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View Full Version : Problems with M-Pro on a Jaguar



Bart
09-26-2009, 08:47 PM
Hello friends, new here and hope to hang out here some, get to know some of you. Having some problems with my new M-Pro Cams just installed and hoping to get some insight. Please forgive the lengthy post but the information was neccessary.

There is something definitely not right with my Jaguar bow that has just came back from Martin, repairing a defective Dynacam and installing new M-Pro Cam, limbs & strings. Now that I have it back, this bow is just not usable, it is full draw weight not hitting the let-off right up until I hit the wall. Been shooting all my life, and was used to a Darton Thunder-flite for many years, it having a very nice smooth round cam action. So itís not just that I went from a radical cam to a round cam. There is no smooth let-off, much less a noticeable let-off. It breaks right at the point I hit the back wall on the string, leaving me NO valley. After researching everything I could possibly find I have come to this conclusion.

After researching many bows and manuals I have only been able to find a cam & idler wheel similar to the ones installed on my bow on the 08í Leopard, all other bows seem to have a different looking M-Pro Cam and larger Idler Wheel. Out of the 08í bows the Saber & Bengal seem to be most similar in size to my Jaguar, both having the different looking M-Pro cam & larger idler wheel. The leopard is supposed to have the Mini M-Pro since it is a lighter duty bow, so not sure if my cam is a M-Pro or a Mini M-Pro? Was my version of the lynx light duty as well, to where it should take the lighter duty cams?


Pics of the M-Pro cam in all year manuals appear to be positioned different than my new bow setup. The hole in the cam where the string wraps around then hooks to the tab on the cam is almost parallel to the axle, where as my bow is approximately 1 ľ inches closer to the limb.

I also read a thread in here about the M-Pro timing. When I look down into where the string meets the cam, there is no sign of any groove showing.
ďwith the 08 mpro cam you need to have aprox. 3/8 to 1/2" of groove showing under the string to have it set to where it is most efficient. ď

I was also informed that I should be able to replace the modules without a press, yet the screws to the modules sit in between my limb not allowing me to remove the screws or module.

These facts and the technical info below lead me to believe my bow needs a different length of strings or possibly another cam setup. All I know is this bow is nothing like it was before I sent it in to be repaired. I have the bow at itís lowest possible setting and still doubt I will be able to shoot it in itís present condition, and opening day is here.

Comparing Axle & string lengths below things just do not add up. With the same cam, the only thing that should change the lengths is the differences in the A-A, so if my A-A is 1 Ĺ inches longer, my string and cable should also be 1 Ĺ inches longer. These numbers below just donít add up and my guess is I have the wrong length string, cable or both.

Saber & Bengal= A-A/32, String/88.5, Cable/33.5
Leopard= A-A/30, String/79.5, Cable/31.5
My Jaguar= A-A/32.5, String/86.5, Cable/33.5

This new cam setup had to fit a bow and these numbers just donít add up in any configuration. There should be some consistancy. Looking for some help here. Bow season is here and I have no bow to shoot. Thanks in advance.

RogerSr
09-26-2009, 10:04 PM
You have the M Pro Cam, not the mini m pro cam, some times you have to back the limb bolts out tell you can see day light through the barrel nuts so you can rotate the cam to take the screws out of the mods,as for the rest you may need to twest or untwest the cable to time the cam to change letoff.

alex
09-27-2009, 03:57 AM
Your cam is not "timed" corectly. I'll try to upload pictures of my 08 MOAB with the M-pro cam.I hope i'll manage to do the upload, because i've forgotten how to :o

Bart
09-27-2009, 05:42 AM
So I would need my cable string to be some where around an inch longer in order to get the groove to show about 1/2 inch. Now when I add an inch to the cable, it gives my string another inch, what effect will that have on limbs, draw weight etc.?

Bart

alex
09-27-2009, 09:33 AM
I haven't experience with string and cables lenght, but i think 1 inch is too much...Try first to untwist them a little, you're not so off, may be 1,5-2cm (don't want to turn it into inches, you can do it).

Bart
09-27-2009, 08:09 PM
No I'm thinking I need a total different set of string & cable. If you look at the comparison chart, the Saber & Bengal are only 1/2" shorter in A-A. So the length of the string and cable should be the same.

My bow is 1/2" longer so the string and cable should also be no more or less than 1/2" longer as well don't you think. If we are comparing the M-Pro setup on both the Bengal & Saber, my string should be 89" & cable 34"

The string on mine is 2" shorter, add the 1/2" missing from the A-A= 2 1/2" shorter, and since the cable is the same length, take in consideration the A-A it is in fact 1/2" shorter.

Hope you follow what I am saying, the numbers don't add up and I don't think a simple twist of the string will do the job. Not much to untwist on the cable and doubt I could twist the string enough to loose 2".

