PDA

View Full Version : arrow spine question



BrownOut
08-31-2009, 01:17 PM
I'm currently using 5575 arrows that are 29" on my Firehawk that is set at 65lbs and a 29" draw. If I crank it up to 70lbs will my arrows be underspined? I've seen some chart that say 5575 is appropriate while others recommend 7595. I've also done some reading that say aggressive cams require a stiffer arrow, in my opinion the cat cams are pretty agressive, but have not seen any chart that differentiate between different cam types, they only seem to reference draw weight. Thanks

Spiker
08-31-2009, 05:38 PM
I would try some 7595's if you are going to shoot broadheads.
Especially if yer going to shoot at 70# dw.
They will make it a lot quieter also.

just me...

bfisher
08-31-2009, 07:48 PM
Check Easton's arrow selection charts to see how they compare. GT 5575 is a 400 spine--at least Easton marks theirs right. And FYI I do shoot Gold Tip arrows at times.

I think you'll find that in most cases your arrows are right on the upper end of weight range at 65# at 29". There is no doubt in my mind that should you go to 70# you'll need 7595, as they are a 340 spine. If you want what I consider to be a better choice in Gold Tips I would choose the Ultralite 22 series, a 300 spine.

BrownOut
08-31-2009, 08:04 PM
Appreciate the advice, think I'll be looking into some 7595.

bfisher
08-31-2009, 08:07 PM
If the 5575 flies well now and tunes OK with broadheads why not just leave well enough alone. 65# is more than you need so 70# would just be more of the same. Why lay out money for new arrows when what you have might work OK.

BrownOut
09-01-2009, 07:39 AM
That would be great, they seem to fly plenty consistent with field points but when I throw my Montecs on there things seem to get a little squirrelly. I'm new to bowhunting so they are the only broadheads I've used, never tried out any mechanicals, do they really fly that much better? I would much rather buy a pack of mechanicals than 12 new 7595s.

Bowhunting ain't cheap but I'm not complaining, wish my girlfriend felt the same way.

bfisher
09-01-2009, 08:14 AM
If you know how to tune the bow for broadheads you should be able to get those Montcs to fly. The arrows flying squirrely could be a spine issue or it could be a tuning issue. You need a copy of Easton's Tuning Guide. It'll explain most everything you need to know about tuning.

You can get mechanicals if you like, but you're still better off to get the bow tuned properly. I don't shoot enough weight to be able to use them, but I've always put myself behind the eight ball and tuned the bow to the nth degree, no matter what I shoot. Part of it is being pig headed, telling myself that this bow ain't gettin me. I will sometimes spend months tweaking a bow, bjust to get it right. Call it being pig headed or call it just being picky. I like to say it's taking pride in myself to take the time to learn what it akes to get everything right so that I know that the only problem is me when I make an errant shot.

For what it's worth, if you find that you have a slight spine issue (arrows too weak) then I would get new arrows before spending money on broadheads. Think about it. A dozen arrows cost about the same as 6 mechanical broadheads. You shoot broadheads a few shots each year. You get to shoot the arrows all year long.

Now, I used to be on Gold Tip's advisory staff so know a little about them. I still shoot them as I shoot my ACC's. My advice when looking at the Gold Tip spine charts is to rate them for 10# less than what you would shoot. In other words. In other words, for you, thinking of maybe going to 70#. Chart shows a 29" you would want a 5575 (400). Look down to 75-80# and you'll get the right arrow for you
(7595). Their charts do not account very well for the aggressiveness of newer cams. If you do intend going to 70# you'll need them and you'll find they tune a little easier than the lighter 5575, especially with broadheads.

BrownOut
09-01-2009, 10:04 AM
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice, I'm learning something new everyday. I guess one concern is tuning the bow for the broadheads, at 65# with the field points I can make really tight groups, I initially assumed that I would get the same results with the broadheads being that they were all 100grain, but that was not the case. I guess they were accurate enough, but thats not good enough for me when I know how accurate the bow can be with the field points. If I can be more accurate with mechanicals and the bow will require less adjustment than a fixed blade broadhead than I guess that is worth it to me.

bfisher
09-02-2009, 09:22 AM
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice, I'm learning something new everyday. I guess one concern is tuning the bow for the broadheads, at 65# with the field points I can make really tight groups, I initially assumed that I would get the same results with the broadheads being that they were all 100grain, but that was not the case. I guess they were accurate enough, but thats not good enough for me when I know how accurate the bow can be with the field points. If I can be more accurate with mechanicals and the bow will require less adjustment than a fixed blade broadhead than I guess that is worth it to me.

Name your own poison. Although I don't use mechanicals, as I explained, I would never fault someone like yourself for using them if your goal is to get the best accuracy out of your setup

I do get a little perturbed with people who can't or won't tune their setups and just pick mechanicals as a bandaid for their inabilites or laziness to tune. Such doesn't seem to be the case with you.

Have a happy hunting season in any case, and good luck.

