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nshepro
04-20-2013, 05:56 PM
I've done a lot of shooting for fun, but last night, after reading the thread about the indoor world championship, I decided to set a goal and participate in next years Las Vegas tournament. Problem is, now that I have that in my head, my grouping went haywire. Self-preservation says it was wet fletching because it was rain/snowing out today, but realistic answer probably is the pressure and excitement I just added to my shooting.

Any advice how to deal with this or how to get out of this funk? I'm shooting a wooden recurve from 20 yards at a paper target.

Any advice on making it to the tournament would be helpful too. i.e. release technique, qualifying, mental preparedness.

One more thing, how can I tell I have proper form without someone telling me?

DeepRiverBowman
04-20-2013, 07:19 PM
Off the cuff, if just thinking about the LV Open ruins your shot, you've got a lot of work to do and probably should set your sights a little lower until you get some tournament experience. Along those lines, to prepare for a big tournament shoot as often as you can in smaller ones so as to learn the culture and etiquette of tournament shooters and shooting.

If you want to do this by yourself film your training sessions and practice form in front of a mirror. Many archers shoot too many 'live shots' (shots at a bulls-eye) and only really get good at counting their score. Devote many more practice sessions to work on individual elements of form. Blind bale/blank bale shooting perfects your release and follow-through. Draw and aim w/o releasing. Shoot more arrows than in a tournament to develop stamina. Don't practice during a tournament and don't try new things. Don't score during practice. Practice during practice. Keep shooting when you are shooting well and fall back to simpler practice methods when you are not.

mike

TEN RING
04-20-2013, 09:23 PM
The best thing I could add is keep it fun,once you put that self inflicted perssure on your self you can self destruck you used set goals it's one step at a time and you will be much happier with your self and a better shooter been there done that, I put so much perssure on my self at my last world championships I massed up the first day the second day with nothing to lose or win just shot for fun I shoot an almost perfect around, keep it fun

nshepro
04-20-2013, 09:47 PM
I appreciate every bit you guys just told me. I have shot in tournaments a few times when I was in my teens. I suppose the Las Vegas open is probably to high to aim for, but it won't stop me from aiming for it. I like the idea of a shooting at a blank bail, I will definitely incorporate that into my haphazard training sessions.

I read an article about finger placement and keeping the string arm lower in order to use the back muscles more. That really helped and it was very forgiving if I had a bad release.

It's pretty incredible that this forum allows me to interact with so much experience and I won't take the advice lightly. Thank you.

elkslayer4x5
04-21-2013, 08:03 AM
Normally I'd tell you to join a club and start shooting field rounds. A field round is 28 targets 4 arrows each from 7 yds to 80 yds, a total of 112 shots. Thats where I started, with just a barebow 45# recurve. Whew! Was I beat by the time I finished! That will build up you stamina, and improve your overall accuracy. But since you're in Alaska, that may be a bit difficult for you. Follow the advice the other guys gave you and you will be more prepared.

bfisher
04-21-2013, 11:06 AM
If you want some good reading about the proper way and muscles to use in shooting there's nothing better than Core Archery by Larry Wise.

TEN RING
04-21-2013, 11:54 AM
I would shoot as many local shoot was you can to gauge your self, If you had the chance to go to vegas I would still go just for the experance it will go along way in helping you grow, but keep it fun

DeepRiverBowman
04-23-2013, 07:32 AM
Along with the Larry Wise book another great resource for infirmation on tournament shooting would be "Masters of the Bare Bow," a 4-volume DVD set with several experts and various techniques for shooting trad style in tournament and hunting situations. You can find it at 3Rivers Archery and possibly Amazon or eBay.

mike

nshepro
04-23-2013, 06:58 PM
Awesome guys. I was messing around with a few new technique ideas (3 fingers below v split, push and pull to draw, and hand grip) some seemed to work for the first shot, then back to haywire. I ended up breaking an arrow and losing another. I will check out the book and the DVD set. Thanks.

Sonny Thomas
04-23-2013, 10:36 PM
Finger experiementing is okay, but you need direction or difinition of... Being a bunch of things out to try, settling on one for Indoor, as you've indicated, is paramount.

I no longer shoot a recurve, but as a kid I sure flung some arrows. And the archery,gun shop was about a block from school - yep, lunch time and waiting for the bus there I'd be. We didn't have laws about distance of gun stores from schools back then.

I used the standard three finger split, one above, two under. Aiming was alot instinctive, but then Index, middle and ring finger in the corner of the mouth gave other options of impact. Not done, then there is center of the chin. Oh yes, more options with using index, middle and ring finger.

Of course, all of the above can be carried over to those shooting instinctive with a compound bow. And I did such about a year or so ago. I had this pretty little Pearson Target bow of old (custom order). I was shooting it indoors at 3D targets at the shop and here comes this older feller. The bow was of ease to draw (37 pounds max) and I was putting the hammer on 3D targets left and right. I was then using the front center of my chin, which this person never saw before. I gave him a crash course of my procedure and he fell in love with my bow...right to the point he bought it. That bow was a great toy and I should have never sold it.