So am I making sense?

Montalaar
09-28-2009, 12:20 AM
Do i understand it right to the point that you will add some more AtA to your bow?

In this case you need to remember that your string is also the cable on the back side so if you want to add approx 1" AtA you will need to lenghten the string by more than 2.5" and the Yoke by 1". You see that those numbers will work! Further the Jaguar will only be deliviered with a Mini-MPro cam so that the string length will be a different there.

I just can aggree to you that the cable could be 0.5" to short.

Further you should consider that your bow is kind of older and that those pictures might not fit. All newers bows have a parallel limb design insted of a more conventional design as it is used on your jaguar so that those drawings wont help you much. They only thing that is important for you is the string groove that has to show up. If you will lenghten the cable a bit by untwisting you can give the cam more cable to show up this groove. Just try it.

I assume that you have the Mini-MPro on your bow. Check the Idler wheel and the Cam. There is no draw stop so it is an older. The Idler wheel is used for the MiniMPro.


Oh.. Alex, you have a cracked limb.

Montalaar
09-28-2009, 12:37 AM
I attached y picture for you. There you can see how your cam should be aligned. The red dot shows the position where your string should come of the cam approx. To achieve that you need to lengthen your cable or shorten your string a tad.

So put some twists in your string and untwist your cable to see if that will help.

alex
09-28-2009, 03:20 AM
Oh.. Alex, you have a cracked limb.

:eek: For a moment this scared me. I don't think it's cracked- this looks like a defect in the camo (darker on one side) The bow was like that since i've bought it.When i touch it i can feel absolutely no crack, it's smooth like the rest of the limb.Can it be a crack, which isn't yet to the surface? I hope not! :(

Montalaar
09-28-2009, 03:38 AM
Hey, seems as my skills in scaring people have gained a new level. :P

If you run with some whool or so over it and you feel nothing than everything is perfect. You can also try some Methanol/Ethanol and clean this part of the limb to see if there is something with it.

I would not shhot it but i have more possibilities to get a new limb than you... SO if you clean it and there is nothing than everything is okay. Just not a perfect dipping job. :)

alex
09-28-2009, 04:01 AM
I'm glad that i've helped to improve your skills ;)
I'll try to use the cloth, but as you know fingers are incredibly sensitive and i feel nothing.I'm not inclined to damage the camo more, but if there's any change i'll do it. I'm a little paranoid about my bow (gave about 700$ for it) and inspect it almost after every shot, so i hope it won't damage my face and eyes :cool: Don't want even to think about changing the limbs-this will be a task worthy of superhero :D

Montalaar
09-28-2009, 04:13 AM
Changing limbs is pretty simple once you have changed your strings and cables your own...

But i hope that everything is okay with the limb and it is just in the camo. From my own experience i know that such a thing can lead to problems in concentration while shooting. But maybe that is only me... :P

Bart
09-28-2009, 06:26 AM
Ok so I do have the Mini M-Pro? Not sure why Martin would replace my DynaCam with this, two totally different type of cams. I have 4 screws in my shoulder, thatís why I liked the aggressive Dyna-Cam, it let me shoot with less draw weight and the arrow jumped out of the bow. Right now I am pulling total weight draw until I almost hit the wall. Not sure I can even shoot this bow efficiently unless when I time the cam it smooths out and gives me some letoff. Maybe I'm miss informed but it's my understanding the Mini is for lighter duty bows & short draw lengths?

Ok Back to the problem at hand,
The cable currently, has hardly any twist too it, I'm thinking a cable with no twist might not be a good idea? Not even sure if I took out the twist if I would get enough length.
The string currently is wound too tight IMO, I may be wrong and correct me if I am, but a string can be wound too much.

So if I cant get 1/2" out of the cable and the string is obviously a bit too long, looks like I need a new cable/sting set

Bart
09-28-2009, 06:43 AM
Ya know I never would have thought I'd be here three days before Bow Season and no bow. After speaking to two different bow shops in my area about my defective Dyna-Cam, I elected to send it to Martin to be sure it was done right the first time and have it back and ready to hunt. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but after all the information gathered, clearly the strings are the wrong length and the quick fix was to twist the daylights out of the string. Still trying to figure out why they converted it to the Mini instead of another cam similar to the Dyna-Cam.
I don't mean to complain but shoot I'm supposed to be in the woods in 3 days.:mad:
here is a larger pic of the cam and string.

Montalaar
09-28-2009, 06:48 AM
The MPro cam is the ancestor of the Dynacam so it is something like the same 'cam type'. The standard letoff on the MPro cam is 80% and if you will tune your cam until it it is 'in time' you will find out that it is a great cam to shoot. The MProcam is just a smaller version of the MPro cam. This means you will get shorter draw lengths out of it but a higher draw weight out of the same limb. Probably you need to shoot the small version but that depends on your drawlength.

