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otisT
04-14-2013, 08:43 PM
Hi all and thanks bfisher for getting me into the club. Kind of like getting into an exclusive fraternity; thought someone had blackballed me for a week or so! Anyway, after about twenty years away from shooting a bow, and some minor heart problems; minor, I guess, I'm still alive, decided to get back into it as a personal hobby. So, knowing I'm a little weaker and a lot older now, and beings my last bow was an eighty pound pull, thought I'd best drop back from that quite a bit, so bought a seventy pound pull PSE Vendetta. Well, I can't pull that sucker anywhere near comfortably dropped back to sixty pounds! Then, a year or so later, come up with the bright idea of getting a highly adjustable, less expensive bow; PSE, of course, so I could start low and build back up, and their Rally would fit my bill so far as weight and length of pull adjustment; I have about a 32 inch draw but always shot an inch or so short of that for all the reasons a lot of people do/should. So, while searching for the right deal on a PSE Rally, I came across the Martin Fury XT cam. Then, while trying to decide between the two, PSE or Martin, happened upon your forum, which I've been lurking and studying on for a month or so now. Seems a nice lot, so I went with a 2012 model Martin Cougar with the Fury XT cam, which I've had now for a week or so, shot it a couple dozen times. Sure seems sweet shooting, quiet and fast; but that's compared to bows twenty, thirty years ago! Sure is a short little guy! I went with the Martin Cougar model because a friend of mine had a Martin Cougar 25 or 30 years ago and it was quite nice. They've changed some; only about half as long and did you notice the riser is no longer made of wood?!

Anyway, because this may be the only thread I ever start here, I would like to ask some questions and, if I may, make some observations. You good folks won't have to put up with my ramblings much. I fear I have no 'expertise' to offer; more of a rank newbie, if anything.

Questions, in no logical order;

Need to replace the cable slide?

Bow says it maxed out at 74 pounds; lowered to the minus 10 peg and the limb bolts backed out six turns, may i assume it could even go farther as there are several threads still showing below the barrel nuts? May I assume Martin's warning to not back the bolts out more than five turns does not apply here? (I don't need to go farther, but just wonder) And, ABOUT how much weight does each turn lower the poundage? (I'll measure that, for sure, if and when I ever find my bow scale again)

The Fury XT is a 'true' single cam?

Martin's 'seeming' problems with limbs was before the 'power tough' limbs on this bow?

Useing my old under the jaw anchor point, my peep is seven and a half inchs above the center of my nock; need to change the way I anchor? (otisT, aka Harseface)

Set on the minus 10 peg, at the longest (I Think) draw length, I have the draw stop set all the way to the plus side. Safe? Read somewhere on here about how cams can be over rotated. Sure leaves a short 'valley'. The draw is just ever so little short of perfect; I understand I'll gain a half inch or so draw length when I get 'er back on the standard peg, which should be about prefect, btw. Fear I'll still have the short valley. I do wonder what the let off is with such a short valley.

This bow, most Martins, can be backed off enough with the limb bolts to be taken apart?

May I assume dead flat 0 (center shot and nock setting) is where to start in tuning this bow?

IF I have anymore questions, I won't bore you with ramblings! But, I'd still like to offer some observations;

Bowmaster, love it, will NOT press PSE Vendetta, even with limb adapters (though they are 'completely field serviceable'!). Don't cut a string out in the brush, folks! Short hundred mile round trip to a bow shop for me anyway; I was/will be my bow mechanic. Part of the fun, imho. Bowmaster works great on Cougar. Which reminds me; Martin's 'bow manual' is about worthless, and they don't have any information on line, that I can find. Like, well, all the questions I've asked above; how does one know what the heck let off their bow is set at, ect. Their manual is so lacking, I'd compare it to PSE's!
Put on 'Whisker biscuit' rest; don't hate it as bad as I thought I would, so far.
Martin's 2X4 quiver looks neat! Ain't installed it yet, probably won't for a long time, but it's mounting is trick and will, I'm sure, work well. They might ought to mention in ads and such, it's only for Martins.
Hammerhead strings seem very good; peep, with rubber, hasn't moved that I can tell and was put in before bow was shot at all; anybody else remember back when strings had to have stretch or they'd blow your bow up?

One more rambling, then I'll quit boring you good folks; when I check in on your Martin forums, there are generally from 30 to 50 people. I think a lot, like me, are looking for answers but are shy about asking the questions. To them; if you have a question, join up and ask it; one or a dozen. In a month, I've pretty well concluded these good folks are more than willing to share knowledge; they're anxious to do so and are proud of their Martin addiction. "What are you smokng?!"....... "Ahhh, ahh, Martin... really smokes!"

