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View Full Version : Cam lean on brand new alien



dzsmith
04-08-2013, 08:59 AM
If any of you remember , I was having issues getting a 2013 alien in Mississippi , well I was able to purchase one about 2 hours from my house, a retired old man, who was willing to work with me . I got the bow with large cams because their draw range is from 27.5 on up. I believe the small cam was up to 27.5 or either 28. So either way I'm right on the line. Well I ordered the large cam cuz I figured if I hated the bow and wanted to sell it, I could plus it went down to 27.5, and I shoot a 28 inch draw. It was a real pain for this guy to set it up for me, it took hours , however it's not like he works on martins all the time he's a retired man who simply maintains his whatever to sell bows . Once he got it set up I noticed the top cam leaning to the right towards the cable slide, and it leans even more when I draw it . He told me that some bows have a yoke and a y cable to to equalize the the stress on the cam, he also told me that with a short draw my cam was literally maxed out. He told me even with his 50 years of experience , he will not mess the cam, even though he's a dealer , said if I have an issue ill just have to send it in. Ill upload some pics tomorrow so yal can see the lean, but its kind of discouraging to buy a new loaded out bow with cam lean out the box. However he told me the bow will shoot fine regardless and I shouldn't have a problem, but he also told me when he buys a bow and sees those issues he doesn't order any more of them, cuz there a pain in rear. I suppose I'm just stuck with it then.... What's you guys thoughts on this????

RT1
04-08-2013, 12:07 PM
Wow....that's a bad deal there DZ...
I don't think you should have to deal with cam lean. Pretty interesting with what the old man had to say.
I like sticking with single cams myself. I've had a few twin cams and they were good, didn't experience any cam lean. (darton Pro 2000, 3000, and a couple of firecates.)

I would contact Martin and send it in. Good Luck




http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=crap+sandwich&qpvt=crap+sandwich&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=F196BC60648DDFCB28C12D806EFFA9F228B53294&selectedIndex=4

alienshooter
04-08-2013, 12:24 PM
That's messed up, idk what to say I have no cam lean at all maybe he don't know how to set it up, idk.
My dw is 69.4# (stated 70#), dl 29", I got the large cams 3L, I ordered mine @ 70#, 29" and thats how it came from Martin.
I agree with RT1 contact Joel at Martin and send it back.
Even my 2010 Alien x has no cam lean. she's 72.6# maxed out but I backed her down to 65# to improve my accuracy and save my shoulder, lol.
Have patience and get her fixed.

Alienshooter

2013 Alien
2010 AlienX

joelc
04-08-2013, 12:55 PM
I have never seen a bow without "cam lean"...unless it was an X system. Lean is the most overrated issue in Archery.

RT1
04-08-2013, 01:16 PM
Save your arms....back it down.
I went from 80lb dw a couple of years ago, down to a 70lb'er.

Now i just went down to a 60lb. bow that actually maxes out to 63lb.

Throwing thousands of baseballs a year for years...... will take it's toll...haven't had any issues yet, and don't want to find out.....and with the bows being so much faster now I don't need to crank it down.


anyways good luck with the alien, post the outcome.

dzsmith
04-08-2013, 01:26 PM
So are you telling me Joel , that the lean i am seeing is perfectly normal??? There will be pics to follow when I'm off work

joelc
04-08-2013, 01:49 PM
So are you telling me Joel , that the lean i am seeing is perfectly normal??? There will be pics to follow when I'm off work

Yes...cam "lean" is perfectly normal.

alienshooter
04-08-2013, 02:00 PM
If I have cam lean then its not much cuz I can't see it, someone please show a picture of cam lean so I can understand. :confused:

RT1
04-08-2013, 02:28 PM
hhmm...

alienshooter
04-08-2013, 02:52 PM
I know what cam lean is, its just I don't see much on my bows! I'll take pics of mine to show if I have too, "to me its not important". I have no problems with my Aliens, I just love how they shoot, period.
As Joel stated its overrated.
At a local dealer where I live I seen a guy bring a Martin bow in that looked like a recurve but had cams with the x system or yoke on both and wondered why its not utilized now?
It must not be a big issue as there are problems occurring, sorry for sounding like a newb!

2013 Alien
2010 AlienX

alienshooter
04-08-2013, 02:53 PM
I know what cam lean is, its just I don't see much on my bows! I'll take pics of mine to show if I have too, "to me its not important". I have no problems with my Aliens, I just love how they shoot, period.
As Joel stated its overrated.
At a local dealer where I live I seen a guy bring a Martin bow in that looked like a recurve but had cams with the x system or yoke on both and wondered why its not utilized now?
It must not be a big issue as there are problems occurring, sorry for sounding like a newb!

2013 Alien
2010 AlienX

I meant no problems, man......

WildWilt15
04-08-2013, 03:33 PM
I have never seen a bow without "cam lean"...unless it was an X system. Lean is the most overrated issue in Archery.

