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droppixel
04-08-2013, 03:38 PM
I feel like there is a thread for this somewhere, but honestly didn't want to dig it up and starting clean never hurts ;) Anywho ... Posted a couple times about considering an arrow swap for the coming season. I tend to go through almost a dozen a year it seems and I'm almost to that point with my last batch of GT Velocity (300). I found that my Bengal tuned better with the .300 spine vs the .400 and so I'm planning on sticking with the .350-.300 range. I was able to diddle with a trial of OT2 shaft selector and showed optimal spine was .340s - so that got me to looking around at what arrows would fit the bill and possibly allow me to shave some weight and pick up a little more juice.

Now I know there are guys out there that say you HAVE to have a 400+ gr arrow to shoot deer and I just laugh at it. With my ranges that I know I shoot, I'm plenty comfortable with a "lighter" arrow. I put 2 solid pass throughs at 20 and 30 yards with the Cheetah shooting 60# and a GT Velocity 400 that probably weight a touch more than 330gr. With the Bengal, I'm pretty confident I got a bit more push behind them arrows to get the job done.

I'm thinking I might just pick up a half dozen of whatever new arrow I pick up just to see how well they shoot and if I like them so I'm not out more money. If all is well, grab 6 more. So here is where I've come to in my search ... what does everyone think - if they've had experience with any of the shafts or would recommend based on what you've seen/heard/etc.

(All finished weights based on 27.5" shaft, might be able to go shorter, and corresponding components with 100gr points/bh. Need to do some more fine tuning with the Bengal in draw length etc once I get my elusive draw board built. All will be within 5gr per pound draw weight. Current arrow weight approx 385gr)

Victory VForce HV 350 - 6.8gpi - finished weight approx 325gr
Gold Tip Velocity 340 - 8.2gpi - approx 363gr
Black Eagle Arrows Carnivores - 7.5gpi - 346gr
Bloodsport (Muddy) HT2 - 7.9gpi - 353gr

From what I've seen so far, the BEA are going to be the most pricey (+$20-$25/half dozen) of the bunch. The others pretty much run about the same +/- $5/half-dozen. If I'm missing another arrow with similar spec, post it up and lets have us a chat ;)

bob cooly
04-08-2013, 04:25 PM
Hey Drop, You like the speed so you should stay with what works for you. I just finished putting some 4" shieldcut feathers on a 400 Goldtip XT Hunter 29" with a 125 grn. muzzy phantom. Shooting these out of my Bengal 2012 60# and I am totally impressed. Arrow weight is 396 grns. I also shot the same setup with a 340 Easton Axis and except for the arrow weighing 425 grns they also were great. Cost wise it's hard to beat the Cableas Extreme Hunter for $54. I have some of those left over and they will certainly drill your deer as far as you want to shoot. I hope to draw a cow Elk tag so the heavy arrows will fit that bill nicely. I thought arhery was supposed to be a simple sport :cool: soooo the collecting of stuff continues :confused: Have fun with whatever you get.
PS the heavy arrow really do quiet down your bow.

Sonny Thomas
04-08-2013, 04:41 PM
I've looked at several arrows charts and the 400 spine is given time and again. Even at 62 pounds and 29" of draw the 400 spine arrow is given. So shortened 27.5" 400 spine would be even more ideal.

For me arrow brand is just a personal perference. I've had Victories, Carbon Express, Harvest Time and Muddy Outdoors updated Harvest Time arrows. They all get the job done.

macflash
04-08-2013, 05:41 PM
Ah arrows,
yeah " need more input."
I have a box of carbon express 50/60's I'm working with right now. they seem to do okay. It doesn't give me a spine.
The Firecat ( remember it's an oldie, 1996) I'm 28.5 draw at 63 lbs ( working the arm for 70 still) I have 125 field tips on to get practice,( it's what I had) and will be using NAP thunderheads for a broadhead, they (C.E.) claim the shaft is 9.9 grain per inch, arrows are 30" =297gr. + insert, fletch, and nock, around 320 ish,( man now I need a grain scale) FOC is happy at 10% ish.
what shaft would you guys suggest? my need to get list is climbing high, and income is staying the same LOL, my wife is already contemplating a bow and/or arrow enima, so bang for the buck is top of the list
HELP