Thanks for your time, all;
o

Sonny Thomas
04-14-2013, 10:58 PM
First, welcome aboard. You weren't black balled, just on a waiting list.

Read your Post. Whew! Glad you're not long winded like some of us :p

The 2012 Cougar with Fury XT cam is a single cam bow. Top wheel just look funny the way it's designed.

Yep, Martin went that new fangled aluminum. See them pretty wood riser bows once in a while. Yes, and short. When I returned to archery I thought they were over grown sling shots. Shortest bow I owned back then was a Fred Bear 60" recurve.

Listed as 74 pounds? Well, not unheard of. I haven't played with the Fury XT cam, but literature says a range of 35 pounds. So we need some expert to explain how the cam is to be set.

Of the letoff on most Martins back off the draw stop and fully draw so the cable lays flat in the module groove. You then set the draw stop to the limb and presto, 80% let off. Moving the draw towards the limb (tiny increments please) lessens letoff, shortens the valley (makes it want to take off fast) and slightly shortens draw length.

Actually, you can change strings on Martins just by backing off the limb bolts. What you do is look through the barrel nut while backing off the limbs bolts. Back off ONLY until the limb bolt allows through hole is completely open. Don't back off farther and don't draw to fire! Here, the limbs are so relaxed you can use very little hand pressure to remove the strings - Please use care. I got picture somewhere in my messed up collection where I used a cut off carbon arrow - drew the bow string enough to rotate the cam so I could stick the cut off carbon arrow through the cam so when letting down the arrow held the cam and the bow string just goes completely limp.

Present cable slide should be fine.

So far the Power Tough limbs are holding up. I've about 15,000 shots on the Power Tough limbs of my 2011 Shadowcat.

Seems you have a Pete Sheply anchor for the index release. Never cared for it myself. I anchor my first knuckle in the hollow behind my jaw and align my thumb length wise under my jaw. Sort of keeps my thumb from touching the barrel of index release.

Lots of us have answers. We got answers for everything. However, correct answer cost more ;)

Ain't nobody smoking them wacky tobacacky cigarettes, but sure seems like something gots some...Well, gots lots of people in here following them little kitties around ;)

HawgEnvy
04-15-2013, 03:15 PM
welcome to the forum. since ST answered all your questions, I really have nothing to add since I haven't had any experience w the FXT cam. However,if you want to upgrade your cable slide,go with the Saunders Hyperglide. It's a pretty good little unit. And don't worry about not having any expertise. Just feel free to comment and harass people as you see fit. I'm sure you'll have more questions, eventually.

wscywabbit
04-15-2013, 04:47 PM
Welcome to the forum! You'll love that Fury cam, it very versitile. Each peg drops peak weight about 10# and lenthens the draw by about 1/2", just FYI. Other than that, I think Sonny had everything else covered :)

TEN RING
04-15-2013, 05:11 PM
nothing else to say but welcome to the forum,it only took a month for my activation

otisT
04-15-2013, 05:42 PM
Thanks for the welcome, guys.
Sonny; I thought I warned you! "Got coffee? Bored, raining out? Read ramblings...."
wscywabbit; I HOPE you mean dropping down a peg SHORTENS the draw length 1/2 inch. My understanding.
My one point was that you can do a search for 'Fury XT' here or on Martin's site, or on the internet in general, and you'll come up with nothing. Martin's customers are left to learn how to set them and such on their own. 'Support your local dealer'; being in the neighboring town for a doctor's apt. anyway, went to my 'local dealer' for arrows a couple weeks ago; in the three or four dozen shots I've taken with Cougar, so far have only had four inserts come out. That's with just having three arrows up at a time. A Martin dealer, come to find out, but definitely not a Martin pusher. ICS hunter 340's, btw; think I'm over spined for the 45-50 pounds I'm pulling? lol

anyway, thanks for the welcome and the information. o

wscywabbit
04-15-2013, 05:59 PM
LOL yes, sorry, I meant shorter. Got in a hurry I guess ;)

typically8
04-15-2013, 10:40 PM
Welcome to the forum otis T. I prefer to anchor at the cornor of my mouth as this is how I was taught. Use what ever is comfortable and will give you consistancy. I tried to change to a different slide but it was to big.and wanted the cables out of the way of the fletching. So far, i like my new fury cam so I cant comment to much. Remember, there are do dumb questions. Shoot straight!!