This^^ with that being said though i have experienced a bow with so much lean it was hitting the limbs and was dangerous to shoot. so it all depends on the severity but yes it will shoot just as accurate, your pins will be a little of your arrow though. and paper tuning is not a good idea if you wanna keep all your hair lol.

joelc
04-08-2013, 03:38 PM
This^^ with that being said though i have experienced a bow with so much lean it was hitting the limbs and was dangerous to shoot. so it all depends on the severity but yes it will shoot just as accurate, your pins will be a little of your arrow though. and paper tuning is not a good idea if you wanna keep all your hair lol.

Well, yes. If the lean is so severe it is causing major issues such as string wear or it is physically making contact with the limb while rotating then it is obviously an issue.

wscywabbit
04-08-2013, 09:29 PM
Hey DZ, the Nitro cams all have cam lean, and it does get worse when at full draw. Its just the nature of the beast. Like Joel and WWilt said, as long as it is not severe its no problem.

The frustrating thing I see in your post is that it seems the "old guy" you bought the bow from doesn't know or doesn't care enough to know the ins and outs of the new bows he is selling. Which is sad. If you were closer I'd help you out, cause these Nitro cams are a breeze to set up when you know what you're doing.

Hopefully everything works out bud! In the mean time, smile; YOU GOT A NEW BOW! And pics are not only requested but required ;)

alienshooter
04-08-2013, 10:14 PM
I was shooting my bows after work for a bit and looked at my cams a lot closer....I see a little lean but barely notice its there. I'm glad there are people on here to school me on martins hybrid cams. To me if its not broke don't fix it. Thanks for the info everyone.

dzsmith
04-08-2013, 10:38 PM
Well I appreciate everyone's input, I've only been in archery 3 years , the old man told me many bows have lean, but they all don't.... To me it's like saying a small gas leak isn't a problem, but with any leak they get worse over time..., had I known this I would have checked out some other bows...what I've gathered here is when you get used to something being wrong it becomes the normal to you therefore it's an on going problem

Phantonza
04-09-2013, 12:59 AM
Well I appreciate everyone's input, I've only been in archery 3 years , the old man told me many bows have lean, but they all don't.... To me it's like saying a small gas leak isn't a problem, but with any leak they get worse over time..., had I known this I would have checked out some other bows...what I've gathered here is when you get used to something being wrong it becomes the normal to you therefore it's an on going problem

Thing is, some bows actually are sensitive to cam lean, while others (such as these Martins) are not, according to my experience. It is a mystery I would like to understand better. Take Hoyt CRX or Vector, for example: it is common with those bows that you have to adjust the yokes to eliminate or adjust cam lean if you want your arrow to fly straight sideways. You just can't make it by just adjusting your arrow rest, which is the traditional method. Same thing with newer Bowtechs such as the Invasion: you have to fiddle with the yokes to make the cams tilted if you want your arrows to shoot bullet holes through paper (and your broadheads to fly to the same point with field tips). You read correctly, eliminating cam lean means imperfect arrow flight with those Bowtechs, but you still have to adjust them (and you will need a bow press to do that and have to spend a considerable amount of time for the job). This is something new, meaning that the traditional instructions of tuning compound bows no longer work with these bows. And Hoyt/Bowtech manuals even don't give any instructions for this. I can only guess how much frustration these bows have caused to people trying to tune them and not understanding the special tricks you have to do.

I have 2011 Martin Onza III which has minimal cam lean. I also own a 2012 Rytera Nemesis which has a more noticeable cam lean. Since there are no yokes in these bows, there is practically no way to adjust the angle of the cams. BUT: they both were very easy to tune to shoot bullet holes and have the same point of impact with broadheads and field tips. And this tuning was by simply adjusting the nocking point and arrow rest. You also need to check cam synchronization which was perfect out of the box with both my Onza and Nemesis. I see no reason to worry about the slight cam lean - these just shoot great.

As I said, the reason why these bows (Hoyt - Bowtech - Martin/Rytera) respond so differently to cam angle is a mystery to me. The geometry of the bows seems very comparable, so what the heck makes them behave so differently (Martin/Rytera having the most civilized behavior).

dzsmith
04-09-2013, 06:08 AM
If I didn't work so much id fiddle with it myself, but I'm gonna take it to a local bow tech dealer on town, he tuned my exile for me last year and did an excellent job. I guess I always thought cam lean was a developed issue not simply the physics of the bow. Ill say this , the bow shoots pretty dang good. Much quieter than the exile, no vibration whatsoever, no torque, draw is a little stiffer than is like, but ill get used to it.

joelc
04-09-2013, 01:16 PM
Well I appreciate everyone's input, I've only been in archery 3 years , the old man told me many bows have lean, but they all don't.... To me it's like saying a small gas leak isn't a problem, but with any leak they get worse over time..., had I known this I would have checked out some other bows...what I've gathered here is when you get used to something being wrong it becomes the normal to you therefore it's an on going problem

I dont know how to say this any more clearly...EVERY bow has cam lean and no it is not a problem. Look at the way bows are designed. You have multiple strings or cables that need to be relocated to achieve proper vane clearance. This is true of every bow that has a cable guard.