Another method I really liked was drawing with 3 fingers and dropping off the ring finger upon anchoring. I was quite accurate out to about 40 yards. Back then I never got into NFAA Outdoor or Field shooting, but believe I could have held my own.

Vegas is a event all of it's own. So I doubt NFAA Traditional rules apply. I don't know what the rules are now for NFAA, but there were almost knock down, drag out fights over how many fingers and placement of. One of our club members went to a meeting and according to him the meeting drug out almost two hours over arguing about this.

Canting the bow is still used today, just people acquire the same cant time and after time. I have a friend how looks like he's going to fall over when shooting! To me it's part feel and part visual.

Of the few times I got out my old Target Shakespheres (66 and 72") I aligned the string and arrow, sort of looking straight ahead. And I believe this is used a bunch today. Least wise what pictures I've seen of Vic Wunderle and of Korean shooters.

nshepro
04-23-2013, 11:19 PM
I have shot by myself since I moved up to Alaska. The pressure, competition and will to shoot well in front of others has completely gone. So the ability to shoot as good around others, or thoughts of others, as well as I shoot alone with a clear mind does not compare. Through this I have learned a couple things. Be honest to myself. If I hit a target I wasn't aiming for, what good does it do to play it off like that was my original plan. Second, losing the competitive edge is not worth losing.

DeepRiverBowman, I tried doing the blank bail. That is so difficult in reality to do because I base all my adjustments off of where my arrow landed in reference to where I was aiming. To not think about where the arrow is going is a lot harder than what I thought when I read your suggestion.

Amazing how much of a mind game this sport is.

Sonny Thomas
04-24-2013, 07:26 AM
Well, blank baling practice is to perfect form throughout. For a recurve I'd think perfection of form would have your arrows impacting at the same point. I don't care where they would impact, just that they impact in the same spot. Then adjusting whatever to have the arrows impact in the bull's eye comes after.

Competition is what you make it. Set a goal off of one group. Group so big, try to tighten it. It's a calm and collected mental aspect. Do everything the same way each and every time. If the "shot" isn't "there," you let down and start over.

Of the above shot placement after you acquire form perfection...or consistency may be a better word...
Seems no two people can shoot the same bow and get the same results for arrow placement. I made a trade a couple years back, my 06 ProElite even up for a 2 month old Martin Shadowcat. The person shot my bow and I shot his before we made the trade. On the 20 yard indoor practice range he slapped two arrows together. I then shot two arrows and busted the nock of the first arrow. Neither of us were on target. We knew what was going on and the trade took place. At this 3D last year DH wanted to try my Pearson MarXman and the target was 30 yards or so. His first shot was low and a good 10 inches right. He then figure point of impact and where he needed to aim, right at the 14 ring of the ASA target. He drilled the 10 ring easily and did it twice.

DeepRiverBowman
04-25-2013, 09:52 PM
If you have difficulty shooting blank bale and not aiming, try blind bale shooting - same thing only with your eyes closed. The idea behind both methods is to take aiming out of the picture and concentrate on elements of your form. It's also a good way to warm up and prepare for a session where you are aiming. Getting your form working and feeling 'right' then moving to the additional element of aiming improves your shot.

As has been said, getting your arrows to group well is the first step to an accurate shot. Once you achieve a good group it's a matter of experimenting to find the right anchor, grip, sight picture, etc. to move the group to the center of the bulls-eye. Group shooting can be broken into windage and elevation as well. Put a piece of duct tape vertically or horizontally on your target and work on hitting that. If vertically, work on windage. At any distance put all your shots in the tape irrespective of height. Do the same with a horizontal strip. At any distance put all your shots in the tape. When you work on windage and elevation separately you will find as you improve that the one you're not working on will get closer together too.

Like I said earlier, we sometimes spend too much practice time shooting 'live' shots. When we combine everything together and shoot bulls eyes we don't know which element is most responsibe for bad shots (or good shots for that matter). A good way to break your shot down into smaller elements to work on is to sit down without your bow and imagine each step of your shot. Write the steps down with sub-steps where needed. Then read each step and perform that step as written. You may find you have left something out or put it in the wrong sequence. Break it down smaller and smaller and try it again. You may find you have a step that says, "Nock the arrow," but no step that says, "Put cock feather out." When you get everything written down and tested to see if the sequence is right then you can work on individual elements. It sound overly simple, but I've seen guys shoot arrows without points, cock feather in the wrong place, not on the rest, etc. I once drew down on a nice buck and found my pendalum sight was in the 'locked' position. The buck didn't wait for me to correct my error! Mistakes cost you points - aviod them by practice and planning. If you have a bad arrow (cracked nock, bad fletch, lost point, etc.) put it in your case, not back in your quiver.

mike

typically8
04-25-2013, 11:24 PM
If you want some good reading about the proper way and muscles to use in shooting there's nothing better than Core Archery by Larry Wise.