Tosi
04-08-2013, 07:21 PM
Drop, understand you shoot a light arrows. Look at Victory V3 and or VAPS. I shot them for years and still love them. I know shoot Easton Axis 340 at 29" @ 420g with Zeon Fusions'. I like the weight as I also hunt Elk here in N. AZ and don't wont change out as deer and Elk are just a few weeks apart. The pro to that heavy arrow is penetartion when hitting bone and or shoulder and if a bad spot,,, hip. I blew thought a Elk shoulder last year with my Fire Cat 400 a and hit heart @ 68 yards. Broadhead slick trick mag 100g. Hope your shopping go's well my freind.

droppixel
04-08-2013, 07:49 PM
Indeed - I'm no dummy when it comes to the proper needs for the situation. If I were shooting anything larger than whitetail - I'd be going heavy. Right now my primary shooting is whitetail and under / 3D. I'm confident I can get away with the "lighter" arrows should I take that direction. At the same time, I do recognize that my 380-385gr arrow is still considered "light" by some :p With that, I'd be completely comfortable sticking with what I currently have, knowing that I've had success with it, but I'm one to have "tinkeritis" ;)

For the 400 spine, I originally had some XT Hunter 5575 cut to about the same length 28" and had nothing but wonky arrow flight no matter what I did in trying to tune the bow with them. Once I went to the stiffer spine, it was like night and day difference. I shoot Velocity 400s with my Cheetah, because of the rest setup I have on it NAP Apache, I'm able to get away with a much shorter arrow at about 26.5" - that stiffens those up pretty well I think. 400 spine seem to be the "go-to" for the majority of set-ups according to manufacturer spec. I believe going with the .350 is going to give you the best fit, I'd rather be a touch "over-spined" than under.

Sonny Thomas
04-08-2013, 08:10 PM
Ah arrows,
yeah " need more input."
I have a box of carbon express 50/60's I'm working with right now. they seem to do okay. It doesn't give me a spine.
The Firecat ( remember it's an oldie, 1996) I'm 28.5 draw at 63 lbs ( working the arm for 70 still) I have 125 field tips on to get practice,( it's what I had) and will be using NAP thunderheads for a broadhead, they (C.E.) claim the shaft is 9.9 grain per inch, arrows are 30" =297gr. + insert, fletch, and nock, around 320 ish,( man now I need a grain scale) FOC is happy at 10% ish.
what shaft would you guys suggest? my need to get list is climbing high, and income is staying the same LOL, my wife is already contemplating a bow and/or arrow enima, so bang for the buck is top of the list
HELP

Something of the Rebel line. I'd have the arrow cut 1 inch past contact point of the rest at full draw. Would help the spine. Inserts, I'd go 100 grs points.

Took my scale out the truck, but The Box is a inexpensive electronic scale. New, I paid $20.00. The lower end model, you need a flat surface. What I do is shim the Box so the arrow stays in the middle of the pad. 500 grs is the most it can weigh. Anything over 500 and you can burn up the Box. Size is incredible, like your billfold...or at least mine with uptine ad cards....wish it was due to folding money ;)

typically8
04-09-2013, 12:41 AM
Enima huh? Archery can become a 4 letter word in my house. I had a heck of a time w/ arrows when setting up my Onza. It likes a stiffer arrow. Its all trial and a lot of arrow, I mean error.

Sonny Thomas
04-09-2013, 08:26 AM
Enima huh? Archery can become a 4 letter word in my house. I had a heck of a time w/ arrows when setting up my Onza. It likes a stiffer arrow. Its all trial and a lot of arrow, I mean error.

Set up a few Onza IIIs, piece of cake. The owner, Martin staff shooter, had a crazy bunch of Carbon Express arrows, maximas, them soda straw arrows (Nanos of .177" dia.) and them CX logs. We shot everything through his and all worked great. He finally picked the Nanos and what the H__ for is beyond me. I know I shot with him later at this 3D and his hypodermic arrows were getting through the off side of the target. And this on brand new targets.