elkslayer4x5
04-16-2013, 08:52 AM
Thanks for the welcome, guys.
Sonny; I thought I warned you! "Got coffee? Bored, raining out? Read ramblings...."
wscywabbit; I HOPE you mean dropping down a peg SHORTENS the draw length 1/2 inch. My understanding.
My one point was that you can do a search for 'Fury XT' here or on Martin's site, or on the internet in general, and you'll come up with nothing. Martin's customers are left to learn how to set them and such on their own. 'Support your local dealer'; being in the neighboring town for a doctor's apt. anyway, went to my 'local dealer' for arrows a couple weeks ago; in the three or four dozen shots I've taken with Cougar, so far have only had four inserts come out. That's with just having three arrows up at a time. A Martin dealer, come to find out, but definitely not a Martin pusher. ICS hunter 340's, btw; think I'm over spined for the 45-50 pounds I'm pulling? lol

anyway, thanks for the welcome and the information. o

Welome to the site! Post away, thats one of the ways we all learn here, and we're glad to help. Did you recover the inserts? Did the "local dealer" assemble the arrows? I prefer to use ferrule cement on my inserts, but others use super glue.

bfisher
04-16-2013, 10:12 AM
Welcome to the forums, Otis. I'll try to expand on a couple things if I may. I have no experience with the XT cam, but past experience is what I go on.

Your bow will reach 70# (74 if that's what the factory says). It's not uncommon for a bow to draw more than it's intended maximum so don't concern yourself with that. With the string connected to the standard peg it reaches maximum draw weight and draw length. Moving the string to the -10 post drops the weight by 10 lbs, but in doing so also reduces the draw length by an inch and another inch and 10# by going to the -20 peg. This also assumes you have the draw length module and draw stop set to the longest setting. This is how I understand it. Pulling things out of my pea brain it's much the same as wheely bows from decades ago where there were often 3 slots for the steel cables to sit in. Now I could be wrong so if I am I hope someone will clarify.

As far as letoff goes they are rated for 80% at all the maximum settings mentioned above. Reducing the draw length using the -10 and -20 pins will usually reduce letoff but only by a few percent. There are several uses for the draw stop. One of them being to be able to fine tune the draw length. The other to be able to adjust for letoff. Big balancing act here. I prefer to set the module and draw top for my preferred drawlength. Then if I want to reduce letoff I leave the draw stop set for the length I want and move the module to the next longer setting. As you understand another important reason for the draw stop is to keep from over rotating the cam. If it's set too long you could possibly draw too far and lock the bow into a full draw position---not good.

The reason for such a high peep location is because of your long draw and the shortness of the bow. It creates a very sharp string angle. If you're one of those people who have been accustomed to touching your nose to the string you're going to have a tough time finding anchor points because of the string angle. Personally I would question your draw length. Many people draw longer than what they should. Lack of experience or proper guidance are usually the reason. To shoot a properly fitted 32" draw you would have to be about 6'8" tall or have awfully long arms. Not knowing you this is pure speculation, but I'm just throwing this in for educational purposes.

Reason you're losing inserts? Possibly the dealer didn't clean the inside of the shaft after cutting the arrows. The carbon dust has to be removed for any glue to bond to the arrow surface. I used 91% alcohol (not rubbing alcohol) and a Q-Tip. For glue I've always used tried and true 2 part 24 hour epoxy. Call me old school, but I've used various super glues with various results. Some dry and get too brittle. Yes, your 340 arrows might be on the stiff side at the weight you are shooting, but as you turn the weight up they should work better. I wold say somewhere up to 60# or a smidge more. You get closer to 65# or 70# you're going to need a 300 spine, but that's for the future.

Anyway, take all the info you've gotten here and use what you will. If you have more questions please, I implore you, ask away. We on this forum are here to help others and are rarely bored. That's what we're here for. It's what we do.

otisT
04-16-2013, 08:46 PM
Thanks again for the welcome and the replies, folks.

Yeah, may have to learn a new anchor; or not. We'll see how it shakes out.

elkslayer4x5, if I'd installed the inserts, I'd not admit it! lol.. No biggie, things happen... I'll figure out what best to use and how, and do my own from now on. Recovered one and have the others stored in my target. lol

bfisher, thanks again for getting me in the forum. Actually, I'm six foot twelve and a half inches tall... {:>) ACTUALLY used to be just short of six four. Miracle of Miracles!! Forty years later I'm now six one. But, using the finger tip to tip starting measurement, my wingspan is still just a tad shy of 80 inches. (insert gorilla joke here) Adjusted to and always shot around a 31 inch draw; saves on the forearm, avoids light coats without strapping them out of the way, ect. ect. I shouldn't be long getting back on the standard peg; gain a half inch to an inch of draw should work out just right. Now, you see, with the minus ten peg maxed out length of pull wise, anything short of the stop being to the maximum plus (+) setting and there is NO valley. And, yes, I had thought I should go with a longer ATA bow, but then it wouldn't have been a Martin, and you folks sold me on getting a Martin! Plus, this Cougar is as much a training devise that won't bore me to death as it is a bow, for now; it's fun for both.
The ICS 340s, I know, will be the correct spine as I bring the draw weight up over time, why I chose them. I had a few 2219s left from years ago, but feared they might shoot plumb through the ton straw bales I have as a backstop and kill a horse or something on the other side.