NewNYBowhunter
09-07-2009, 09:42 PM
I have a couple of questions about the tuning of broadheads. bfisher, you say that the 5575 arrows might be too weak spined for a Firecat at 70#? I just picked up some 5575 Gold Tips for mine and wanted to use them for hunting. I'm down around 362-368 gr. on them and now I'm not sure from what you posted if they are the right arrows for broadheads. I haven't shot any broadheads with this bow yet, but last year, I shot both out of the same bow, (but a heavier arrow) and they flew pretty much the same, 411 gr. at 70#. are you suggesting I might be needing to get heavier spined arrows?
I was also shooting 100 gr Muzzy fixed blade broadheads

alex
09-08-2009, 07:37 AM
Barry, i'll join the line of questioning ;) I shoot with my MOAB, set at about 50lbs, Gold Tip Vapor 300 arrows.I think they fly quite good, but please tell me your expert opinion. Thanks! :)

bfisher
09-08-2009, 08:37 AM
Barry, i'll join the line of questioning ;) I shoot with my MOAB, set at about 50lbs, Gold Tip Vapor 300 arrows.I think they fly quite good, but please tell me your expert opinion. Thanks! :)

How long an arrow and what's your draw length Alex? I shot Vapors at one time and if memory serves me right the 300 is something like a 400 spine or there abouts. I think they used to designated the 3000, but since GT bought the company maybe they just dropped a zero (confusion) Probably on the stiff side for your setup, but there are no hard and fast rules. If they fly well for you then that's what you're looking for. How do your broadheads fly in relation to field tips? The only reason to go lighter
(200) would be if you want more speed, but you wouldn't gain all that much.

bfisher
09-08-2009, 08:50 AM
I have a couple of questions about the tuning of broadheads. bfisher, you say that the 5575 arrows might be too weak spined for a Firecat at 70#? I just picked up some 5575 Gold Tips for mine and wanted to use them for hunting. I'm down around 362-368 gr. on them and now I'm not sure from what you posted if they are the right arrows for broadheads. I haven't shot any broadheads with this bow yet, but last year, I shot both out of the same bow, (but a heavier arrow) and they flew pretty much the same, 411 gr. at 70#. are you suggesting I might be needing to get heavier spined arrows?
I was also shooting 100 gr Muzzy fixed blade broadheads

Whether 5575 is too weak or not depends on the draw length, the length of the arrow, point weight, fletching style, shooting form, and other things. It's been my experience that the labeling of the 5575 is outdated for today's more aggressive cams. Probably by about 5#, but length must be considered.

The proof is in the shooting. If you can tune them decent with field tips then get to shooting broadheads. If they tune well with broadheads out to your maximum shooting distance, or 40 yards, whichever is longer, then I would use them. If they are accurate then that's all that counts.

If you find they shoot OK with field tips but are squirrely with broadheads then maybe you just need to drop some bow weight, maybe to 65#. I've never been one to go spend money on a lot of different arrows. Limb bolts are one of the most unused tuning tools these days. Everybody is stuck on some magic number, usually 70#, thinking that more poundage equals greater kinetic energy. While energy is important it's not the whole story. You're not going to get good penetration if all that energy isn't driving the arrow straight forward. Any sideways motion (poor flight) scrubs down range speed and is very detrimental to good penetration. So if you can get good flight by dropping a few pounds from the bow then where's the harm? Afterall, poundage is just a number.

So you'll have to try tuning and see what happens. If you gotta drop a few pounds so what? Why drop another $100 for new arrows.

alex
09-08-2009, 09:17 AM
How long an arrow and what's your draw length Alex? I shot Vapors at one time and if memory serves me right the 300 is something like a 400 spine or there abouts. I think they used to designated the 3000, but since GT bought the company maybe they just dropped a zero (confusion) Probably on the stiff side for your setup, but there are no hard and fast rules. If they fly well for you then that's what you're looking for. How do your broadheads fly in relation to field tips? The only reason to go lighter
(200) would be if you want more speed, but you wouldn't gain all that much.

Barry,thanks for the quick answer! Your first question is something that worries me - my DL is about 28 - 28 1/2, but i use the "blank" modual of the MOAB -F5 as far as i remember. I tought that with it i'd have the needed DL, but when i measured it, it was about 26 1/2, so my arrows are about 28 inches. This was unpleasant surprise for me :D , but since i feel the bow comfortable i left it the way it was. The Gold Tip arrows say that are for 75-90# bows...,but here is almost impossibble to find other quality arrows and i'm forced to keep them. Since you say they can't do no harm, i'm OK with them. Never tried them with broadheads-i'm not a hunter and bowhunting is still not quite legal in Bulgaria (not to mention that i'm jobless now :( ) so i don't want to give money for useless equipment. And about the speed - i'll leave the dreams for speed for better times, when i'll have a speed bow :D

bfisher
09-08-2009, 06:55 PM
Barry,thanks for the quick answer! Your first question is something that worries me - my DL is about 28 - 28 1/2, but i use the "blank" modual of the MOAB -F5 as far as i remember. I tought that with it i'd have the needed DL, but when i measured it, it was about 26 1/2, so my arrows are about 28 inches. This was unpleasant surprise for me :D , but since i feel the bow comfortable i left it the way it was. The Gold Tip arrows say that are for 75-90# bows...,but here is almost impossibble to find other quality arrows and i'm forced to keep them. Since you say they can't do no harm, i'm OK with them. Never tried them with broadheads-i'm not a hunter and bowhunting is still not quite legal in Bulgaria (not to mention that i'm jobless now :( ) so i don't want to give money for useless equipment. And about the speed - i'll leave the dreams for speed for better times, when i'll have a speed bow :D