Cam lean "started" several years ago on ArcheryTalk when some brainiac decided to look a the top cam of his Bowtech bow while shooting...then another guy did it....and they posted pictures...and so did his friend, and on, and on, and on. Was there ever an issue with these bows?...no...but because one guy posted this on AT it suddenly turned into an epidemic.

alienshooter
04-09-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm glad joelc of "Martin Archery" cleared this up for me...I've been schooled!

joelc
04-09-2013, 03:40 PM
I'm glad joelc of "Martin Archery" cleared this up for me...I've been schooled!

lol. I don't know about schooled. Sadly though this whole discussion started from one thread on ArcheryTalk 6 or 7 years ago and every archer is now paying the price with misinformation and worry. In a perfect world everything would align and lean wouldn't exist...that's why we created the X system. I'd bore you guys with the reason we dont offer it any longer but maybe that's better suited for a phone call.

wscywabbit
04-09-2013, 03:43 PM
lol. I don't know about schooled. Sadly though this whole discussion started from one thread on ArcheryTalk 6 or 7 years ago and every archer is now paying the price with misinformation and worry. In a perfect world everything would align and lean wouldn't exist...that's why we created the X system. I'd bore you guys with the reason we dont offer it any longer but maybe that's better suited for a phone call.

Or maybe it would be better suited to a discussion on another thread, as I'm sure there are plenty of people that would LOVE to be bored with that info! ;)

joelc
04-09-2013, 03:54 PM
Or maybe it would be better suited to a discussion on another thread, as I'm sure there are plenty of people that would LOVE to be bored with that info! ;)

No way...I've had my words twisted too many times online to go down that road. Just yesterday a user on this very thread immediately ran to ArcheryTalk to start a similar thread based on my opinion. Just to clear the air...Martin Archery has NOTHING to do with ArcheryTalk.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-09-2013, 04:20 PM
No way...I've had my words twisted too many times online to go down that road. Just yesterday a user on this very thread immediately ran to ArcheryTalk to start a similar thread based on my opinion. Just to clear the air...Martin Archery has NOTHING to do with ArcheryTalk.

Yeah Joelc, he is known for that! I think he was banned on here once for the same thing. Guess he likes twisting words, but a lot of members over there set the record straight.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1992954


Hutch:cool:

joelc
04-09-2013, 04:23 PM
Yeah Joelc, he is known for that! I think he was banned on here once for the same thing. Guess he likes twisting words, but a lot of members over there set the record straight.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1992954


Hutch:cool:

I believe you are right

bfisher
04-09-2013, 06:21 PM
Or maybe it would be better suited to a discussion on another thread, as I'm sure there are plenty of people that would LOVE to be bored with that info! ;)



If I may add my .02 with some schooling I'd like to add that "cam lean" is really a misnomer. Unless the cam is machined incorrectly, bent, the axle holes in the limb are drilled crooked, or an axle is bent a bow doesn't have cam lean. What is going on is that the limb tips are torqued or twisted by the force applied by the use of a cable guard. This twisting gets progressively worse as a bow is drawn because greater force shifts to the cables and away from the string. That's why a bow cannot be adjusted to eliminate cam lean through the whole draw cycle.

What's more, it is more prevalent in shorter bows with larger cams. The bigger the cams are the more leverage imparted to the limbs. The shorter the bow the more acute the angle is fom the cam to the cable guard. Way back in "the good ole days" when bows were much longer (48" or more) cams had to be much smaller to achieve normal draw lengths. Smaller cams meant less leverage on the limb tips. Longer A2A bows meant less severe angle from the cam to the cable guard. That is why cam lean was never an issue. It was so slight we couldn't see it so we didn't worry about it. Out of sight--out of mind.

One thing that "cam lean" can account for is premature serving wear and I've seen this with many bows, Martin included. A little more forethought needs to taken into account by the engineers who design the cams. Make cam grooves a little wider and smooth out the edges. Pearson, one company I once shot for from 2000 to 2004 did a very good job of this. The idler wheel was wider and had a nice, almost V shape to the string groove. Of course a wider wheel or cam means a little more weight on the limbs which means a touch less speed and God Forbid we should lose any speed in this day and age. People would rather replace serving or strings more often than give up 5 fps.

Let's face it gentlmen. We don't live in a perfect world and compound bows are not perfect machines---at least not with the present technology. Besides, without something to complain about life would be very boring.

alienshooter
04-10-2013, 12:47 AM
Dang! bfisher kicking some knowledge! :cool:

Phantonza
04-10-2013, 06:12 AM
Cam lean "started" several years ago on ArcheryTalk when some brainiac decided to look a the top cam of his Bowtech bow while shooting...then another guy did it....and they posted pictures...and so did his friend, and on, and on, and on. Was there ever an issue with these bows?...no...but because one guy posted this on AT it suddenly turned into an epidemic.