Of note; The Nanos have been brought up as to maybe limiting or even banning them in 3D. So dang thin that they get to the off side of the target, when switching to the offside target it's already broken down and shoots out faster than the first side shot.

bob cooly
04-09-2013, 12:19 PM
Sonny I've shot a ton of critters with a rifle and think too much emphasis is placed on (passthroughs) The arrow stuck in the vitals that acts like a meat grinder while the animal is moving will cause more damage than a clean passthrough, I believe. So I agree with you about some of the NANO's extreme penitration, esp. for deer size critters. That being said I chose the 340 Axis for my slim chance of drawing a Tule cow elk tag. When I was assasinating coyotes, I found the .17 Remington and the 204 Ruger that seldom exited tend to make them DRT more so than even a .223. I know it's apples and tomatoes but give us some insight. I see Ted Nugents drop just as dead with a 50lb bow as any.

Sonny Thomas
04-09-2013, 12:44 PM
Bob, I think it depends on the deer and the broadhead. Seen deer run forever shot through the heart, cleared a 40 acre field before it stopped. And then shot this doe in her bed. She jumped up and went right back down in her bed. I also shot a doe straight through and she jumped off about 10 yards and stood there wondering what went on. Yep, stood right there and bled to death.

Broadhead of good cutting quality for big hole in and out is hard to beat, lets the hot blood out and the cold air in, so to speak.

Yotes, about as weird as animals come. Dropped this dog right in his tracks with a .22 rifle. And then drilled this dog yote twice with a .30/006 and he ran forever. Looked like one of the horror movies, blood everywhere. We couldn't follow on his trail in the tall grass because there was so much blood. Me and my wife tracked that sucker for over 2 miles and never did find him.

droppixel
04-09-2013, 12:52 PM
I think there has been too much emphasis place on large diameter cut BH in recent times. If you don't have the juice to push those suckers through, you ain't gonna see a clean pass. My Dad thought Rage was the greatest because of the hole they make, but never had a pass through and lost the biggest buck of his life with one as well. I talked him into shooting the T3s last year and he smoked 2 straight through. He shoots a much older bow than I and I know it doesn't have the juice that we have with our more up-to-date models. I believe a solid 1 1/4 - 1 1/2" is plenty to get the job done and will take care of business with a well placed shot.

wscywabbit
04-09-2013, 03:37 PM
hey DP, I use the Easton Axis Nano 340's for my Onza, total arrow weight is about 385 ish with feathers. They are a little heavier than your other choices but I love them. On the flip side, I recently set up my nephew with a 60# Silencer, and he's shooting Gold Tip Velocihunters with 100 gr tips and blazer vanes, they're smoking at about 360 grains...

As for arrow choice and hunting, I agree with you, a lighter arrow will get the job done on most anything in the continental US. Even the Nuge gets passthroughs with his 50# bows and well placed shots.

droppixel
04-09-2013, 05:47 PM
hey DP, I use the Easton Axis Nano 340's for my Onza, total arrow weight is about 385 ish with feathers. They are a little heavier than your other choices but I love them. On the flip side, I recently set up my nephew with a 60# Silencer, and he's shooting Gold Tip Velocihunters with 100 gr tips and blazer vanes, they're smoking at about 360 grains...

As for arrow choice and hunting, I agree with you, a lighter arrow will get the job done on most anything in the continental US. Even the Nuge gets passthroughs with his 50# bows and well placed shots.

The Velocity shafts are great, I shot them for the past 2 seasons (400s w/ Cheetah, 300s w/ Bengal). Gold Tip makes phenomenal arrows, they are indeed strong. I've had many arrow slaps shooting ground and they are still just fine. Had a few break on me, but for the most part they are super strong from my experience.