OK Alex, let's get on the same page with the draw length. How are you measuring for it? What is called True Draw is from the apex of the string at full draw to the deepest part of the grip. Is that how you are getting
26 1/2"? If so then you need to add 1 3/4" to that to come up with AMO draw length, which is how bows are marked. So maybe you're about 28 1/4"? Sound closer?

About the arrows, I have to apologize. I haven't looked at the hunting arrows on Gold Tip's website for a while and now I see the Vapors listed. Yours being a 300 means a .300" spine. Quite stiff for your setup, but with the circumstancs you have you should shoot them. It isn't going to hurt anything. You just might not get the accuracy out of them that something lighter spined would do. I mean, what's the ulternative, not shooting at all??? This is not an option is it?

If and when you can get new arrows or wish to then I would definitely drop down to Vapor 400 or some other 400 spined arrow. Frankly, at 50# you're pretty close to the top end of a .500" spined arrow. I'd love to say use them for the most speed you can get, but err on the side of stiff. This will allow you to raise the draw weight of the bow later on.

alex
09-09-2009, 03:23 PM
Thank you, Barry! I always learn something new and useful from you :) Absolutely right about the draw lenght! I wish i could take the right arrows but most of our dealers in the gun shops know nothing of archery (the only good one is closed) - in the nearest shop all the bows are 60# and all the arrows are only for up to 40# bows :D

NewNYBowhunter
09-22-2009, 09:14 PM
bfisher (Barry?)
Thanks for the reply on this you pose a good point. one of the points some people aren't considering so much is their "TRUE" comfort level instead of the macho all out, pull hard draw weight. I know I can pull over 70 lb of draw weight, but when you're out in the woods, just hiked in, or have been sitting or stalking or still hunting and after 5 or 6 hours you're too tired to pull your bow back to shoot it what was the sense of being and egomaniac?
I bought a Firecat so I could get the speed I wanted, shoot a flatter arrow, and be able to drop my draw weight as I got older, there's no shame in being accurate. But there is a responsibility to killing, and not wounding your animal
My local archery shop is going to be seeing me next week when I get re sighted when I drop my weight. I'll be cutting down to about 65# and I'll still shoot my 360, or 380 something grain arrows with a 30" draw length. So what if I shoot around 275-290 fps? I'll still be able to get pass-through shots on just about any big game on this continent. I'm not quite sure about the kinetic energy specs, I'm new to bow hunting, but I really don't think the animals know the difference right before their lights go out

Montalaar
09-22-2009, 11:20 PM
Alex, maybe you can get other points for it.

I shoot my GT Ultralight 300 with 145gr points.. ;)

bfisher
09-23-2009, 08:17 AM
bfisher (Barry?)
Thanks for the reply on this you pose a good point. one of the points some people aren't considering so much is their "TRUE" comfort level instead of the macho all out, pull hard draw weight. I know I can pull over 70 lb of draw weight, but when you're out in the woods, just hiked in, or have been sitting or stalking or still hunting and after 5 or 6 hours you're too tired to pull your bow back to shoot it what was the sense of being and egomaniac?
I bought a Firecat so I could get the speed I wanted, shoot a flatter arrow, and be able to drop my draw weight as I got older, there's no shame in being accurate. But there is a responsibility to killing, and not wounding your animal
My local archery shop is going to be seeing me next week when I get re sighted when I drop my weight. I'll be cutting down to about 65# and I'll still shoot my 360, or 380 something grain arrows with a 30" draw length. So what if I shoot around 275-290 fps? I'll still be able to get pass-through shots on just about any big game on this continent. I'm not quite sure about the kinetic energy specs, I'm new to bow hunting, but I really don't think the animals know the difference right before their lights go out

You are kind of a rare bird. Most people cannot see past their egos. I know I don't always say what people want to hear and sometimes my advice doesn't apply to everybody. I just try to use my 36 years of shooting compounds to help others use some common sense. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

As for kinetic energy? I have never worried about it since day one. The only time I have even checked it was 1999 when I shot a Golden Eagle Litespeed. That bow was producing 39 ft/lb of energy. I shot three deer that year. Two were complete pass throughs that went through like a hot knife through butter.

The third was a hard quartering away shot. That arrow entered the deer behind the last rib, penetrated and hit the offside shoulder bone, breaking that bone and bending the broadhead. The impact with the bone made the arrow bounce back till half of it was hanging out of the deer as he ran away. He went less than 100 yards and I saw him go down. By the way, it was a 315gr arrow shooting 237 fps, if I recall right. So much for needing tons of kinetic energy.