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Poor Shooter
01-01-2009, 09:31 AM
I bought my wife a Mystic 35 to 50 pounder. She currently shoots a Mathews Conquest 4 @ 35 pounds. She cannot comfortably pull back the Mystic @ 35 pounds. Can I get 5 more pounds off of it?? SAFELY
She likes how the Mystic feels but just cant shoot it.

Thanks

flytier17
01-01-2009, 09:50 AM
Well, I own a bow that was shot quite a bit 27lbs and it is a 40-55lb bow. It is probably not the greatet thing to do for a long-term permanent setting, but if it is short-term, I see no problem.

The backing out of the bolt was more of a problem when it was tapped directly into the riser. With the bows Martin has not, the bolt screws into a rotating thread, so it can adjust the angle to match the bolt as it gets backed off. The result a with tapped risers is usually a bent limb bolt, but now, that is not an issue.

It is mor eimportant that she be comfortable with the bow than anything else. If your wife's comfort zone is still under 35lbs after shooting the bow for a while, maybe it would be a good idea to look for a lower deflection limb. on Archerytalk.com, you might be able to get a trade or something. Look at the base of the limb. there will be a # and a letter. If you went with a limb 1 number lower, you would reduce the weight range by 5lbs. eg. a 5H limb gives 50-65lbs on my Slayer, so a 4H limb would give 45-60lbs. 1 letter lower is about 3lbs, so If I switched my Slayer limb from a 5H to a 5M, it would be a 47-62lb. bow. there are 3 letters, H for High, M for Medium, and L for Low.

Hope this helps you, and good luck with the bow.

Alec

Poor Shooter
01-01-2009, 10:08 AM
How far can the limb bolts be backed out??? The book tells me no more than 5 turns. I know that is a guide to cover them from people doing things like this.
She shoots probably 5 days a week the more she shoots the more she likes it. You also dont want to get the limbs too far out of the pocket, right???

Poor Shooter
01-01-2009, 10:13 AM
another question, The bow is not offered in lower pounds so will there be a lower deflection limb???

alex
01-01-2009, 11:34 AM
I think that you should not lower it more/less (sometimes the english is so confusing :D ) then 35#.I believe with some practice your wife will soon be able to pull the bow.May be some push-ups will help ;) When i started shooting a compound bow 55# were hard for me and some 3 weeks later that weight was no more a problem for me.

flytier17
01-01-2009, 12:05 PM
What is the limb style? it will be a 17" Elite or a 14" Mag. I would assume Elite. Also, what is the lettering at the base of the limb?

5 turns = 15lbs @ 3lbs per. turn. Thats why Martin says 5 turns. Truth is, you can back those bolts out enough to dissasemble the bow if you were so inclined. Thats another + with a martin; no bowpress needed if you are in a pinch. If you want, try turning them out 6 turns, or 7. At such a low poundage already, there is not too much stress. On a 70lb bow it might be a bit different.

Just because Martin doesn't advertise a certain option, doesn't mean it isn't available. I have a 50-65lb Slayer, and a 40-55lb. Pantera. Since when has martin advertised 5lb. increments in peak weight?;) I have seen an 08 Martin Firecat in Hunter Black, which is an 09 colour. My pantera has nitrous X cams, whereas Martin only listed it as coming with an Mpro. Barry fisher on here has a shadowcat with SE limb pockets that makes a 32" bow with an BH of 9" or so. Again, not a listed option from Martin. Elk4Me has a Rytera Bullet X with a martin Mpro cam. (Rytera is a high-end subsidary/brother company to Martin archery). I could go on... The point is, always ask for more info if you can't find just what you need.

Now, if you give me the limb style and deflection, I will see if they come any lower.

If you are the original owner of the bow, call martins tech service and explain the situation. I'm sure they will understand, and who knows, they might let you swap? The worst they can say is no.

Alec

Poor Shooter
01-01-2009, 12:52 PM
The bow has 17" limbs (elite) They are a curved limb not straight.
The only lettering on the end of the limb is 4M.
It has a Furious cam on it letter M


I am planning on making it a Furious X cam. I would like to get her shooting it before I do that.

Most of the other bow co. dont want you playing with their bows is why I asked here.

ALEX----We have tried to increase my wifes poundage above 35 several times in the past but 35 is where she is happy. I have to keep the wife happy!!!;)

We are the original owners.

flytier17
01-01-2009, 01:38 PM
Ordering a 2M limb set would give the bow a 25-40lb range. Or, you could go lower and have a 20-35lb range with a 1M set. I'd go for that myself because when you shoot in the upper range of weight adjustment of your bow, the effeceincy is increased slightly.