I might pick up a half dozen of the Victory and see how well they shoot - think picking up a little more zing out of the bow will make a difference in 3D and Hunting. Worst case senario, I don't like them and I just keep my slider marks for my current shaft and go back to them. One of the nice things about archery is we have a ridonculous amount of options/choices to make.

bfisher
04-09-2013, 06:43 PM
I think there has been too much emphasis place on large diameter cut BH in recent times. If you don't have the juice to push those suckers through, you ain't gonna see a clean pass. My Dad thought Rage was the greatest because of the hole they make, but never had a pass through and lost the biggest buck of his life with one as well. I talked him into shooting the T3s last year and he smoked 2 straight through. He shoots a much older bow than I and I know it doesn't have the juice that we have with our more up-to-date models. I believe a solid 1 1/4 - 1 1/2" is plenty to get the job done and will take care of business with a well placed shot.

I couldn't agree more. Contrary to what is thought, especially by younger guys, it doesn't take a big hole or a ton of KE to pass through deer. My last three deer were shot with ACC 3-18 shafts and InnerLoc 75 grain heads ( 1 1/16" cut) for a total weight of 330 grains; shot from a bow at 237 fps. Do the math---39 ft.lbs of energy. All pass throughs and the nicest buck of the bunch went a total of 30 yards and stood there looking around wondering what happened till he just fell over and died. 1 1/16" ain't very big, but it's more than big enough.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-09-2013, 07:35 PM
I couldn't agree more. Contrary to what is thought, especially by younger guys, it doesn't take a big hole or a ton of KE to pass through deer. My last three deer were shot with ACC 3-18 shafts and InnerLoc 75 grain heads ( 1 1/16" cut) for a total weight of 330 grains; shot from a bow at 237 fps. Do the math---39 ft.lbs of energy. All pass throughs and the nicest buck of the bunch went a total of 30 yards and stood there looking around wondering what happened till he just fell over and died. 1 1/16" ain't very big, but it's more than big enough.
Really good info here!!!! People need to know that bigger is not better, faster is not as accurate.




Hutch:cool:

Ehunter
04-09-2013, 08:32 PM
I have used the Victory VAP's for a few years, and love the penetration they get, but I'm switching over to the V Force now. Cheaper arrows, and more durable. I shoot a .300 and a .350 spine out of the 65 & 70# bows, and a .350 or 400 out of the 60#'ers. The VAP's have a half insert that keeps bending. They told me not to shoot a bag target, but they still bend when I shoot into a Rinehart. Not a problem one with the V Force, or the V Force HV's. Both great arrows. As far as broadheads, I shoot 1 1/8th inch cut. Plenty big enough to do the job well, and good flight/penetration. Just got a new Ramcat broadhead to try out. 1 3/16th cut. Looks impressive, but haven't shot it yet.

On a side note. I think a razor sharp broadhead is FAR more important that a big broadhead.

typically8
04-09-2013, 11:39 PM
Ok, now for they young guy's 2 cents.
I read some where that smaller animal should be shot using a smaller caliber bullet. I think it has to do w/ speed vs kinetic energy vs bullet expansion. I shot 3 coyotes at 50-100 yds w/ my 30-06 hitting all of them but could not find any.
Second point w/ out starting a Rage war. I shot 4 deer w/ Rage, had pass through and nothing ran more then 35 yds. I trust them enough for nephew to shoot his first doe w/ a 40lb bow. He had a pass through and short trail as well. Back in the 80s, I remember bigger was better. I still have some of those Rocky Mt heads. Accuracy and a sharp arrow is all it takes (Maybe a lil luck too).

droppixel
04-10-2013, 08:45 AM
The thing that my Dad had with his Rage experience was simply monster holes that would lead to dead deer, just never one that had passed through. My point with the large cut is, if you don't have the mustard to push them, I wouldn't shoot them. Rage makes the 40ke now, don't know a lot about them, but they have at least recognized that having a BH specifically geared to bows that have a lower KE output is a nice thing to offer. I know plenty of people that shoot 1 1/8" cuts and that was what I shot my first few with.

Ehunter is right Sharp trumps Size everyday.

elkslayer4x5
04-10-2013, 09:16 AM
Sonny I've shot a ton of critters with a rifle and think too much emphasis is placed on (passthroughs) The arrow stuck in the vitals that acts like a meat grinder while the animal is moving will cause more damage than a clean passthrough, I believe. So I agree with you about some of the NANO's extreme penitration, esp. for deer size critters. That being said I chose the 340 Axis for my slim chance of drawing a Tule cow elk tag. When I was assasinating coyotes, I found the .17 Remington and the 204 Ruger that seldom exited tend to make them DRT more so than even a .223. I know it's apples and tomatoes but give us some insight. I see Ted Nugents drop just as dead with a 50lb bow as any.