o

wscywabbit
04-16-2013, 08:53 PM
:) hey, just an FYI, with your GORILLA sized draw length (couldn't resist :p) you need to make sure that at full draw you aren't going past the module and pulling the cable into the axle of the cam. If you do it will shorten the life of the serving there, so its best to just be sure!

otisT
04-18-2013, 06:13 PM
wscywabbit, were it not so ! lol I checked that and the mod looks fine, I'll keep an eye on the serving for a while.

btw, I pulled the rest the inserts out with a pair of needle nose pliers. For the life of me, I can't see any glue of any kind; wouldn't you think there would be some little residue, some left in the little notches? Feels clean to me. Also I THINK I see black residue from cutting the arrows on the little red rubbery thingies. Oh, well.

Beings I wanna try and post a pic anyway, hehehe, I'm going to try and show what I mean re the inserts, and then a pic of three 'trick' items that 'newbie' me thinks are nice; Bowmaster, just because they've always been great. D loop pliers, because once I tied my first ever D loop with them, I had NO doubt, as hard as they pulled, that the knot would hold. Never a worry to you who are used to them, I reckon, but your first one, one might worry about holding. And, TRU Ball 'draw check tool' I believe they call it. It's perhaps worth having just for checking sights or whatever without any fear of dry firing. For me, it's even more useful. I pull my bow many times over sitting in my home office than actually shooting arrows, trying to build back a little strength. 79867985

wscywabbit
04-18-2013, 08:00 PM
yep, I don't see a drop of glue on those lol. It would definitely explain why they came out so easy! Nice thing is, its an easy fix :)

Sonny Thomas
04-18-2013, 08:58 PM
Thanks for the welcome, guys.
Sonny; I thought I warned you! "Got coffee? Bored, raining out? Read ramblings...."


Otis, I was being for real. Though I am quite bashful, shy and laid back I've been known to go on writing sprees of length. ;)

otisT
04-18-2013, 10:48 PM
Sonny;
LOL my title was 'semi serious' as I knew I rambled but kinda thought, may as well cover everything at once. And, in the month or so I've been hangin' around, I've read some of your lengthy posts... The major difference I see in yours and mine is that yours generally say something! lol Lots of helpful information and advise, which I think everyone appreciates. I know I do. Wish I had more to offer these good folks, but I fear I'll simply be an ol' guy hobbyist, never again to be too serious nor too good at it. But, I'll still enjoy it. You'll have to cover for my lack of knowledge! lol

Now, the inserts; I took a little Dremel bit that would fit and BARELY - BY HAND - roughed them up inside for an inch or so, cleaned inside the arrows and the inserts with acetone then put 'em together with something called 'Insert Iron', 'wait a couple, three days'; should work 'eh?

Remember now, back when I was last bow hunting; carbon arrows were poison, releases where rare, round wheels and fifty percent let off were the norm, and a 'D loop' was assumed to have something to do with a busty lady's bra. So, it's all new to me! And I thank you and the others for the help, and the good humor.

o

Sonny Thomas
04-19-2013, 07:39 AM
OMG! Iron Insert! I got some of that to use for and give a review. I'd rather use tar. I forget the drying time, but outrageous.

Any of the quick set glues would be far better. Fast Set, the original Super Glue (is like gooey, not the runny stuff), Bohning Quantum XT, and Pine Ridge are some to consider.

Inside scuffing of the shaft usually isn't necessary. Lots of people use acetone, but I much perfer denatured alcohol. If and when such inside roughing is required I use a copper rifle bore brush - by hand.

Hey! Old ways of doing things still take place and refreshers of these is welcome.

Yes, years back people thought carbon would do something to the meat and wouldn't eat game animals shot with them. Of course, real dumb, but presisted for a time.

Yes, releases were rare. Never saw one until 1999! Now I have some of the releases with no triggers and no pulling posts. Know what you're doing and they are pretty safe... Do remember my first time with a hinge. Found myself on my knees and wondering how I got there.

