the muscle that the gel pack/hard rubber goes to. All 3 of mine are adjustable for pressure as in you can "cinch" them up. If buying a non-adjustable, find one that is tight. Wear it during the day working, remove it when relaxed or before going to bed.

And practicing and target shooting should go hand in hand. Say a indoor 20 yard event. For a 50 spot you have 4 minutes to get off 5 shots. Okay, short of a minute per shot. Said is time between shots should be at least 15 to 17 seconds. During those 15 to 17 seconds your body recovers to 100%. I forget what coach noted strength dimensioning if firing back to back; 1st shot, 100%. 2nd shot, 90%, 3rd shot, 80%, 4th shot, 65%, 5th shot 50%. And then in indoor competition you have more time to recover. You shoot, the next line shoots (4 minutes) and then all go to the target to score and pull arrows. This can amount to another 4 minutes maybe.

Index and thumb releases are "user friendly," but if not all correct and right in the world and tension of any kind can bring woe and wanting that "shot"...Oh yeah...

Being relaxed is paramount. Bypassing the regular stuff. The index finger or thumb doesn't touch the trigger until after acquiring the target. Okay, no tension and the release isn't going off accidently or prematurely. Only in the act of aiming does the index finger or thumb touch the trigger. Touch, no pressure. Now, most people have back tension going on just holding to the wall and this alone can be enough to fire the index or thumb release, you just have to wait for it, let it happen....

Back tension is a killer procedure to learn and understand. Beat myself to death trying to study and feel what was going on. For me, my back tensed sort of low, then between the shoulder blades and the tension flowed (yes, flowed) to my release shoulder and then my release arm drew back and the release fired. It was a long day and the next day seemed longer when trying to replicate it.

The thumb release. Some like a light or sensitive trigger. I don't. My release is set heavy with the supplied heavy spring. Just to play with the release, set it and fire it, you really have to apply pressure. To example; My thumb release is set so heavy I can be at full draw, remove my index finger and balance the release between my thumb and middle and ring finger and the release not fire. Add back just the thought of back tension and it fires slicker than warm butter.
This Top Shelf archer I well know has his thumb release (same brand and model as mine) set so light I can't "breath" on it and it fires.

Again, I have links and write ups by this one person on using a hinge.

daiwateampenn
06-16-2014, 07:50 PM
Im only 30.

i had my left elbow injured (from shooting bow), but now in some recovery, and feel way way better. Once in a blue moon it just struck out of no way and feels the pain. At least i can strecth the arm and elbow freely now.

My right elbow injury just recently, NOT due to archery, from some serious vertical jigging. at a point while jigging, the elbow just jammed and hurt and i have to stop jigging and fishing for the rest of the day.
Doctor said i need to ice it everyday for 15 minute, 3 times a day, and NO NO NO fishing, archery, or lifting heavy stuff with the right hand. (Tats real s**k)
recovery "it all depend on yourself" some take years to recovery, some take months to recovery.

Sonny, u are right. if the muscle is pressure with the band, i feel no pain. if the posture or any movement without using the muscle, REAL pain.

typically8
06-17-2014, 11:43 PM
Hey Sonny, drop us those links. I am enjoying this thread. I have been shooting a Scott Back Spin for almost a month. I have read Core Archery and am re-reading it. I practice with a loop of.string before and after shooting. I actually am enjoying the challenge of the BTR. I find that about 1/2 my arrows are grouping good at the center but the other 1/2 are grouping to the left by 9 inches. Torque (rt hand) or bad form? My goal is to get all 6 in the circle before I move to 25 yards (16 yds currently). It really has opemed my eyes to my form and has helped with my target panic. But it is difficult for me to find the sweet spot between wrist movement and then switching it that last 1/4" to my back muscles.

bfisher
06-18-2014, 07:25 AM
Im only 30.

i had my left elbow injured (from shooting bow), but now in some recovery, and feel way way better. Once in a blue moon it just struck out of no way and feels the pain. At least i can strecth the arm and elbow freely now.

My right elbow injury just recently, NOT due to archery, from some serious vertical jigging. at a point while jigging, the elbow just jammed and hurt and i have to stop jigging and fishing for the rest of the day.
Doctor said i need to ice it everyday for 15 minute, 3 times a day, and NO NO NO fishing, archery, or lifting heavy stuff with the right hand. (Tats real s**k)
recovery "it all depend on yourself" some take years to recovery, some take months to recovery.

Sonny, u are right. if the muscle is pressure with the band, i feel no pain. if the posture or any movement without using the muscle, REAL pain.

