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View Full Version : A Matter Of Draw Length (Get It Right)



bfisher
07-31-2014, 07:25 PM
This draw length issue comes up quite often and there are always discussions about it. Here's my taken on the issue.

First, I think the term draw length is used too much and is not used properly. But for the sake of argument let's go with the status quo and say that it is used to denote two measurements.

There is the matter of the bow. A bow can be set for a certain draw length depending on cam size and module used, whether it be a replaceable module or a rotating one. Most bows do not come from the factory with the draw length being as it is marked. This is usually due to the rigging (string/cables) being twisted to proper specs. Most all bow draw longer than marked; that being anywhere from 1/4" to as much as 1" long. The reason it is important to have a bow's draw length physically measured with the use of a draw board.

The second an most misunderstood use of the term draw length is that of the shooter. How many have heard or read someone say " I am a xxx draw length. I say this is hogwash. As we get more educated about archery equipment many are seeing the benefits of being measured for fit. Different methods of measuring can result in different measurements. Suppose we just use the popular wingspan divided by 2.5 method for sake of discussion. A man measures out to a 29" draw so he says I am a 29" draw. For one thing he IS NOT a 29" draw. All it means is that by this method it is suggested that a BOW with a 29" draw would fit him. Other methods might give a slightly different number, but you get the idea. The SHOOTER does NOT have a draw length per se.

Now let's add another variable to the picture; STRING LOOPS. It is sometimes said that a string loop does not change the draw length. Well, yes and no. If we're talking about the bow then this is correct. However, if we're talking about the shooter then things change. Assume a guy needs a bow with a draw length of 29" and finds this to be his optimum, meaning this is what length it takes to align the bow arm, chest, and drawing arm to the point where the bow holds and aims the most solid; with the least amount of float (movement on the target). Now he adds a string loop, say 3/4" long (quite common). Now all of a sudden he is stretched out (29 3/4") farther than his optimum length should be and his aiming goes to pot.

So in this context it is why I say a string loop does change the overall draw length of the SHOOTER. Some say it just changes your anchor points, but in this context isn't it the same thing?

Hutch~n~Son Archery
07-31-2014, 07:37 PM
Hey Barry,
What do you think of this video?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG0nb01SGMA

SixShooter14
07-31-2014, 07:55 PM
I while heartedly agree....

I can't count how many threads I've seen claiming that a string loop doesn't change your DL...it moves your anchor point back, meaning your draw arm is going to be back farther...thereby changing YOUR DL


My question is,
If you change your D-loop from say 1/2" to 1", should you shorten the BOWS DL by 1/2"?....

it'll mean losing a lil speed, but the correct anchor seems to be worth the loss

bfisher
07-31-2014, 09:27 PM
I while heartedly agree....

I can't count how many threads I've seen claiming that a string loop doesn't change your DL...it moves your anchor point back, meaning your draw arm is going to be back farther...thereby changing YOUR DL


My question is,
If you change your D-loop from say 1/2" to 1", should you shorten the BOWS DL by 1/2"?....

it'll mean losing a lil speed, but the correct anchor seems to be worth the loss

Not being a professional or a geometric scientist I can only put it this way. The girl I coach measured 24" (center of breast bone to crease in the wrist) this past winter. We adjusted so often I couldn't count how many times till we got the bow set as best we could for her shooting style. When I put her bow on my draw board I measured from the grip to the inside of the loop. This measurement was 23 7/8" AMO and she shot like an 11 year old champion. So YES, the actual bow setting was 5/8" less to allow for the loop.

This just goes to show what I am alluding to. By taking the time and perseverance to find the OPTIMUM draw length for her it ended up not being based on a measurement of 24". Close, but not right on. And the bow's measurement included the length of the loop, as it does have an effect on body alignment, which is what we're looking for.

SixShooter14
07-31-2014, 09:34 PM
By the same token, you could extend the bows DL, by hooking her release on the string?
Correct???


I think a comfortable, CONSISTENT anchor is the important thing.....like you said, when the pin floating is minimized and your back is holding the draw that's gonna be your DL...regardless of measurements

bfisher
07-31-2014, 10:22 PM
By the same token, you could extend the bows DL, by hooking her release on the string?
Correct???


I think a comfortable, CONSISTENT anchor is the important thing.....like you said, when the pin floating is minimized and your back is holding the draw that's gonna be your DL...regardless of measurements

Can't change the release as it's a True Fire Hard Core Max; a loop release with just a hook. The thing with her is that she's 11 years old and growing. She now measures 24 1/4" and that's as short as I can make the bow so it's working out pretty well for now. Who knows what the heck she'll need come indoor season in December. Now I'm the one who shoots right off the string.