The M on the cam is actually designating the module size, small, medium, or large. Yours would be a standard sized furious cam with medium modules. when you order X-mods, you will have to specify M-sized modules.

Bow companies don't want you messing with their bows if you don't know what you are doing as it gets costly from a warrenty point of view. Having no way to censor who can do what with what bow, they are left with no option but to set clearly defined parameters for their customers, and to set guidelines in place. These are not absolutes, and there are many who deviate to find what works the best for them.

I am not telling you to ignore Martins admonitions on the subject, but just informing you that what you read in the pamphlet that comes with your bow is not hard-and-fast set-in-stone rules. If you know what you are doing, and know what to do, by all means, experiment.

Alec

SandSquid
01-01-2009, 01:40 PM
The bow has 17" limbs (elite) They are a curved limb not straight.
The only lettering on the end of the limb is 4M.

A "4M" seems a bit high to get below 35#.

My wife's (2006 ShadowCat, Elite Limbs Nitrous (not "X") Cams) bow came w/ 7?, WAY too high for her!
I found her some 5H but they were still too heavy and to get it down to 35#, we ended up (temporarily) with some 3H limbs (on loan form the local Pro Shop so she could shoot in the current league) and backed them a full 5 turns out... she's at 37.3# and managing but not overjoyed with it. (I tried telling her they were EXACTLY 35# but she told me they were not, that "she could feel it".)

I personally don't like them backed that far out, and I'm searching for some 1, 2 or 3L limbs to replace them with. If I can't come up with something used soon I'll break down and order some 1H limbs from Martin.


Question for you though, did you actually measure the Mystic and the Conquest side-by-side on a pull-scale? I have seen bows stated as a certain weight and actually pull a whole lot different.

Poor Shooter
01-01-2009, 02:15 PM
I agree about playing with bows. In the early 90's I put a Darton Lightning cam on a Proline Carbon 44 bow. That was faster and smoother than the Lightning. It turned a lot of heads at a 3D at that time. The bad thing was at about 1000 arrows the top limb would start to split.

I am going to call Martin Friday and see if I can trade or what to get a set of 1M limbs. I also agree that shooting in the top 20% of draw weight is better. I am also going to get the smaller modules to put her on the high end of Draw length. This is my first try with a Martin am I am not making any conclusions yet. We got a deal on the Bow so we're not hurt yet.

Scaled both bows, the Martin starts pulling pounds faster. I am assuming it is the dual cams.

Taking the bow apart without a press sounds interesting????


Thanks for the ideas. and Happy New Year

SandSquid
01-01-2009, 02:53 PM
Taking the bow apart without a press sounds interesting????


http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/4b0O5HP-4eM/default.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b0O5HP-4eM ("")

flytier17
01-01-2009, 04:30 PM
I agree about playing with bows. In the early 90's I put a Darton Lightning cam on a Proline Carbon 44 bow. That was faster and smoother than the Lightning. It turned a lot of heads at a 3D at that time. The bad thing was at about 1000 arrows the top limb would start to split.

I am going to call Martin Friday and see if I can trade or what to get a set of 1M limbs. I also agree that shooting in the top 20% of draw weight is better. I am also going to get the smaller modules to put her on the high end of Draw length. This is my first try with a Martin am I am not making any conclusions yet. We got a deal on the Bow so we're not hurt yet.

Scaled both bows, the Martin starts pulling pounds faster. I am assuming it is the dual cams.

Taking the bow apart without a press sounds interesting????


Thanks for the ideas. and Happy New Year


A solo can ramp up as quickly or even more so than a Dual. it is just the design.

The Nitrous for example is a hard draw speed cam. But, it gets its speed through elongated rollovers into and out of the peak weight, and the peak is long and flat with no deviation. The result is a cam that is a speed cam, and draws hard because of the length of peak and absence of valley, but is not a harsh draw because of the gentle rollover. It is smoother and faster than the furious, albiet less fogiving.

flytier17
01-01-2009, 04:58 PM
A "4M" seems a bit high to get below 35#.

My wife's (2006 ShadowCat, Elite Limbs Nitrous (not "X") Cams) bow came w/ 7?, WAY too high for her!
I found her some 5H but they were still too heavy and to get it down to 35#, we ended up (temporarily) with some 3H limbs (on loan form the local Pro Shop so she could shoot in the current league) and backed them a full 5 turns out... she's at 37.3# and managing but not overjoyed with it. (I tried telling her they were EXACTLY 35# but she told me they were not, that "she could feel it".)

I personally don't like them backed that far out, and I'm searching for some 1, 2 or 3L limbs to replace them with. If I can't come up with something used soon I'll break down and order some 1H limbs from Martin.