You didn't end up with Tennis elbow did you? I've been doing some thinking on this and come to the conclusion that Tennis elbow can be caused by too long a draw length and too much draw weight. If you look at a lot of form pics when the draw is too long on most people their drawing arm seems to form an arc with the elbow back and down, lower than the wrist, with the hand down from a bend at the wrist also. This causes the forearm muscles to do a lot of work. Coupled with a draw weight too high the forearm muscles can actually become strained.

I went thru this many years ago when I shot my bows at 28 1/4" draw. Yes, it can become quite painful. I went thru the band around the forearm, but over the years have dropped down to around 26 3/4" draw, lowered draw weight by about 15# (getting older and wiser) and the tennis elbow eventually went away. I've had no problems with it for over 20 years now.

daiwateampenn
06-18-2014, 09:29 PM
You didn't end up with Tennis elbow did you? I've been doing some thinking on this and come to the conclusion that Tennis elbow can be caused by too long a draw length and too much draw weight. If you look at a lot of form pics when the draw is too long on most people their drawing arm seems to form an arc with the elbow back and down, lower than the wrist, with the hand down from a bend at the wrist also. This causes the forearm muscles to do a lot of work. Coupled with a draw weight too high the forearm muscles can actually become strained.

I went thru this many years ago when I shot my bows at 28 1/4" draw. Yes, it can become quite painful. I went thru the band around the forearm, but over the years have dropped down to around 26 3/4" draw, lowered draw weight by about 15# (getting older and wiser) and the tennis elbow eventually went away. I've had no problems with it for over 20 years now.

Left elbow is causes by One incident a sudden shot from the hinge release, and the elbow just got hurt after the shot (maybe due to error forms). Till date. The left elbow is recovered, and dont use the hinge release anymore, cz i scare the incident repeat.
Although, there is no more pain in the left elbow. But its no longer original like it used to be.

Right elbow causes by Fishing 3 week ago. having it for the 3rd week now. still under recover. however, i still can pull and shoot the 51lb bow with no issues.

Used to shoot the Rytera Nemesis at 27.5"DL now the Alien at 27"DL --- better still.

Sonny Thomas
06-20-2014, 12:05 PM
Been off line for a couple days - still haven't got email up and running

Here's link to John Dudley's articles - several to choose from http://www.nockontv.com/article

Padgett has sent me enough on back tension to start a library.

--Quote (Originally by Padgett)---
Here it is the famous Hinge Setup Routine, it will allow you to skip months of suffering and frustration and take your hinge shooting career right into achieving new personal levels of accomplishments. The main thing right now that you must accept is that it is not a tweak your current speed setting routine, the hinge setup routine is a complete restart to hour hinge shooting so don't cheat yourself and do it completely.

You are going to Love it.

Smooth moon steps:

1. Turn the moon so slow that the hinge can't physically fire, now put the hinge in your fingers and grip it with the grip that you wish you were using. You know the perfect grip on the hinge that just feels awesome. Now since the hinge can't fire draw the bow 5 or so times using all fingers equally including the thumb peg and feel how awesome it is to draw a bow using all fingers equally. This is so important so don't under estimate or rush this step because we are going to set up the hinge so that you can draw the bow with this awesome feeling and safely fire the hinge without changing your fingers during the entire process.

2. Now draw back with all fingers and get to anchor and then just release the thumb pressure smoothly and do not try to fire the hinge just release the thumb pressure and that is it. Now let down and speed up the moon a little and repeat the process over and over for about 5 minutes and sooner or later when you come to anchor and release the thumb peg it will fire. Now we know where we are and we are right on the edge which is way to fast so now slow down the moon just a little and you should be able to come to anchor using all fingers during the draw cycle and then let go of the pressure on the thumb peg and the hinge hasn't fired but it is close.

3. Hinge setup is complete

4. Over the next week or so tweak the speed very slightly until you find the perfect speed setting that allows you to draw with all fingers and fire the hinge easily using your favorite firing engine. You don't want it too fast where you are scared of early releases and you don't want it so slow you can't rotate it enough to fire it. You want it just right.


Hinge setup using a clicker:

1. Turn the moon so slow that the hinge can't physically fire, now put the hinge in your fingers and grip it with the grip that you wish you were using. You know the perfect grip on the hinge that just feels awesome. Now since the hinge can't fire draw the bow 5 or so times using all fingers equally including the thumb peg and feel how awesome it is to draw a bow using all fingers equally. This is so important so don't underestimate or rush this step because we are going to set up the hinge so that you can draw the bow with this awesome feeling and safely fire the hinge without changing your fingers during the entire process.