I don't know which models those guys were talking about exactly, but I know for a fact that for example Bowtech Invasion CPX(L) is sensitive to the angle of the cams. They need to be slightly tilted towards the cable guard if you want good broadhead flight. Otherwise it won't happen, no matter how much you try to adjust your arrow rest sideways. Also Hoyt Carbon Element RKT and some others require yoke tuning to adjust the cam tilt.

elkslayer4x5
04-10-2013, 09:06 AM
lol. I don't know about schooled. Sadly though this whole discussion started from one thread on ArcheryTalk 6 or 7 years ago and every archer is now paying the price with misinformation and worry. In a perfect world everything would align and lean wouldn't exist...that's why we created the X system. I'd bore you guys with the reason we dont offer it any longer but maybe that's better suited for a phone call.

I'm just glad that Martin did have the X system and especially on Nitrous cams. :)

dzsmith
04-14-2013, 07:01 PM
7960here is a picture of the top cam, its not the greatest picture but you can see the lean if you look close, its worse up on draw, the angle is bad so this picture isnt a good example of the lean, but as promised i posted the pic. however the issue has been cleared up for me , im not worried about it at the moment. go check out pics of my new bow on the photo session thread

Lab Rat
04-16-2013, 07:01 PM
Take it for what it is worth, limb twist, cam lean, horizontal nock travel all affect arrow travel. My Alien Z, and Alien X shoot much better and are much easier to tune without it. I put Tilt Tamers on both of the Aliens and paper tuning is as simple as eyeballing the centershot cams through rest. Set the string directly through the sight and walk back tune. My Alien Z had such bad arrow flight that there was no way that I could paper tune it. If the Nitrous X cams came back I would invest in them. That being said, most people can tune a bow and deal with the cable slide induced side torque without any problem. I really like the idea of the CCS, but I wish that it had some adjustability to allow for less pull from the cables. The vanes that I use do not need nearly the clearance that the original CCS provided.

OnzaXX
04-25-2013, 06:18 AM
Like many have said, the effect of cam lean on a bow varies by manufacturer. There are several ways to solve or minimize the issue if you find it affecting your shot.

1. Swap bottom and top limbs, each limb, although matched in deflection, may have a different resistance to twist in each one. I have seen this work on several different manufactuerers bows. I actually did it with my Onza with Nitro cams and the limb swap reduced the top cam lean.

2. Install a tilt tamer or bent cable rod. As the bow comes to full draw, the cables are move towards the center of the bow as it is draw, thus reducing the side torque on the limbs. I installed a bent cable rod on the above mentioned bow and now the cams stay nearly true to full draw.

3. Shim the cams left or right depending on the cam lean. This is a last resort, there are numerous threads on AT on how to do this. This is one of the main fixes that Elite does with their bows to address cam lean.

Hope this helps if you are truely concerned that it is affecting the tuning of your bow.

bfisher
04-25-2013, 10:41 AM
Like many have said, the effect of cam lean on a bow varies by manufacturer. There are several ways to solve or minimize the issue if you find it affecting your shot.

1. Swap bottom and top limbs, each limb, although matched in deflection, may have a different resistance to twist in each one. I have seen this work on several different manufactuerers bows. I actually did it with my Onza with Nitro cams and the limb swap reduced the top cam lean.

2. Install a tilt tamer or bent cable rod. As the bow comes to full draw, the cables are move towards the center of the bow as it is draw, thus reducing the side torque on the limbs. I installed a bent cable rod on the above mentioned bow and now the cams stay nearly true to full draw.

3. Shim the cams left or right depending on the cam lean. This is a last resort, there are numerous threads on AT on how to do this. This is one of the main fixes that Elite does with their bows to address cam lean.

Hope this helps if you are truely concerned that it is affecting the tuning of your bow.

Glad I activated you. It looks like you are going to be a welcome asset.

dzsmith
04-25-2013, 10:53 AM
i have recently taken some more pictures of the cam lean at full draw, its much more dramatic looking, maybe its not an issue but i will post the pics so you guys can look at it. i keep hearing " oh thats typical every bow has it" got a couple of my buddies with bowtech and pse, no where in the ball park with their lean at full draw compared to mine, the bow shoots good, im having to take it to a bowtech dealer to get him to help me tune the rest, loop, and peep because the only martin dealer within 3 hours of me is just an old man, who really didnt want to sell me a bow anyway, and he couldnt even get my arrow to hit within any of the pins of my sight. its such a long drive that im not going to go back to him, ill just have to go local and work with them. id really like to learn to do all my work myself and even pick up a press one day, right now all i do myself is cut and grind feathers and fletch my own arrows.