Question for you though, did you actually measure the Mystic and the Conquest side-by-side on a pull-scale? I have seen bows stated as a certain weight and actually pull a whole lot different.



Just because the # is high means nothing about how low you should put the limb. If it takes a 7 M or a 12 M or whatever to reach your wieght range, than you are OK.

What you have to understand also is that diferent cam styles and designs exert different forces on the limb. My Slayer with B cams and 2H limbs as originally mistakenly shipped to em peaked @ 60lbs. I needed C cams for my 29.5" DL. If I got them, the larger size would have resulted in a 50lb peak. Nitrous, Furious, C.A.T., Dyna, Mpro, z, and Fuzion cams all have different effects. As long as you match the deflection to the cam sizer to get your weight, you're good.

Also to consider is the different profiles of a bow's geometry. Certain angles on the limb pocket exert different prelaoded stress on the limb. Again, I will use 2 of my bows as an example. My Pantera and my Slayer both use Nitrous X "C" sized cams. Both are parallell limbed bows. The Slayer peaks at 65lbs with 5H limbs. The Pantera peaks at 55lbs with 2H limbs. to get the pantera to the same poundage as the Slayer, I would need 4H limbs. So I would have 2 bows with the same peak weight and the same cams. Why re different deflections required then? Why does the Slayer not need 4H instead of the 5H, or Vice Versa. The answer is differing preloads. The Pantera's geometry exerts the limbs more from the start, meaning it is already laoded up. with the same cams, the limbs have to travel the same distance, so the Pantera would be under more stress at full draw. Since the further a limb is stressed, the more resistence it offers, a weaker limb is required to get the same final poundage.

In no way should you use the shadowcat's specs with different geometrys and cam systems to determine the specs for a completely different bow. You can get a rough idea, but that is the limit of it. If you had a practiced eye and some basic knowledge of the comparing forces, as a bow designer would, you could get even closer. But they are still different bows with different profiles, and different cams.

If a 4H limb gives you a peak weight of 50lbs, than it is perfectly all right to back it down to 35lbs. It is within Martins design and specs. Even if you needed a 112H limb (no such thing, I am exaggerating to get a point across) to reach a 35-50lb weight range, you are still all right. They are just #'s, not statistics common to every bow and cam system.

And as far as I'm concerned, if you waqnted to back the bow below 35 by as much as 5 lbs, no harm will come in the short term. I would not plan to keep it that way foreevr, but for a while it will do absolutely no harm to your bow. especially considering the low level of stress that is already placed on the system. Like I said, the Pantera i have was shot at 13lbs. lower than its lowest weight setting range for over a year by an experienced Martin Staff Shooter who probably put quite a few arrows through it while at that system. I have also put the bow up to 63lbs with more limb preload by twisting cables, and shot it backed down to 55lbs with the shortened cables because I got better speed, and a smoother shorter rollover.

Also, with regard to "verifying" the bows weight with a scale, make sure it is an accurate scale, not a cardoza or a hardware store special.

bfisher
01-01-2009, 07:19 PM
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest. Alec, you are handling this very well. Good explanations with lots of detail.

Poor Shooter, I was the previous owner of the 2007 Pantera Alec was explaining about.

flytier17
01-01-2009, 08:03 PM
Why thank you very much.

How did I do explaining limb preload? That was the way I was told, and I partly figured it out too with some research. this is the first time I've really had to adress it.

Alec

Poor Shooter
01-01-2009, 09:29 PM
I agree he did a good job of explaining. The only thing is by backing out the limbs beyond their spec'd range you lose a greater stored energy in the limb than you would if you were using them in the range. I have actually seen cables come off when you back limbs off too much beyond their intended amout. One of the examples I can think of was a PSE Bandit bow it was intended to go down to 30 pounds the guy backed it off to 25 after surgery and It would not keep the cables on. 30 pounds it worked great.

I appreciate the advice and I am going to call Martin in the Morning. I dont know anything about Martins and have never shot one myself. It gives me a starting point and tells me a little of what has been done to the bows.

Thanks again
Dave

bfisher
01-01-2009, 10:15 PM
Dave,

I've seen what you're talking about, too. Just not enough tension on the cables and string so one or the other just pops off. In my case with the Pantera I was having muscle problems and ended up with neck surgery. For about the next six months I really stuggled with a 15# draw weight. When I finally got up around 25# I dug out my Pantera with Nitrous X cams. The only way I could shoot it was to crank it down and ended up at 27# (55# limbs).

Granted, I knew this would not be a permanent thing. At that time I even had trouble with the mass weight of the bow so ended up selling it to Alec and I ordered another bow; lighter mass weight and lighter draw weight.