2. Now draw back with all fingers and get to anchor and then just release the thumb pressure smoothly and do not try to fire the hinge just release the thumb pressure and listen for the click do not rotate or squeeze the fingers to help getting to the click, down draw and speed up the moon and repeat the process over and over and about 5 minutes you will draw back and release the thumb pressure and hear the click.

3. I personally like to release about 75% of the thumb pressure and hear the click when starting out with a new hinge and then over a few weeks I will tweak it a little slower to the point where I can release it 100% and then hear the click.



Pm me to receive my thoughts on aiming and my thoughts on good firing engines and anything else you would like to discuss, I am totally free and I can offer you a awesome start to hinge shooting so all you have to do is ask.
---End Quote---

---Quote (Originally by Padgett)---
This is my favorite and my dominant firing engine, it is proving to me to tackle many of the issues that come up in shooting such as pulling the pin off the x, freezing up, and just not being able to fire at all in a pressure moment when money is on the line.. During my shooting sessions I pick many different firing engines and I shoot with them on a regular basis and I have found that this one for me produces some awesome shooting day in and day out with or without pressure.


Firing engine:

1. Come to anchor and settle in checking bubble and peep alignment and then release the thumb pressure on the peg.

2. Now at the same time I start aiming I start squeezing my ring and middle finger and smoothly pull into the wall.

3. Arrow gone.



It really is that simple, so many people make firing a hinge so freaking complicated that it makes me want to punch them in the face and scream at them you are a idiot. Sure one of my firing engines is back tension and sure it works just fine but it is way more complicated and it produces problems with aiming that this little engine doesn't.

It is very important that you pay close attention to the fact that I said to start aiming and squeezing and pulling at the same time. I have a discussion on aiming that explains this that you need to read if you haven't explaining this and it is so important so don't take that lightly.

Pm me for my article on aiming and becoming a Spectator and it is really a nice read.
---End Quote---

---Quote (Originally by Padgett)---
Spectator shooting is something that I envisioned in August 2013. I was becoming a hinge shooter but I was still hanging on to some to the issues of being a puncher for so many years. That Month I asked myself a question "Does Reo Wilde hope or pray or force himself to hit a bullís-eye? My answer was hell no, he is the best freaking shooter in the world and he already knows he is going to get a x. He has a awesome small float and a good firing engine and he just lets them do their job and he gets to watch through the peep as it happens. I thought to myself I wish I could watch through his peep and see what his float looks like and what his firing engine feels like and just watch the arrow fly to the bullís-eye.

That is when I envisioned spectator shooting for the first time because I decided to do exactly that with my own shooting, I know that I am not Reo Wilde but why the hell can't I act like him. I study my float all the time and I know what it looks like and I have a very good float, I also have a good firing engine that fires my hinge in around 3 to 5 seconds every shot. I decided to just draw back and settle in and then just spectate through the peep and watch my float without touching my pin or influencing it, I really do just watch it do its thing and at the same time I run my engine and yes I can feel it running but I don't mess with it I just watch my float and I feel the engine running and then the arrow is on its way and I watch it hit the bullís-eye.

This Is Spectator shooting and to me it is the ultimate goal of letting go of commanding the shot in any way. Spectator shooting is very relaxing and stress free because you aren't controlling the pin and you aren't pausing and restarting the firing engine so you are really just watching through the peep.



Aiming and floating:

Aiming and float in many respects are the same thing and the way I think of aiming is that it is the downloaded app inside your brain that has the ability to re-center the pin on the bullís-eye without you doing it, your brain really will center the pin on the bullís-eye over and over again but you have to learn to let the brain do its job without you grabbing onto the pin and trying to force it to happen. Float to me is what the pin looks like as you are actually aiming. I study my float all the time in practice sessions and my float goes left to right at 20 yards inside a 5-spot X inside the X from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock. I have balanced my bow so that my float doesn't bounce up and down and it doesn't want to drop out the bottom it just moves nicely from left to right.

In fact I study my float enough to know even more about it, my float starts right when I start aiming and for 1.5 seconds left to right inside the x and then the pin comes to a dead stop in the center for about 1 second and then it floats for about 2 more seconds inside the x from left to right. After that it progressively gets worse and may or may not be inside the x and I get shaky and pathetic every single time and there is no chance of recovering.

Now why in the hell would I try and force my pin when for the first 5 seconds of my float it is inside the x, if the hinge fires during that time period I am guaranteed a x every single shot so again why in the hell would I force the pin to do anything. Secondly why in the hell if I know that my float is going to be poor after 5 seconds would I knowingly allow myself to shoot, well I don't. I simply let down and take a couple deep breaths and get my bullís-eye on the second attempt during the 5 seconds of optimal float.