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JohnnyThunder
10-28-2009, 07:15 AM
My Saber has a 30" draw. I suspect that I might benefit from a slightly shorter draw. How do I know for sure what the proper draw length for me would be ? Is there a way that I should measure it ?

bfisher
10-28-2009, 07:44 AM
There are several ways to get close. One is to do what is referred to as the wingspan method. Standing with your back to a wall raise your arms oustretched to your side to shoulder height. Measure fingertip to finger tip and divide this by 2.5. (I like to start with one finger touching a corner). This should get you close. If you are somewhere between two numbers then go the short route.

Once you've done this you can check it out by drawing the bow and have someone take a pic of you at full draw and anchored. The nock of your arrow should be vertically below your eye, using an imaginary line.

Have the person taking pictures of you do so from the side facing your front and back (fullength). Then also from the rear. With weight distributed evenly on both feet the body should form a "T" from the shoulders down to the feet with no apparent leaning back. If leaning back then possibly the draw length is still too long or too much draw weight. Also, the drawing arm should be approximately parallel to the arrow. If the drawing arm is lower at the elbow then you are stretched out too far and may need to shorten the release and/or shorten the draw a bit. If the elbow is a little high then this is acceptable. If using a wrist strap release the joint where the index finger joins the hand should be no farther back than to the hollow right under the ear lobe.

If possible one from an elevated position (ladder) behind you. In this case the drawing should, again, be in a straight line with the arrow.

Play with these ideas and when you think you have it right go on Archery Talk and see what Nut&Bolts has to say about it. He's the real guru with this stuff.

Let us know what you find out.

oldbutnewagain
10-28-2009, 09:30 AM
Best directions I've found.

I anchor with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth (per Fred Asbell). Does that affect the calculation?

alex
10-28-2009, 09:41 AM
What bfisher wrote is the best method, but if you prefer something simple take an arrow put it on your chest with your hands holding it in front of you as far as you can-where the tip of middle fingers is is your DL. Other method is almost like this but the arrow isn't on the chest but on your neck under the Adam's apple (if this is the correct english name :D ) and you hold without streching too much.

bfisher
10-28-2009, 10:31 AM
Best directions I've found.

I anchor with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth (per Fred Asbell). Does that affect the calculation?

Having shot fingers many years ago I can relate to this. Most often when shooting fingers you have to add about 3/4" to 1" to the above calculation. This is due to the larger radius the string makes wrapping around 3 fingers vs the sharp bend made by a release.

bfisher
10-28-2009, 10:38 AM
I would add this to my first post. After a person becomes proficient and knows what he is doing if he is so inclined to find his optimum draw length here is how I know to do it:

When shoota target you draw and aim the bow at a bullseye. The sight pin or dot will tend to move around on a target. It's impossible to hold it dead still. If the draw length is too long the pin will tend to move around slow, but never settle down. If the draw length is too short the pin will move in the same pattern, but the movement will be faster (jerky). Soemwehere in between these two extremes the pin will settle down and aim much better with smaller movement. As little as 1/8" can often make a marked difference.

Again, this is something found out after a lot of shooting. Sometimes many years. A lot depends on just how accurate you want to become. It's a never ending process of tweaking.

JohnnyThunder
10-29-2009, 08:43 AM
Once you've done this you can check it out by drawing the bow and have someone take a pic of you at full draw and anchored. The nock of your arrow should be vertically below your eye, using an imaginary line.


The nock of my arrow at full draw comes right to the corner of my mouth which is basically under my eye. So it sounds to me like 30" draw is correct then ?

bfisher
10-29-2009, 08:47 AM
The nock of my arrow at full draw comes right to the corner of my mouth which is basically under my eye. So it sounds to me like 30" draw is correct then ?

Could be. Did you measure your wingspan? How tall are you?

JohnnyThunder
10-29-2009, 08:50 AM
Could be. Did you measure your wingspan? How tall are you?