Letoff. Lord! My first compound bow was a Pearson and to draw and hold was like hanging on for dear life!

D-loop and bra size? A bit of wishful thinking? ;)

bfisher
04-19-2013, 09:44 AM
I jumped on the compound band wagon fairly early in their development. 1974 to be exact. Wooden riser, wood/glass laminated limbs, plastic dual track wheels, steel cables, and a whopping 20% letoff. I remember buying a Pearson ProStaff 4000 in 1979 which peaked at 61# and left me holding 38#. Wore me out on a field course. Speeds approaching 200 fps and it was heaven. Been shooting a release since 2005 ( many different ones and types). BT is still the best once you learn how to use one.

Real carbon arrows didn't hit the scene till the late 80's or early 90's and these were pultruded shafts, meaning all the fibers ran one way, length wise. It was these that were not recommended by Easton for hunting use. They were very strong but if they did break they splintered length wise and with some 30 million fibers making up a shaft some could break off and get into the meat. Not good for the intestines. Of course Beman was the arrow of choice and the warning about splintering was advertised by Easton who didn't have a carbon arrow yet. Then Easton came out with theirs and all was good. Some years down the road Easton bought Beman and that's where we're at today. Shafts aren't pultruded any more and when they break there is not splintering to speak of so that fear is gone.

I don't know what those red things are at the back of the inserts. Never seen them before. No sense hashing over this issue. You have enough info and should settle this problem well enough.

Sonny Thomas
04-19-2013, 11:59 AM
Barry, that's them new fangled inserts, like Beman Vibrake inserts, vibration dampening system.
Sims technology thingies. Best thing since sliced bread. Fantasic. Can't shoot good without them.

Mmmm? Somebody give them a test hop and I might read the review. Not buy, just might read the review ;)

bfisher
04-19-2013, 03:49 PM
Barry, that's them new fangled inserts, like Beman Vibrake inserts, vibration dampening system.
Sims technology thingies. Best thing since sliced bread. Fantasic. Can't shoot good without them.

Mmmm? Somebody give them a test hop and I might read the review. Not buy, just might read the review ;)

Best thing since sliced bread? Yeah, right. Anybody who would believe this hasn't been around arrows very long.

Sonny Thomas
04-19-2013, 05:33 PM
Barry, that's them new fangled inserts, like Beman Vibrake inserts, vibration dampening system.
Sims technology thingies. Best thing since sliced bread. Fantasic. Can't shoot good without them.

Mmmm? Somebody give them a test hop and I might read the review. Not buy, just might read the review ;)


Best thing since sliced bread? Yeah, right. Anybody who would believe this hasn't been around arrows very long.

Well, I was trying to get someone to give a good review. I mean, my Gizmo/Gaget book is almost full and don't want to start another just for one giz...I mean, not for just one product :rolleyes:

otisT
04-19-2013, 08:32 PM
I like them because they came with the arrows; dislike them because they left with the target points. Beman evidently likes them because they want about three times the money for them as other inserts. I'm sure something else will fit!

bfisher; I didn't mean for thread to drift away from the 'technical'. Sorry, my fault. Won't happen again.

macflash
04-19-2013, 09:18 PM
Welcome aboard Otis!!
Glad I'm not long winded, ... okay have a sit...:p
These folks here took me from completely Ignorant to just a little stupid in very little time, hoping to make it to might actually know somethin' soon.
not sure if it still stands with the newer bows, but draw length on Martins usually run a little short, Example I measure 29" using finger to finger but bow sits just over 28", glad i read that before I bought my modules. with my release, my knuckle of my string arm pointer finger is just below my right earlobe and "locked" right behind my jaw. This gives me a set " Anchor point". When i draw this puts the string just touching my nose, in line with my eye (looking through the peep) and draws a line to right behind the corner of my mouth.
Hutch i believe posted a great section somewhere in here with pictures of a proper stance, arm position, and all. it really helped me set my draw length, and anchor points,Example if your shoulders are not square, and your leaning back you need a little shorter draw, and to short you will be on the draw stop and fighting to stay steady, bow arm will start achin' ETC.
once your square, and have a good "feel", even at max you should be able to hold it in the valley without to much trouble.
Not sure of your set up but most can be shot turned out 5 turns, not recommended for extended shooting, usually 3 turns max, but with the fury's pounds and draw length are adjusted on the cams ...?? I say this with a huge question mark, as my poundage is set by turning out the limb bolts, at about 3#'s per full turn. On your bow also not sure, but i can get my cables to drop and string off by going out 12-13 turns and still be in the block.
Sonny,Barry sorry if I said the same same,you guys did
Mac

peace
04-20-2013, 03:43 AM
I know about being 6'4'' forty years ago and now I am six two. I have a wing span of 77" so I don't feel so bad when you say yours is just shy of 80". :cool:
Well welcome to the forum and hope the insert gluing works out for you, looks to me like you are going to be educating yourself on how to do most of your own bow maintenance and tuning as that shop is lousy.