A cable with very less twists is no problem. Used one myself for around a year. But you are right when you come to the point that a string can have too many twists in it. One thing you can try is to take lengthen the cable as far as possible and have a look at the cam timing. Then remove the string and put in some twists. After doing so reinstall it and check again the cam timing.

Then tell us what happened or post us some pics so we can give you another advice.

Bart
09-28-2009, 07:38 AM
I will try taking all twist out of the cable, but I really don't want as much of a twist I have in my string now. Shoot and I've yet to add the peep & silencers.

Check the pics out & tell me if you think I should add even more twist to the string.

Thanks for all your help and advice friends. I'm hoping to get ahold of Geremy at Martin, since he is the one that serviced my bow and see what can be done as well.

When I get it right, I will be sure and post the solution to my problem.

alex
09-28-2009, 10:32 AM
Changing limbs is pretty simple once you have changed your strings and cables your own...

But i hope that everything is okay with the limb and it is just in the camo. From my own experience i know that such a thing can lead to problems in concentration while shooting. But maybe that is only me... :P

I meant not the work (i've worked on more complicated machines), but going to the shop and explaining, their refusal to help, calling Martin, dealing with them, sending the limbs to the other side of the planet, waiting for the new ones, dealing with our customs and paying for the fun :D

P.S. Bart, hope everything will be ok and you'll have your bow fixed.Good luck!

Montalaar
09-28-2009, 12:30 PM
I would even recommend to make one or to knots into the string if that would help you to get a bow that will be shootable during your season. Knots are no good solution at all but they are a solution if nothing else will work.

brushrat
09-28-2009, 02:42 PM
Ya know I never would have thought I'd be here three days before Bow Season and no bow. After speaking to two different bow shops in my area about my defective Dyna-Cam, I elected to send it to Martin to be sure it was done right the first time and have it back and ready to hunt. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but after all the information gathered, clearly the strings are the wrong length and the quick fix was to twist the daylights out of the string. Still trying to figure out why they converted it to the Mini instead of another cam similar to the Dyna-Cam.
I don't mean to complain but shoot I'm supposed to be in the woods in 3 days.:mad:
here is a larger pic of the cam and string.

Don't know if the cam you have is a full size mpro cam or a mini?? I am not familiar with the mini. But just keep in mind that if it is a mini then the 3/8 to 1/2" groove showing may not apply? That is the setting for the full size Mpro cam.

Bart
09-28-2009, 02:48 PM
Well I talked to Martin, (Geremy) I'm told that the only cam that will fit the Jaguar is the Mini M-Pro. They changed the limbs to match the Mini M-Pro. So why can't you change the limbs to match another cam?

As far as timing I was told there is no timing to solo cams and that it won't make a difference whether I rotate the cam or not.

Ok I am no tech but common sense tells me, you rotate the cam, you get more use of the cam.

Needless to say I'm quite pissed!

alex
09-28-2009, 03:08 PM
Bart, can you put a draw stop on this cam? May be it'll help...And try to play a little with the string and cable.Too bad i can't help more, but this whole story is beyond my modest bow knowledge.I can only advise you not to invest more money for new strings - they won't help. :(

Montalaar
09-29-2009, 12:33 AM
Try out what we have told you and then tell us what you experienced.

SOme bows cannot be used with the MPro-Cam, that is right. And everything depends on the configuration the users needs.

Montalaar
09-29-2009, 12:35 AM
Don't know if the cam you have is a full size mpro cam or a mini?? I am not familiar with the mini. But just keep in mind that if it is a mini then the 3/8 to 1/2" groove showing may not apply? That is the setting for the full size Mpro cam.

It is a mini and if you take a look at the picture i posted you will see that this rule also applies. This is why i painted a red mark where the string should leave the cam.

Bart
09-29-2009, 07:23 AM
Ok I've managed to move the cam atleast close to what has been suggested. I'm thinking I moved it just a tad too much, Let me know what you think.

I first took most of the twist out of the cable. Since I was hoping to lengthen the cable, I figured it be best to shorten the string, so moved the string up to the second -1/2" peg. Took about 5 twists out of the string before looping back on the new peg. Pictures show the outcome. It seems a little better, but maybe you just can't interchange new to old. But since this is the only fix they say they have for my Jaguar, I guess I try to live with the limbs not matching the riser camo and the hard draw.

Yet to shoot the bow and will post in here how it tunes and shoots.

Special thanks to Dawg at Gander for helping me since I have no bow press.

Thanks for all the help.
Shoot Straight!
Bart

Bart
09-29-2009, 07:28 AM
Oh one last question.

The split strings on the cable, one appears to be tighter than the other from the cable guard, thus possible twist in limbs? Any special trics to balancing them out other than loosen the bow and play with them?