OnzaXX
04-25-2013, 11:14 AM
The newer PSE and BOWTECH bows have yokes on their top limbs, so they have the ability to tune the yoke to elimnate the top cam lean. With the Nitro cams, there is no yoke to apply an opposing force on the top limb. My previous post are your best options to reduce the lean on the top cam.

One note, with a bent cable guard/tilt tamer setup, your cables will slide into your sight picture at full draw. It won't interfere with seeing the pins, but it does take a bit of shooting to get used to.

The good news is that the nitro cam has a wide string channel, on some bows with very narrow string channels, severe cam lean could possibly lead to derailment - not cool.

Good luck

Sonny Thomas
04-25-2013, 01:35 PM
Like Joel, Barry and others, cam lean is over blown. My Shadowcat has cam lean top and bottom and one the most accurate bows I've ever owned.
I shot Hoyts for years with their floating yokes. What cam lean you had is what you had and back then Hoyts were outstanding.

I am really surprised or just plain lost.. I thought sure someone in here had pics of his modified guide rod, bent the way he needed. Cost one heck of a lot less than the anti-torque rods on the market today, some running upwards of $70.00!

Some one is offering offset guide rods (maybe also bent) for specific bows. Cost I believe is $45.00 which I think is a bit steep. It's just plain ole black.

Personally, I think offset guide rods should be a option for all Martin bows. What, offer one size fits all with cutting to size? If advertised as such where would be the complaint?

Barry knows what I'm talking about here and I think discussed long before; The old aluminum offset guide rods. These rods flexed! Man! You could test draw and turn them so the arrow just cleared the cables at full draw and no issues of getting out of the bow cleanly.
Again, I robbed every old bow hanging in the back room of their aluminum offset guide rods. I sold the last for $20.00.

Think I'll ask Jack Iyman, a local machine shop owner, how much it would cost to market offset guide rods in different materials. Stainless steel for us that like shine ;)

Sonny Thomas
04-25-2013, 01:43 PM
If I can get some time in between cleaning up I'll take some good pics of my 2000 Hoyt UltraTec. It's a nightmare for cam lean and will shoot lights out. Just like the pics show for cam lean I used it to take 2nd in Championship flight in the IAA State Field Championship. 224 arrows shot during the competition and 2 points down from the Champion.

Sonny Thomas
04-25-2013, 05:20 PM
Knocking off for today. So got the pic of my Hoyt UltraTec, actually both cam and wheel are leaning the same direction, like this \ \ .

This UltraTec has a ata of 38 1/2". Like all long ata bows, cam lean isn't all that effected all full draw like shorter ata bows.

dzsmith
04-25-2013, 05:51 PM
heres a better pic of the cam lean at full draw
8023

Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Yikes!!





Hutch:cool:

dzsmith
04-25-2013, 06:26 PM
exactly....i dont know a lot about bows, but as a mechanic, i can tell that isnt normal looking to me

OnzaXX
04-25-2013, 07:05 PM
Wow, that is pretty excessive for cam lean.

Have you removed the cables from the cable guard to see how the cams look at full draw? I would start there since there should be no side torque on the limbs. If everything lines up true, then you may want to consider a tilt tamer.

If there is still lean, then either reduce or lengthen your draw length a 1/16 -1/8 of an inch to see if that eliminates the lean. You may be enacting a torque on the bow causing the lean.

If after fiddling with that, and you have eliminated the lean without the cable guard in place, then put the cable guard back on and see where you sit.

Let us know if that works.

Sonny Thomas
04-26-2013, 06:44 AM
Looks bad, but could it be normal? More pics of other same model bows would give a idea.

If anything I'd submit to Martin and ask.

Still, proof is in the shooting.

And being real honest here, working a small archery shop, I never look at cam lean when setting up a bow or tuning. As long as it is functional I get them to shoot. Figure going on five years at the shop and I returned to archery back in December of 1998.

Can't tell you that I ever had a bow that didn't have cam lean and all the bows I have now have cam lean. I just shoot 'em.
Bows on-hand; 2000 MagnaTec. 2000 UltraTec. 2004 SierraTec. 2009 Pearson TX4. 2011 Martin Shadowcat. 2012 Pearson MarXman.

Two and only two Pro shooters I know of have some type of anti-cam lean guided rods. Tim Gillingham once claimed the TiltTamer and another World target competitor (forget his name) had a standard offset guide rod bent to his liking.

HawgEnvy
04-26-2013, 08:12 AM
heres a better pic of the cam lean at full draw
8023

Wow! Lil lean no biggie. That looks on the verge of derailment. I wouldn't tolerate that. I can see now why you're so worried bout it.

Just a thought. Can you give us pics of you at full draw? Both sides and straight behind and same pics close up of your grip hand

dzsmith
04-26-2013, 08:12 AM
Wow, that is pretty excessive for cam lean.

Have you removed the cables from the cable guard to see how the cams look at full draw? I would start there since there should be no side torque on the limbs. If everything lines up true, then you may want to consider a tilt tamer.