We are big on DIY so you should fit right in here.

bfisher
04-20-2013, 08:36 AM
Otis, and others, no need to apologize for getting off subject, I'm as guilty of it as the rest of the guys. Not so much to change the subject, but just add info that maybe can be used. We're having a decent conversation here so unless somebody gets offended (PM me) I see nothing wrong with it. I think it actually lets us get to now each other a bit better. Carry on gentlemen.

otisT
04-21-2013, 10:27 PM
macflash, Peace; more kind welcoming's, Thanks. This is the only forum, posting of anything to the net in any form, I've ever participated in, because of the general tone and the obvious 'niceness' of the folks here (forum is new and different, probably why I got carried away, sorry!). I don't 'Face Book' or any of that kind of stuff; I may be the last person alive without a 'big shot' phone. But, I'm glad I started studying up on Martins! You know, I have gleaned good information off that Archery Talk site too, but have no compunction to be any part of it, other than reading up on some things. Some there seem a mite needlessly 'snarky'... lol

macflash; I know I read in a couple places that Martins tended to run a little LONG in DL, at least for the 2012 year I was interested in; a selling point to me. Are we basically saying the same thing?

Quote; "Example I measure 29" using finger to finger but bow sits just over 28"

I THINK so. Your Martin is saying 28" but is, perhaps, closer to 29" DL? As for the bolt turns and such, I gotta find my dog gone bow scale and answer these questions for myself!! I know I had it just the other daa ahh well, a couple years ago. Has to be here some place! My anchor point; and, man, this would be hard to change, is; well, the 'web' of my thumb and fore finger, trigger finger, kind of circles my jaw bone. Long draw and short bow, I'll never have nose touching the string, but gripping ahol't my jawbone like that is, I think, pretty solid and consistent.

Peace; I actually think it may be a good bow shop. I got there just as two young guys were opening up, maybe one was new or something; I'm not upset AND now feel less bad about not at least trying to buy bow semi 'locally' - forty miles or so one way, even if I'd known they were a Martin dealer. You know, in this day of internet pricing and big box stores, and even Wallymart selling archery items, I think companies need to be more accepting and accommodating of DIYers. Some of us are almost forced into it, whether or not we enjoy it.

OH OH!! And, Peace, I got to thinking on the hype before the long ago Clay, Liston fights. I looked it up on the internet (if it's on the internet, it HAS to be true) and it's exactly the opposite of what I thought I remembered; Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay was 6'3" and had a 'reach'/wingspan of 80 inches.... Sonny Liston was 6 foot and a quarter inch tall, or 6'1" depending on source, and had a 'reach' of 84"! Ol' Sonny would reach out and touch too! Reach advantage didn't seem to help much against Ali. Watched those fights on free network TV, too... lol

Sonny (Thomas, not Liston!) is right again; the La Brea tar pits dry up faster than Insert Iron. What I think is funny; I seem to find humor in most things, is that the package says Insert Iron is 'reversible'; I get this picture in my minds eye of putting my arrows in the crock pot on Thursday so I can shorten them a half inch on Monday. BUT, Sonny, I always have good sound and solid reasoning behind things I do! I used Insert Iron because I had it, must have got it two and some years ago when I got my other bow. My gun stuff is behind a ton of junk in my shop, thus the Dremel bit instead of brass brush; Acetone because I had it handy and no alcohol. lol Now you understand how I think; you may not want to participate in one of my 'Emergency Make Doo Tooth Removal' process'... unless you really like Wild Turkey, that is, and have absolutely no fear of shingling hatchets.

P.S. Yeah, Hutch, like Sonny and others, posts a lot of good information, as well as making artistic bow strings. LOL I read ALL the way back on his strings for sale thread, just to see the pretty work. 'Back when' cables were actually cables, steel cables with double tear drops, it was pretty inexpensive to have a spare string handy, which I always did. Now, I'll have to talk myself into it! Sorry, bfisher, I did it again!

o

Sonny Thomas
04-22-2013, 08:17 AM
Otis,
I understand making do with what you have on hand. Been, there, done that.

It has been my findings that Martins run long for draw length. The ones I've dealt with have been at least a inch longer than the mod setting and my Shadowcats far more. Like my 2011 Shadowcat is set to 27" by the mods and I have the bow string twisted up to get down to 28 1/4".