DITTO. Its all about constant repetition in form.

nshepro
04-25-2013, 11:39 PM
WOW!, I really like that last paragraph. I spend enough time day dreaming about shooting and every not and then someone at work will catch me pretending to draw a bow.

I never would have thought to break it down that far. Just like making a syllabus for shooting. Almost a way to score and keep track of each step and to better identify what needs to be fixed. I am shooting traditional with no sights, but it still applies.

The windage and elevation, thats funny. Too many times I'll have a nice straight line up and down, just not in-line with the bulls eye.

Sonny, deep riverbowman, elkslayer, Ten ring, bfisher and everyone else, this is awesome. I haven't met any of you's, but I am really enjoying the coaching. Heck, I think anyone can learn something from what you guys (and girls if any, I don't want to exclude anyone) have provided.

DeepRiverBowman
04-26-2013, 10:10 PM
A "syllabus for shooting" is a good way to put it. Write it down then commit it to muscle memory by constant repetition. Tournament archery is attitude first, form and consistency second, then matched arrows and a balanced bow.

In the Olympics 90% of the winning is done by 5% of the shooters. Since everyone is shooting the best equipment made, your mental game and form are what makes the difference between winning and having a ncie tournament experience. If you think about it, tournament archery is a sport of consistency (repeatablity). You simply shoot one arrow into the center of the bulls eye and then repaet the shot exactly the same for 59 (or however many shots) more times. If you do everything the same, the arrows will go in the same place every time - assuming your arrows are matched perfectly.

A balanced bow simply means it sits well in your hand and jumps forward on release consistently. A balanced bow allows you to shoot more like a shooting machine - the same every time. Most any bow will put the same arrow in the same hole repeatably shot from a machine. Getting different arrows to hit the same hole from a machine is where matching your arrows comes in.

mike

elkslayer4x5
04-27-2013, 09:03 AM
Awesome guys. I was messing around with a few new technique ideas (3 fingers below v split, push and pull to draw, and hand grip) some seemed to work for the first shot, then back to haywire. I ended up breaking an arrow and losing another. I will check out the book and the DVD set. Thanks.

In the above quoted post you touched on one of the methods of finding an aiming point with a sightless bow. By shooting three fingers under, you bring the arrow up closer to your eye. Which will give a mid range "point on", that is where the point of your arrow in on the target. With my ole Pearson 'Cougar' ( 51#s @ my 30" draw ) shooting split fingers, my point on is 45 yds with the arrows I shoot, same arrows, 3 fingers under, its 30 yds. You can fine tune this method by moving your finger down the string, but you need a constant way of gauging how far down you're holding, with a tab, place 3 fingers under, then hold your thumbnail at the split in the tab, and move down to where your thumbnail is. This is called string walking, you can divide the top section of the tab in half or quartes, gaining differnt aiming points, by moving down the string using those divisions. Using the above string walking and a combitnation of differnt anchors,( forefinger, corner of mouth, middle finger, corner of mouth, under chin) you can move your point of aim out to further distances. It take some expermenting and practice, but can be very accurate. :)

peace
04-28-2013, 03:50 PM
In the above quoted post you touched on one of the methods of finding an aiming point with a sightless bow. By shooting three fingers under, you bring the arrow up closer to your eye. Which will give a mid range "point on", that is where the point of your arrow in on the target. With my ole Pearson 'Cougar' ( 51#s @ my 30" draw ) shooting split fingers, my point on is 45 yds with the arrows I shoot, same arrows, 3 fingers under, its 30 yds. You can fine tune this method by moving your finger down the string, but you need a constant way of gauging how far down you're holding, with a tab, place 3 fingers under, then hold your thumbnail at the split in the tab, and move down to where your thumbnail is. This is called string walking, you can divide the top section of the tab in half or quartes, gaining differnt aiming points, by moving down the string using those divisions. Using the above string walking and a combitnation of differnt anchors,( forefinger, corner of mouth, middle finger, corner of mouth, under chin) you can move your point of aim out to further distances. It take some expermenting and practice, but can be very accurate. :)

One time in English for us hard of hearing folks...seems every time someone explains this or writes it out I always end up not quite getting it and say well that's one I will have to catch on sometimes down the road, well I am sixty, 60 years old and there isn't a whole lot of rode left. String walking sky walking, dang I my never get this thing. Not for a lack of good explanations but for my own inability to visualize this thing, but I feel with this explanation elkslayer I am getting closer. :cool:

elkslayer4x5
04-29-2013, 11:41 AM
Peace,
I'll try to explain it with photos , look for my thread, Stringwalking, step by step in this forum. :D