Sonny Thomas
08-01-2014, 10:36 AM
Not trying to think, just rattle off what's in brain.

Bow's draw length, your draw length, draw length fitted to you ;)
Variables - loop added to bow string. Type of and length of release aid.

Bow companies spit out every once in a while; "Accuracy comes from the Wall." The wall, of course, is the bow at full draw, cables into the module grooves, positive draw stops on the limbs, whatever you want to call it. Why from the Wall? Because it is a positive start point.

Barry knows when the bow's draw length doesn't fit him. I know when the bow's draw length doesn't fit me. Our personal bows we know best. 1/8" long can feel terribly long.... Mods to best setting, we twist strings or change d-loop lengths or both.

Anchor point is established by type of release. It's bone to bone, not forced, and repeatable without thought. It's "perfect." Why would you change from "perfect?" D-loop doesn't change draw length? What if the d-loop is 4 inches long? Where are you going to anchor?

SixShooter14
08-01-2014, 10:52 AM
Anchor point is established by type of release. It's bone to bone, not forced, and repeatable without thought. It's "perfect." Why would you change from "perfect?" D-loop doesn't change draw length? What if the d-loop is 4 inches long? Where are you going to anchor?

I'm still a novice archer, but shouldn't you anchor in the same spot, regardless of d-loop length???

If you change your d-loop from 1" to 4"...then you should adjust the BOW DL -3"......thereby maintaining your correct anchor at full draw

Sonny Thomas
08-01-2014, 02:43 PM
You're thinking too hard ;) I have question marks. 1) There is no reason to change the "perfect" anchor. 2) People say a d-loop doesn't change draw length, you anchor farther back - read on. I asked; "What if the d-loop was 4 inches long?" followed by the question; "Where are you going to anchor?" Well, you can't anchor behind your head, so the bow's draw length has to be modified in some manner to fit the shooter.

Note; I noted Barry and I can tell the difference of 1/8" too long for draw length, but some who are more sensitive can tell of draw length off by as little as 1/16", even .040".

Durandal
08-03-2014, 01:33 AM
Since drawing a bow involves pulling the string to your anchor point, any change in anchor point means a change in the draw length. Simple logic. Anyone that thinks differently needs to spend some time watching some Bill Nye episodes....

This reminds of the time an archer was trying to convince me that an arrow kept accelerating after leaving the string.

elkslayer4x5
08-03-2014, 09:52 AM
This reminds of the time an archer was trying to convince me that an arrow kept accelerating after leaving the string.

THAT must have been an interesting conversation, amazing what some people will believe despite all logic. :confused:

Durandal
08-03-2014, 10:56 AM
THAT must have been an interesting conversation, amazing what some people will believe despite all logic. :confused:

Lol you have no idea. Gentlemen was an engineer of all things and as far as I know, still believes it to this day.

otisT
08-03-2014, 11:12 AM
Over the years, have had a couple guys patiently explain to me how a bullet RISES after leaving a rifle's barrel, "because of the twist"; all the illustrations on sighting in show it. Guess I'm just a mite dense...o

Feel free to disagree with that last statement... lol

SixShooter14
08-03-2014, 11:25 AM
Over the years, have had a couple guys patiently explain to me how a bullet RISES after leaving a rifle's barrel, "because of the twist"; all the illustrations on sighting in show it. Guess I'm just a mite dense...o

Feel free to disagree with that last statement... lol
It does continue to rise...but not because of twist......it's because the barrel is angled up...

If the barrel is level, then the bullet begins dropping immediately

FishingandHuntingUSA
08-03-2014, 12:12 PM
Draw length is measured from the knock grove to the pivot point of the bow so adding a D-Loop does not change
the draw length it just changes your anchor point. Try cutting an arrow to your draw length then draw it back and see where it ends up then add a 2 inch D-Loop and you will see the arrow ends up in the same place not 2 inches back.