Basically, if you have gorilla arms you can move the mods to a shorter setting so overall draw length fits you. For us shorter arm guys....it's the pits. I think Barry would agree....

Inovative are people. Inovative, is this a correct word...or spelling? So I have shooter friend who works at another bow shop. Basically, just use a colored pencil or White Out. Using a tape measure, measure from the string at right angle to the deepest part of the grip. Move straight up and draw a line on the shelf wall of the riser parallel to the string. Draw bow with nocked arrow and have some one mark the arrow at the line. Add 1 3/4" to the mark and measure bottom of nock to mark - draw length. Hope I a put this correctly.

And then I have two survey steel tape measures and they are long enough, 50 foot and 100 foot ;) These have steel loop to attach to whatever. So I have a "J" hook in the ceiling. Loop of steel tape on the "J" hook first and then hang the bow on the "J" hook at the nocking point. The spool of these tape measures have a lock. I let out enough tape to get my measurement and lock the spool - weight keeps pressure on the tape. I then draw the bow down, keeping it level. I eyeball the deepest part of the grip to the tape measure and have the measurement and add the 1 3/4" for AMO draw length.

Draw length, draw weight thing. I have this fairly sharp string maker who also makes strings for off the wall bows, like in Frankenstein type bows. So he finishes my Frankenstein bow and it looks great, but the draw weight is more than I want and the draw length a tad long. I sent the bow with the mod I had on hand - Cam sytem being that of a Pearson Z7. I get the correct mod and it's pretty close. I call Roger and he gives; "Twist up the bow string 8 twists and see what you have." I did so. Perfect! Right at 62 pounds and dead on, hard into the wall 28" of draw. ??? Thought I had a pic of it in here. It's a Kodiak Outdoors Bow Logic 36. The red bow.

Barry can tell you, a bit of cable adjustment and (sometimes) some real nasty twisting the bow string can really shorten draw length. Somewhere in my messed hoard of pictures I have a bow that has the cams grossly advanced to make draw length come out right. Shocking it is. And this bow works! Will see if I can find it.....Me find it! Mmmmm? Looks like maybe a Martin bow....

bfisher
04-22-2013, 11:09 AM
Sonny's last sentence is referring to the blue bow with Nitrous cams. He has it short strung and the cams are grossly under rotated, probably by about 3" from what I'm seeing. And he says the bow still works.

I can say that this isn't always a good long term arrangement, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Yeah, it throws the cam(s) out of orientation. It changes the a2a and brace height of the bow ( the specs). It also changes the weight range of the limbs and reduces letoff, but the bow is still shootable. In some cases, if you get an older bow that you can't find parts you are left with no other option except maybe get rid of the thing and get something that fits. Not everybody has the money to do so. So untwisting cables and short stringing can get him going until he can afford something better.

And as far as specs go? I don't worry about factory specs. Even with my newer bows I twist the string, adding about 10 or 15 twists just to smooth out the draw cycle and/or to tweak the draw length (usually both). After I have the bow set to my liking and shooting well, then I measure the specs and let them be what they may. Most times factory specs are where the bow performs at it's highest efficiency. It doesn't mean it can't be shot with the specs different.

People get too caught up in worrying about such things. They'd be better off spending as much or more time on bettering their shooting form. I can tell you this from experience. Nothing in archery is more important than good consistent form. Part of that equation is tweaking draw length to the Nth degree.

Sonny Thomas
04-22-2013, 12:00 PM
Sonny's last sentence is referring to the blue bow with Nitrous cams. He has it short strung and the cams are grossly under rotated, probably by about 3" from what I'm seeing. And he says the bow still works.

I believe nuts&bolts did the short stringing of the blue bow and for a specific reason that evades me at this time (like I forgot).



People get too caught up in worrying about such things. They'd be better off spending as much or more time on bettering their shooting form. I can tell you this from experience. Nothing in archery is more important than good consistent form. Part of that equation is tweaking draw length to the Nth degree.

Again, Barry is correct. Form is parmount. I once penned a Post; "Bow Tuning is Secondary" The Post sent people on the war path. And then a couple of....? Notables? Sounds good. A couple of notables PMed and Emailed me, first ribbing me that I was a true "Instigator." ;) But then also told of me being correct. And basically, a reasonably tuned bow in the hands of person using good form will make the bow look like it is tuned to perfection.

Spiker
04-22-2013, 01:06 PM
The blue bow is a Razor X and this is Alans reply to 'why the weird cam orientation":

"Ahhhh.

You noticed.