I didn't measure it, but I'm about 6'2"-6'3" something like that.

EneseNox73
10-30-2009, 11:15 AM
There are other options if you want 911S-like performance 170-190 HP using an early engine as a starting point. But for 210-230 HP kind of numbers, see my post above.

JohnnyThunder
10-30-2009, 04:08 PM
There are other options if you want 911S-like performance 170-190 HP using an early engine as a starting point. But for 210-230 HP kind of numbers, see my post above.

what ? :confused:

Parashooter
10-30-2009, 11:44 PM
Ok, I understand all these...(including the 911S bit, but I'll keep my 385HP MR2 just the same ;-) )

...those tricks get you in the ballpark, but I'm still not too clear on the left arm - the guy that set me up when I bought my bow set me at 29", telling me my left arm should be bent at the elbow...

I've been struggling to get decent groups, just found a 'how to use the sights' last night and it was "DUH" ...(I was working it like the peep rear and post front on my rifles, not centering the peep and sight ring)

But now I'm feeling like I need more draw length. to get the peep close enough to my eye to see the sight ring, I'm bending my left elbow significantly.


Pete

Montalaar
10-31-2009, 12:41 AM
To bend or not to bend is something individual.

I shoot my Target bow with a straight arm as this gives you more accuracy in my eyes. Your arm is much more steady your sight pin will less move and your follow through will be much better. Also your whole backtension can work better.

I have to shoot my Warthog with my left arm bent significantly. I know that this works but i feel that i do not have enough tension to shoot properly.

bfisher
10-31-2009, 07:07 AM
Pete,

You don't need the peep closer to your eye to center the sight ring. That's one reason there are different size peeps. You don't bend your bow arm at the elbow to bring the string closer to your eye. In fact, you don't have to center the sight ring in your peep. It's nice to help control hand torque, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Which leads us to the bent elbow controversy. I learned a long time ago to shoot with a straight, relaxed bow arm; bowhand turned out to about 45 degrees and as relaxed as can be. The idea is to keep the arm bones aligned so the arm muscles don't have to work hard to keep the bow "out there". I guess that's why I don't subscribe to the bent arm theory--it makes the muscles work. Just understand that shooting bent or straight may require a slight change in the bow's draw length.

Straight arm, bent arm. You have to try both ways to see which you like.
Same goes for the peep sight. If you shoot a peep with a tube you can drill it out if it's too small. If using a tubeless peep then G5, Fletcher, and Specialty Archery all make good ones with sizes from about 1/16" up to 5/16".

Parashooter
10-31-2009, 08:43 AM
Thanks guys.... Montalar, I also prefer a straight-arm, it just feels better to me... Holding a bent elbow is a bit more wobbly, but not something that won't improve with practice. - But, the steadier straight arm will get steadier yet with the same practice so...
I also shoot service rifle, I'm used to standing holding up a 17 pound rifle for 20+ minutes, so seeing so much wobble at such close range tells me something's not right with my hold.

Bfisher, I guess I should have fleshed out the details a little more...It was late, I was tired. In getting the peep closer, there was also the 'duh!' moment where I realized that bending the left much more would get the peep closer, but also let me stand up straighter, right arm locked back better.

What I was doing was drawing, with a straight arm, and when I hit the 'stop' I was leaning my head to the peep. Then I started playing with bending my elbow, moving the drawn bow back, to move the peep to me, which gave the realization that my stance was improving....

Well, I guess I should just change the modules and try it huh? I think I have a couple inches before my arrows are too short - maybe I'll grab some cheap ones and leave them long - good idea/bad idea???

thanks guys!

Pete

bfisher
10-31-2009, 12:39 PM
Now it sounds like you want to make the draw length longer. I don't know if that's the answer or not, but you certainly have nothing to lose by doing so. It's an easy swap (modules) and it'll let you feel for yourself what you think fits. I'd do it if you have the modules. Just take into consideration you may have to change arrow spines somewhere along the way. We can help with that, too.