Just think though if it is true that the D-Loop adds to the draw length then all these bow companies using draw mods and selling different cams with the different draw lengths can simply offer longer D-Loop and make all bows 25" draw. Boy that would save us all a lot of time and money and how dumb are those bow companies thinking
they have to make all the different mods and cams.

otisT
08-03-2014, 12:50 PM
Might have to invent a new term here; how about 'effective draw length'? In his original post, bfisher noted he considers there are TWO 'draw lengths'; that of the bow and that of the archer. Yeah, a bow's 'draw length' doesn't change unless somebody or something (string stretch, for instance) physically changes it, but he's pointing out that most any changes to a bow changes the archers 'effective' draw length; add a D-loop, yeah, might want to go back and shorten the bow's draw length to keep the same anchor point; if you want the D-loop AND to, say, still have the string touch the end of your nose, have to change your anchor point - might be considered lengthening the archers draw length...
The most important thing to remember about bfisher's first post is, to quote; "Here's my take on the issue"... {:>)...o

lol SS14, yes, we're talking about the same thing but; "It does continue to rise"? No matter the angle (even straight up if you consider deceleration as 'drop'), the instant a bullet leaves the barrel, in starts falling. Even if you consider the slight angle one would have the gun barrel pointed up as the bullet 'rising', it would instantly begin to drop upon exiting the end of the barrel; wouldn't 'continue to rise' lol Just a point of terminology, we're on the same page, just talking different dialects.

Sonny Thomas
08-04-2014, 09:48 AM
.
Guess I'm just a mite dense...o

Feel free to disagree with that last statement... lol

That last statement? Okay, I'll agree with you. I ain't hard to get along with..... :p



Arrow and bullet rise. People don't seem understand where the arrow or bullet is in the bow or rifle back to the height of the sights. Ever hear of the cowboy who tried to shoot a fly off the toe of his boot? Near shot his toe off. Why? Because the top of the sight post is near 1" above the bore of the pistol.

Normally, I set up a bow so the 20 yard pin is 3 3/8" above the top of the arrow shaft. Now, the arrow has to rise that 3 3/8" to be on at 20 yards, intersect the 20 yard pin.

Probably would drive some bunkers; I use a sight frame. Single pin, move sight up and down for wanted yardage. For 7 yards I have to use my 25 yard sight setting to hit the X ring. I just did this Sunday at a 3D. Dave, my sidekick, using a thinner, heavier arrow had to use his 28 yard sight setting. His arrow slide right down the side of mine.

otisT
08-04-2014, 12:11 PM
DISagree, Sonny! lol time for them new reading glasses ? Nice shooting re other thread, btw.

Sonny Thomas
08-04-2014, 03:34 PM
New glasses? Is that why I can't see my smiley? See if it works here ;) Dang! I'll see I can fix it...
??? It won't fix...broke, maybe. ??? Bottom or top limb maybe.... ;)

Okay, Otis, I'll disagree with you. You are not dense.... You're kinda :cool:

Sonny Thomas
08-04-2014, 04:13 PM
Draw length is measured from the knock grove to the pivot point of the bow so adding a D-Loop does not change the draw length it just changes your anchor point.

Otis talked me into being disagreeable. Yeah, he did ;) So here goes.... All diagrams for draw length measurement began with the traditional and/or recurve bow. D-loops were around or at least not the "in thing" at the time. So, today, measuring from the deepest of the riser grip to apex of the string is wrong and only right if shooting off the string.... Changing your anchor point became the thing to say, but it is also wrong. Too long a d-loop and you can't anchor... Chicken sh=t people abound. I could name T-Bone (him and his sometimes off the wall videos), nuts&bolts and a couple of others. Still, both knew if they disagreed they would have the "world come crashing down on them." Alan, nuts&bolts, once, and only once can I remember, noted of long d-loops; "sooner or later there is no place to anchor."

I gave a diagram. I'll point out something SEE BLUE CIRCLES.

Regardless, a d-loop is a addition to the draw length of the bow and should be considered......

SixShooter14
08-04-2014, 04:43 PM
Agreed...

when you add d-loop, you must shorten Bows DL to maintain anchor point

otisT
08-04-2014, 08:03 PM
lol Sonny, my old man used to say, "never look back, it's a sign of old age." BUT you remind me of;
Long ago a rather small of stature fellow, without a lot of funds to spend, went and bought a bow just so he could go hunting with me and other comrades; he was welcome to come along anyway, but .... well, you know how people are, being one of the 'hunters' made him feel a better fit, I guess. Probably got the bow at a hock shop or some such; he had, perhaps, a 26 inch DL, at most, and the old bow probably had a 30 plus DL. He just showed up, raring to go, and we had not time to help him; we was going hunting! In camp he showed how he'd been practicing and all to get ready. To this day, I'm still amazed he never cut his ear off! lol If he'd had a solid anchor, would have for darn sure!... o

Sonny Thomas
08-04-2014, 08:47 PM
Nothing wrong with looking back on fond memories.....