Another part of the stabilization experiment,
was to experiment with the following things:

a) how much side stabilizer weight to get the front stabilizer follow through reaction to be dead straight forward (no up or down)

b) how much total weight for the bow system could I handle, in order to hold steady better

c) how could I keep the draw weight low (between 45 to 50 lbs) AND get near 50% let off percentage

Answer to Experiment (c).....short string the bow ON PURPOSE.

Those are Martin Nitrous Cams (size B),
so I put the draw length module at maximum,
about 2-inches longer than my preferred draw length...
and
built a custom string extra short,
and then built cables to match (to get to my preferred draw weight).

So,
I have the best of both worlds.

Solid Wall. Comfy draw weight (about 46 lbs). Nearly 24 lbs of holding weight.

Draw is VERY SMOOTH.
Lots of speed and nearly zero valley.

Makes for a very crisp release, when shooting a BT hinge.


The higher your holding weight,
the more the mass of your bow system should be.

High Holding Weight and medium-ish draw weight
is the ideal system for a target bow.

So,
once you find the amount of side stabilizer weight
that balances out your front stab weight...

then,
you can add weight to both ends
or
you can take off weight on both ends

to match your holding weight.

Your scores will tell you if your bow system is too heavy.
On Monday this week, I just shot a Double Indoor FITA (240 arrows).
Took quite a while, but the long training session....

showed me what about my form works, and what about my form does not,
and
the x-count for the last 30 arrows of the 240,
also tells me a huge amount about my current stabilization system.

I have a new system coming in,
and will repeat the experiment. "

otisT
04-22-2013, 03:41 PM
It's not raining here; it's snowing!

Sonny, you have some neat 'stuff'! I found your thread on 'Bow Tuning is Secondary'; could not agree more, for what my extreme amateur status is worth. I think this relates;

My first bow; a, I thought, beautiful wooden risered Browning, I decide to put some new fangled 'gizmos' on; a peep and sights! Went out to sight 'er in and, man, had I ever got things lined up close to right! At twenty yards, my groups had opened up some, up to about full pie plate size, but these fancy new accuracy enhancing devices were gonna work, soon as I fine tuned them some and got used to them. I'd move the site a bit and.... the group would still be the same size and in the same place. Move the sight some more, the group would still be the same size and in the same place. Move it some more, still the same result. It took me quite a while, you've probably noticed I'm not overly bright, but I finally realized I was still instinctively shooting; I'd get the peep, sight and spot on target all lined up and, as I released my fingers, my mind would force my form to compensate to hit the target. My arm kept wanting to move, I could feel it 'fighting' me, even after I figured out what I was doing. Once I knew what was going on, I could still feel my left hand trying to jerk the bow onto target. I actually had the sight about a foot and a half low left! Took real hard concentration to ever get sight sighted in. I've caught myself doing the same thing with my Cougar.

Another thing I think reinforces Sonny's Thread; while still instinctively shooting, I would have three, four inch groups at twenty yards. I'd have three, four inch groups at thirty yards; the same at forty; perhaps five inches, but basically the same groups at all distances. Of course, beyond forty yards was well out of bow range, so never shot farther. {:>)

The point being, a synchronized mind and body can overcome less than perfect tuning, as is Sonny's point, as well as conscious attempts at changing it. The human mind is quite the computerized aiming devise.

Hi, Spiker!

o

Sonny Thomas
04-22-2013, 05:16 PM
Otis, thank you. And you sort of followed my very steps. I went to them fancy sights and sure enough the paid off. Yep, I found I could miss more accurately ;)

Spiker, thanks for the re-hash. I spoke with nuts&bolts about twisting strings and cables some time back and we both agreed in principal - do what you gotta do.

Getting kinda perturbed with this one bow, I knew twist this and twist that and went on a rampage... I speced out this bow and began untwisting cables and twisting the bow string torturously. Not only did I get this bow down to my draw length. I made the bow exactly to the mod settings. I took right at 2" out of the draw while maintaining bow specs, ata, bh, and draw weight. Now, I checked arrow speed before the horrendous twisting and after I was done it still had the same velocity.

The bow string was actually trying roll up on it's self, like knot. I didn't care. As soon as I got some draw weight on the string it straightened and with the limbs maxed out it look normal except the spirals of the string sure were close.

So twisting up a bow string isn't all that good. So I backed off to get what I thought better. The next time I run into this, bow being factory, I'll send to M&R Bow Strings and have string made that make it right. By the way, M&R charged me about $100 for the new set of strings, this being labor to find cable and string measurment, cost of strings, testing (make sure it didn't atomic bomb) and shipping the bow back to me.