If there is still lean, then either reduce or lengthen your draw length a 1/16 -1/8 of an inch to see if that eliminates the lean. You may be enacting a torque on the bow causing the lean.

If after fiddling with that, and you have eliminated the lean without the cable guard in place, then put the cable guard back on and see where you sit.

Let us know if that works. im not removing crap, the bow is brand spanking new....

dzsmith
04-26-2013, 08:15 AM
im not removing crap, the bow is brand spanking new....

sorry that sounded rude, anyway, yeah me and the ole man messed with the draw length already, didnt change crap, i have a short draw at 28 and cam is almost bottomed out, if i had gotten the smaller cam, the cam would have been maxed out rather than bottomed out.

dzsmith
04-26-2013, 08:17 AM
Wow! Lil lean no biggie. That looks on the verge of derailment. I wouldn't tolerate that. I can see now why you're so worried bout it.

yeah no crap right, the ole man said he aint touching, cant say i blame him

OnzaXX
04-26-2013, 09:15 AM
Well, I'm out of ideas unless you want to ship it off for warranty.

dzsmith
04-26-2013, 09:21 AM
they wont warranty it , because they arent convinced that anthing is wrong with it.

alienshooter
04-26-2013, 09:25 AM
Hey dz, I looked at the pic and I can see what your talking about. When I got time I'll post pics of my cams top and bottom to give you a reference. After looking at your pic I looked at my cams full draw and not, I do not have that type of angle "cam lean". I know I have been corrected about martins hybrid cams but mine does not look like that. I have the same bow and cams so all I can say is I don't know how to help you on this. I'm a noob to compound bows but I learn quick and I have been shooting for over a year now, I grew up with recurves. I'll have my chic take the pics for me and I'll post later today. Understand your frustration but I'm sure its an easy fix. I like my 2013 Martin Rytera series bow, quick not much hand shock, quiet and just looks plain cool. I got a bow mag with most top 2013 bows and the article stating the alien is the most advanced bow ever made.

alienshooter
04-26-2013, 09:30 AM
Hey dz, I looked at the pic and I can see what your talking about. When I got time I'll post pics of my cams top and bottom to give you a reference. After looking at your pic I looked at my cams full draw and not, I do not have that type of angle "cam lean". I know I have been corrected about martins hybrid cams but mine does not look like that. I have the same bow and cams so all I can say is I don't know how to help you on this. I'm a noob to compound bows but I learn quick and I have been shooting for over a year now, I grew up with recurves. I'll have my chic take the pics for me and I'll post later today. Understand your frustration but I'm sure its an easy fix. I like my 2013 Martin Rytera series bow, quick not much hand shock, quiet and just looks plain cool. I got a bow mag with most top 2013 bows and the article stating the alien is the most advanced bow ever made.
I meant by Martin!

bfisher
04-26-2013, 10:22 AM
they wont warranty it , because they arent convinced that anthing is wrong with it.

Maybe I missed it, but have you contacted Joel at the warranty dept and shown him the picture posted here? The pic shows the bow at full draw, but is that in a machine or are you holding it by hand? Are you sure you're not gripping the bow inducing hand torque? I've been shooting compounds almost 40 years now and IMO that is more lean than I'd tolerate.

urparanoidaboutyourbrand
04-26-2013, 11:11 AM
I looked at the pic as well..........it seems like it's a little too much.

I guess that is why i prefer a single cam, accutrac is my favorite so far.
I had a 2009 firecat and i didn't notice any cam lean...but it was slower than my martin with a Accutrac single cam.......????? go figure

Just my opinion.

dzsmith
04-26-2013, 08:30 PM
The lean is only the beginning of the problem, I've taken the bow to two different places and its shooting about 14 inches low at ten yards, can't use any of pins at all in the sight, the bow is 100% lined up, tunes good on paper as well, I will be giving them a call Monday they close early on Fridays , so I wasn't able to get in touch with them. But fisher , you read all of Joel's original posts , it's overrated, and not a problem according to him. Also yes that was me drawing it, no press

dzsmith
04-26-2013, 08:40 PM
The dealer I took it to today , told me the only issue he's seen like this was once Martin shipped him a bow , they couldn't figure it out and sent it back, when they did, they discovered that it had a different poundage limb on the bottom , causing it tended to launch arrows more downward. But they fixed it and sent it back

urparanoidaboutyourbrand
04-27-2013, 09:08 AM
The lean is only the beginning of the problem, I've taken the bow to two different places and its shooting about 14 inches low at ten yards, can't use any of pins at all in the sight, the bow is 100% lined up, tunes good on paper as well, I will be giving them a call Monday they close early on Fridays , so I wasn't able to get in touch with them. But fisher , you read all of Joel's original posts , it's overrated, and not a problem according to him. Also yes that was me drawing it, no press

Definately call joel.....wow..that would drive me crazy.
Hang in there...once you or martin gets it setup it will be worth it.
I'm confident that joel will get it taken care of for you.