Bob, I think that with those two calibers, it more a case of fragible bullets and hyper velocity than it is their smaller diameters.

Durandal
04-11-2013, 08:48 AM
The victory HV arrows have been nothing but wonderful for me. I use the 400 spine, out of my scepter at 54.3 # they are just perfect. I also tend to have my arrows cut longer my DL is 29.5 and I have them cut at 31". I figured that would give me a bit of leeway if I needed to stiffen them up a bit I can always shorten them afterwards. Haven't had the need to do that though, the spine seems perfect for my setup.

My only complaint would be that given their lightness, they aren't as forgiving when you miss the target. They will break where my excel's used to survive. Still won't change brands until I have to!

macflash
04-20-2013, 06:18 PM
Got to shoot at 30 yards today ... not liking what I'm seein' :mad:, I have about a 4-6 inch drift to the left, with the Carbon express Devils Wrath arrows, the box says for 50-60 pound bow so I'm guessing that a stiffer spine is needed. threw an xx75 aluminum game getter in the mix and it dropped right in where the pin was.
The Carbons have about a 2 degree right helical on them so I would expect right drift if anything. would to weak of a spine cause it to drift left or right??? :confused:
So I'm going to just use these for plinking, and building my arms and shoulder, what i don't know is for a bow that is shooting 65-70 pounds which gold tip shaft do I want to get and should I get the ones from wally world with the blazers on them, it's 65 bucks for 12, and have inserts

bfisher
04-20-2013, 08:32 PM
At 65-70# and 31" long I'd say with certainty that a 400 shaft is underspined. I'd go with a 300 spine without a doubt. If you like a 22 diameter like the aluminum then Gold Tip has an Ultralite 22 series that is a 300 spine and comes in at 7.3 gpi to help maximize speed. They also make a standard size carbon called the Ultralite 300 or the Velocity 300 at 8.5 gpi. If money is an issue then try the Ultralite Entrada.

TEN RING
04-20-2013, 09:03 PM
At 65-70# and 31" long I'd say with certainty that a 400 shaft is underspined. I'd go with a 300 spine without a doubt. If you like a 22 diameter like the aluminum then Gold Tip has an Ultralite 22 series that is a 300 spine and comes in at 7.3 gpi to help maximize speed. They also make a standard size carbon called the Ultralite 300 or the Velocity 300 at 8.5 gpi. If money is an issue then try the Ultralite Entrada.

I agree you are under spined 300's will put you where you need to be

macflash
04-20-2013, 09:22 PM
Nice thanks guys,
am I right in saying the spine, 300 vs 400 is how much said shaft will bend with a certain pressure, therefore 300 is a stiffer spine because it doesn't bend as far with said weight ?
If I can get a few more atta boys from work I'll be able to get the gold tips, from Cabelas but I'll look into the ultralights
Mac

TEN RING
04-20-2013, 09:30 PM
Nice thanks guys,
am I right in saying the spine, 300 vs 400 is how much said shaft will bend with a certain pressure, therefore 300 is a stiffer spine because it doesn't bend as far with said weight ?
If I can get a few more atta boys from work I'll be able to get the gold tips, from Cabelas but I'll look into the ultralights
Mac

Yes 300 is stiffer than a 400 shaft, hope you get some were I work it takes 99 at a boy to get a rise but take one oh s?*t to wipe them out

macflash
04-20-2013, 09:34 PM
Yes 300 is stiffer than a 400 shaft, hope you get some were I work it takes 99 at a boy to get a rise but take one oh s?*t to wipe them out

LOL, yeah been there went from hero to zero in 2.6 micro seconds on the 747 last year. down in 737 land it's a little easier life,... most days
and someone elses oh s?*t is usually what i end up fixing so it doesn't take long for the atta boys to add up