Thanks friends

Bart

davydtune
09-29-2009, 07:44 AM
Oh one last question.

The split strings on the cable, one appears to be tighter than the other from the cable guard, thus possible twist in limbs? Any special trics to balancing them out other than loosen the bow and play with them?

Thanks friends

Bart

Lay an arrow shaft up against the side of the idler wheel and note the gap between the shaft and the bow string. If the shaft parallels the bow string then you are good to go and there is no lean. If the gap gets bigger or smaller you'll need to twist one side of the split yoke or the other to get the wheel to not lean. I'm guessing they adjusted it at the factory and that's why one is tighter than the other?


Oh, the cam orientation looks good.

Spiker
09-29-2009, 08:25 AM
Lay an arrow shaft up against the side of the idler wheel and note the gap between the shaft and the bow string. If the shaft parallels the bow string then you are good to go and there is no lean. If the gap gets bigger or smaller you'll need to twist one side of the split yoke or the other to get the wheel to not lean. I'm guessing they adjusted it at the factory and that's why one is tighter than the other?


Oh, the cam orientation looks good.


...just a note - - - the cam lean should be checked at full draw and adjusted accordingly.

brushrat
09-29-2009, 10:35 AM
...just a note - - - the cam lean should be checked at full draw and adjusted accordingly.

i know you can adjust the idler lean by twisting one leg of the cable yoke, but i'm not sure you can do anything with any cam lean, can you? What could you adjust there? thanks:confused:

Montalaar
09-29-2009, 11:05 AM
You can only adjust the Idler lean. But that was a big problem last year as most people did not know how to do so. The lower MPro Cam does not need any fixing at all.. beside it is impossible.

Spiker
09-29-2009, 02:02 PM
Sorry - I meant the Idler lean not Cam lean...
...mis-phrased...

Bart
10-05-2009, 08:33 AM
Ok guys, I said I would give you an update on the outcome. First a big thanks to all that helped with their suggestions, especially since I got no help from Martin techs nor did they ever answer my emails.

I was able to untwist and lengthen the cable by about half an inch, & countered that by moving the string to the second post, shortening it half an inch. This put my cam in what was determined to be the correct timing(3/8 - 1/2 groove showing on Cam. ).

Switched back to the F-5 Mod to gain an inch.

Adjusted the Idler by twisting the split strings (dead on now)

Tiller is set dead on to the axles by looping a tite string from one axle to the other.

I'm starting to think you just can't switch out these cams and limbs. It just does not feel right, a bit on the noisy side, the arrow seems sluggish and can't get a smooth flight to save my life. Wishing now I would have fugured a way to repair my Dyna-Cam.

I am shooting Cabela's Hunter Extreme 55/70's 28 1/2" Blazers, with 85 grn tips, FOC is 6 inches.. Martin mount Whisker Biscuit, Bow is set to 61 lbs. , I rotated my nock, blazers clear cable easily, noch is dead on square & centered with riser bolt slot, using D Loop. Using Tru Ball Copperhead Xtra release. (love this release)

Well if nothing else I hope this thread may have helped somone else.

Open for any suggestions.

Once again thanks for all your help.

Bart

Montalaar
10-05-2009, 11:45 AM
If nothing will help you might try to get your Dynacam back as it might be sold somewhere. I know that my pro shop still keeps some of them for the older bows so there might be someone in the states who will sell you some?

Are you registered at Archerytalk.com? If so you can post up a 'want to buy' in the classifieds.

Bart
10-05-2009, 08:10 PM
When I sent my bow to them they changed out the limbs as well, so I doubt I could even put a Dyna-Cam back on this bow unless I found the old limbs too.

Yea it now only looks weird, it shoots weird. When I took the bow to Gander Mountain for the use of the bow press, they all laughed at it, since the riser is green camo and the limbs are brown camo. :(

Montalaar
10-06-2009, 01:28 AM
Does it matter to you what other think about that? Who cares about that? If you do not like it then buy spray paint and do your own job. Or find out who can put a new camo film onto your riser that will match your new limbs.

Bart
10-06-2009, 08:09 AM
Think you're missing the point.
I had a good looking, good shooting bow. The cam became defective. Under warranty their fix was to replace the limbs & cams. ONLY through the help in here did I even get it set up correctly, yet it still shoots poorly and nothing like it used to before the cam went bad. I could overlook the missmatch in colors if the fix worked and the bow shot well. I can't believe anyone here would be willing to repaint their bow under these circumstances, especially if the thing was out of wack as this bow apparently is.
So obviously, it being bow season, the outcome of my bow & unable to purchase a new bow, I'm not happy, as would anyone.
I plan to see if Martin really stands behind their bows since this fix obviously did not work. I will post the outcome.

Shoot Straight guys <|---------<<
Bart