elkslayer4x5
04-27-2013, 09:12 AM
For a ten yard shot, try using your 25 yds pin, the closer you get the higher the pin needs to be, for instance, in a field round you will have a 7 yds shot, to hit the X, I have to use my 35 yd mark. I say mark because I use a slngle pin slider. To hit the x at 2 yds, it would have to be about the 50 yd mark or more. Try it. :)

Sonny Thomas
04-27-2013, 01:35 PM
The lean is only the beginning of the problem, I've taken the bow to two different places and its shooting about 14 inches low at ten yards, can't use any of pins at all in the sight, the bow is 100% lined up, tunes good on paper as well, I will be giving them a call Monday they close early on Fridays , so I wasn't able to get in touch with them. But fisher , you read all of Joel's original posts , it's overrated, and not a problem according to him. Also yes that was me drawing it, no press


The dealer I took it to today , told me the only issue he's seen like this was once Martin shipped him a bow , they couldn't figure it out and sent it back, when they did, they discovered that it had a different poundage limb on the bottom , causing it tended to launch arrows more downward. But they fixed it and sent it back

I'm at odds with that in bold. Mis-matched limbs don't normally tune well. Most generally you'll get porpoising if say 50 pound limbs on top and 60 pound limbs on bottom or vice versa. I had one experience with this a couple of years ago. We had to back off the bottom limb bolt 4 full turns to make the bow tune. A new set of limbs corrected the problem.

urparanoidaboutyourbrand
04-29-2013, 05:51 AM
The more I look at that pic DZ......that just isn't right in my book. I would be weirded out shooting it.
I can't believe that it couldn't be sent in to martin and have their peeps look it over and make the necessay changes to make it right.
That has to be way too much cam lean......
I just don't see how that can be acceptable.
I would have to assume that you've been in contact with Joel on here...
I've had a couple of firecats.......and never had that kind of cam lean. I looked often enough and really never detected any.

dzsmith
04-29-2013, 10:05 AM
The more I look at that pic DZ......that just isn't right in my book. I would be weirded out shooting it.
I can't believe that it couldn't be sent in to martin and have their peeps look it over and make the necessay changes to make it right.
That has to be way too much cam lean......
I just don't see how that can be acceptable.
I would have to assume that you've been in contact with Joel on here...
I've had a couple of firecats.......and never had that kind of cam lean. I looked often enough and really never detected any.

let me clear something up real quick, martin has not specifically told me that i cant send it in or anything nor that they wouldnt warranty a problem, ive yet to officially get in contact with them, joel just said that cam lean is overrated and perfectly normal, obviously a bow shooting over a foot low, with lean like is abormal, but i havent told discussed this with martin on a 1 on 1 basis bet, but as per my dealer, im gonna have to send it in anyway because they dont know what else to do to raise my arrow.

urparanoidaboutyourbrand
04-29-2013, 12:58 PM
let me clear something up real quick, martin has not specifically told me that i cant send it in or anything nor that they wouldnt warranty a problem, ive yet to officially get in contact with them, joel just said that cam lean is overrated and perfectly normal, obviously a bow shooting over a foot low, with lean like is abormal, but i havent told discussed this with martin on a 1 on 1 basis bet, but as per my dealer, im gonna have to send it in anyway because they dont know what else to do to raise my arrow.

My bad...i thought you had contacted them and or have talked to someone...other than your dealer.

bfisher
04-29-2013, 03:58 PM
let me clear something up real quick, martin has not specifically told me that i cant send it in or anything nor that they wouldnt warranty a problem, ive yet to officially get in contact with them, joel just said that cam lean is overrated and perfectly normal, obviously a bow shooting over a foot low, with lean like is abormal, but i havent told discussed this with martin on a 1 on 1 basis bet, but as per my dealer, im gonna have to send it in anyway because they dont know what else to do to raise my arrow.

Something is puzzling to me and needs further explanation. What do you mean the bow is shooting a foot low @ 10 yards. Assuming the bow is tuned to some degree, the rest is mounted close to the Berger holes, the nocking point is close to 90 degrees, peep sight is somewhere in the realm of normal you should be able to sight it in.

Many people post on the internet that they can't get enough adjustment from the sight, that their pins are maxed out and the sight is maxed out (vertically) and think there is something wrong with the bow or the sight. In almost all cases they are having these issues due to a high anchor point (low arrows) which calls for a short distance between the nocking point and the peep sight. In almost every case all that needs done is for the shooter to lower his anchor, raise the peep, and maybe have to adjust the draw length of the bow to accomplish all this.

Being a short statured guy by most standards (5'8") I shoot just about 26 3/4" draw. Depending on the A2A of a bow my normal peep height is just about 6" above the nocking point. This what it is on both of my Nemisis bows (34" bow). On my Alien Z (36") it is slightly less due a more obtuse string angle. But let's use about 6" for a bench mark for comparison with yours. Shorter bow and longer draw length might make the peep higher. How does yours measure up?