I am totally in agreement with you that to back the limbs down too far permanently is not recommended. Best to get the right limbs for a long term solution.

Poor Shooter
01-08-2009, 07:28 AM
Just to let you guys know that helped me out.

The Mystic Elite only goes down to a 40# max limb. (They are not advertised though) I have the new set of limbs on the way.

Thanks again
Dave

bfisher
01-08-2009, 10:08 AM
Glad things are working for you---and the wife.

Poor Shooter
01-08-2009, 10:14 AM
Thanks

They also said to keep the limbs in the range they said for the best performance. They agreed that a little less pounds probably would not hurt them short term. However they have a warranty.

flytier17
01-08-2009, 02:25 PM
Good for you, I'm glad you found a solution.

Did Martin replace the limbs, or did you have to buy a second set?

Alec

Poor Shooter
01-08-2009, 09:22 PM
They replaced the limbs and we decided to change the draw length modules to be toward the longer instead of the shorter of length. They traded me out. I had to go thru a bow shop was the only catch. My son shoots for a shop so that was an easy task.

They were very nice and we discussed what we wanted out of the bow. The wife is hoping to be shooting it next week.

flytier17
01-09-2009, 02:13 PM
Good for you, I'm glad you had a positive experience. I hope your wife enjoys her bow a lot, and that it serves her well.

Poor Shooter
02-10-2009, 07:54 PM
Just an update to the guys that helped. The wife loves the bow. She finished 2nd at our Missouri Archery Assoc. (NAA rules) state indoor tourney. behind the woman that holds the MAA records for indoor and outdoor. She even beat me which is not that hard. She has also decided to shoot the NFAA Midwest Sectionals in KC and NFAA Nationals. Things are looking up but I may have created a monster.

Thanks again
Dave

SandSquid
02-10-2009, 08:30 PM
She has also decided to shoot the NFAA Midwest Sectionals in KC and NFAA Nationals. Things are looking up but I may have created a monster.

I created 3 monsters, My wife and both daughters... Last Thursday even the youngest out-shot me!

Wife had not touched a bow before this just past Thanksgiving, and she's now shooting 290's/40+X's


BTW, were staying @ LaQuinta Suites on Preston Hwy... if you want to get together for a "Meet & Greet" on Friday Evening..... I'm sure the womenfolks will get along just great.

Poor Shooter
02-11-2009, 07:15 PM
Thats great that the whole family is involved. My wife and 2 boys shoot and I take care of their equipment. I shoot when I can. My 13yr old I cant touch with a compound (300-55X avg). He is Natl Champ. with a recurve(outdoor)(started a recurve in April 08).
The wife is a mid 290-40+ shooter. She will be shooting a year in March. My 7yr old set an outdoor Yeoman class record at 6yrs old of 1298. He has been shooting a year this month. He is alot better this year but dont like to shoot that much. Then there is me. :rolleyes:

Is that at Louisville? That would be good I always like to meet new people.

Dave

bfisher
02-11-2009, 09:28 PM
Sandsquid,

Just what are you trying to do? You're nuts. Just had shoulder surgery and you're shooting already? What happened to the 6 months of rehab?

Barry

SandSquid
02-11-2009, 11:16 PM
Sandsquid,

Just what are you trying to do? You're nuts. Just had shoulder surgery and you're shooting already? What happened to the 6 months of rehab?

Barry

I'm right handed and had shoulder surgery(I'm 4 weeks Post-Op tomorrow!) on my left shoulder... but that still leaves my right arm usable! I'm shooting my wife's left hand bow (Cheetah) holding with my right hand I attached a "chew strap" to the D-loop and drawing and shooting with my TEETH!
http://www.martinarchery.com/mtechforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=499&stc=1&d=1233369437

see video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfB15bZJXsM

SandSquid
02-11-2009, 11:23 PM
Is that at Louisville? That would be good I always like to meet new people.


Yes. Louisville... Well get there on the eve of the 13th.

If we don't hook up outside the convention center, I should be easy to spot inside as I'll be the guy wearing the shoulder immobilizer (see video in above post) and likely be wearing a desert-camo "boonie" hat and for sure have a pair of vortex binos on a shoulder harness...

my Cell is (nine,zero,one)two,eight,three-five,eight,nine,zero

Poor Shooter
02-13-2009, 04:22 PM
We'll be there then too.

I would think you are just a little dedicated. I dont think I would be shooting until I was all recovered. I work in a Hospital and get to see a lot of people get repair surgery from starting back to work early. I cant even imagine what you are doing.

Good Luck
Dave