Something else you might want to look at is the limb deflection cose on the under side of the limb butts to see if they match. Somebody did mention mismatched limbs so this would be a quick way to see if they are the same.

Just trying to eliminate as many variables as possible.

dzsmith
04-29-2013, 05:14 PM
, I actually did talk to the dealer about this, he said that lowering my anchor below my jaw line isn't enough in this case. I say ten yards, because i was honestly afraid to shoot it any further away than that without loosing an arrow. I called Martin today, got a return number, and it will be in the mail tomorrow. Don't know what the issue is, if I didn't work full time at a power plant maybe I could mess with it at home more, but when I can't, and the dealer can't, sending it in is my last option for the moment

bfisher
04-29-2013, 05:41 PM
, I actually did talk to the dealer about this, he said that lowering my anchor below my jaw line isn't enough in this case. I say ten yards, because i was honestly afraid to shoot it any further away than that without loosing an arrow. I called Martin today, got a return number, and it will be in the mail tomorrow. Don't know what the issue is, if I didn't work full time at a power plant maybe I could mess with it at home more, but when I can't, and the dealer can't, sending it in is my last option for the moment

Hope they figure it out. Let's hope sending it in is the best option and hopefully the last.

dzsmith
04-30-2013, 06:20 AM
Ill keep u guys posted

Sonny Thomas
04-30-2013, 07:33 AM
Yes, I would like to know the outcome. You say the bow tunes, but shoots low. That is weird. It's just like information is missing.

dzsmith
04-30-2013, 10:25 AM
i dont know what info you are looking for, the arrow with the rest at full draw centered with the berger holes, the peep is perfect with my eye, my sight is adjusted as low as possible, the shot on paper is slightly high and right, but no big deal. the only issue im seeing is with my short draw lenght the cam is bottomed out which is probably making the lean worse if i had to guess, but there really isnt anything that can mechanically be done on that end. one thing i failed to think about was , what if it was my arrow,i was only shooting one arrow through it, the arrow appears to be in perfect condition, and shot this arrow many times throught the exile with no issues.

Sonny Thomas
04-30-2013, 03:33 PM
My way of setting up using my Magnatec and MarXman, but consider the ata is 37 3/4" and 37 1/2";
All bow specs checked with limbs maxed out.

If single cam - look for smooth flow off the cam.

Cat cams and don't what you call them; synced/timed as per Martin manual.

Bow set in bow vice and leveled RS string level - arrow rest installed and leveled.

Trial and error - brass nock used, just crimped so it can still be moved to aid setting arrow rest.

Trial and error - arrow rest height set so center of shaft is centered to berger hole.

A bit of fine setting with either - tying string tied nock for nocking point or top knot of loop is nocking point.

Final look - arrow centered to berger hole and nocking point 1/16" to 1/8" high. My Shadowcat and MarXman show right at 1/16" high nock.

Center shot - eye ball bow string to groove of top wheel or top cam. Arrow nocked, move rest so arrow aligns to aligned string/wheel or cam groove. Trial and error to get best possible alignment - release aid and a tiny bit of center of shaft to the inside is acceptable.

Sight installed - gang sight set pins center to housing. With rest fully up and or locked fully up, measure from top of arrow shaft to pin used for 20 yards. Move gang so 20 yard pin is approx 3 3/8" above arrow shaft.
Yes, 3 3/8". Now figure it takes X number of yards for the arrow to climb to the wanted 20 yard height.
So tradjectory path begins at the bow, zero, climbs to X height and then begins it's descent.
For my MarXman, 284 fps, Grid mark 29.06 is 28 yards. Grid mark 29.00 is also 7 yards.


Peep - set center of peep from top of arrow nock. Approx 6 1/4" up for the MagnaTec and 6" up for the MarXman. Shorter ata bows would be higher. Okay, my anchor establishes peep height.

Now, centering the 20 yards pin, not gang, the vast majority of times the bows is close for 20 yards and several times I've been dead on for 20 yards. Remember, this is a set up. I use 20 yards. I don't give a hoot what the pin will used for desired distance. Me, I'm setting up bow. When the owner comes, then finer setting will be done.

I finish with Walk Back tuning; Using 20 yard pin for both, zero side to side on a leveled verticle line, move back to 30 yards and check for right or left impact. If left move rest tiny bit right. If right move rest tiny bit left. And I start over. When arrow is dead on for verticle at 10 feet and 30 yards I'm done other than fine tuning sight pins for wanted distances of the owner.

Back off limbs - Using a lead pencil I mark the limb bolt head (head, not washer) back to the limb and mark off center of limb bolt - like "b," but verticle line a bit inside - my rational; see for alignment better.
Don't lose track of number turns backing off, if 2 for the top, then 2 for the bottom.

I have a ton of pictures of cams showing flow of the bow string off different cams.