Parashooter
10-31-2009, 03:33 PM
I'm going to swap modules out toorrow (only have one for a longer draw) and see what happens... Right now I'm set at 29" (Wildcat from Dick's...) and have modules to 30"...although I kinda feel like I want 2" or 3" more.

we'll see.

thanks again!.... next questions - but that's another post gotta keep on topic!

Pete

Parashooter
10-31-2009, 03:57 PM
Hrm.... well I just looked at the bow, looks like it's not so easy to change the modules, both screws are hidden under the limb.

Next, looking at the manual, it says the 1/2" cable adjustment pins are "Higher number shorter draw"... so on pin #1 with the F-5 I would have 29" DL, but my bow is set on pin #2... 28.5" DL... that right?

I'm going to look at the charts now and see what my options are, I have an F-6 and F-7 to try... on top of changing that pin setting

damn, I'm gonna have to build a press now... :-) just needed an excuse!

Montalaar
11-01-2009, 01:35 AM
You may want to grab your cable and pull it around to remove the module screws. But if so you will have no excuse for a bow press....

So better build your press :P

bfisher
11-01-2009, 06:40 PM
Pete,

May as well do it this way. Back the limb bolts off about 10 turns each. Watch through the barrel nut where the limb bolts thread into. By the time you see some daylight through them you should be able to slip the string off the idler or cam which will allow you to rotate the cam and get at those screws.

While you're this far you may as well put the string back on the #1 post. This will help you the next time you have to get at the screws as it puts the cam in a different orientation. You may just get away with squeezing the cable toward the riser next time.

As you suspect, it sounds like the bow is set for 28.5". The F5 should be
29". F6 should be an inch longer and so forth.

Keep us posted.

Parashooter
11-01-2009, 07:48 PM
Brilliant!.... I didn't feel like searching for the big Allen wrench to undo the limb bolts, so I ran straps around the cable and limb to pull and hold the cable (Motorcycle handlebar tiedown loops, gives a slipknot that I could pull around with half the effort, and stays tight just by holding onto it)

I changed the F-5 for the F-6 without moving the 1-2 pin, so I've now got 29.5" DL.... Nocked an arrow and drew, NOW it feels good! Tomorrow hopefully I've got time between work and committee meetings (2nd amendment activist...) to get in a few shots and see how it feels.


My Next problem is the fletching hitting the cable - My bow has a straight, carbon rod, and a large white nylon(teflon?) cable slide... The fletching hits the cable at rest, so presumably hits on firing... also, the white guide block is a good bit in my line of sight when drawn - a bit annoying/distracting... The first bow I got had a much smaller black plastic block, but on a bent metal rod (first one I got home and while peeling price tags off felt cracks in both limbs! 5-6" long! )

I was planning to start a new thread on this though...

thanks yet again gentlemen!

Pete

bfisher
11-02-2009, 08:26 AM
Pete,

One problem solved. Now on to the next one. Vanes hitting the cables. Maybe your rest is set too far inside center. For starters check the top idler wheel to see if there is any cam lean. If so then straighten this out by twisting the yoke on the right side of the top limb (RH bow). Might have to dig out that Allen wrench anyway. Hold an arrow on the side of the idler wheel parallel to the string. You should have the same gap the whole length of the arrow.

Not so sure about the Saber, but the rest should be set so the arrow is slightly to the left of the center of the riser (the cam is to the left). Probably about 1/8" or so is where the rest should be. You using Blazer vanes? High profile means less cable clearance. Maybe a different slide that pulls the cables closer to the rod. Maybe change to a lower profile vane.

Although Blazers are good vanes they do introduce other problems sometimes on certain bows.

If you are paper tuning the bow do so with a bare shaft. Get it straight and then try with a fletched arrow for comparison. Try lipstick or powder on the vane you suspect is hitting. If it's hitting the cable you should be able to see where the lipstick is getting rubbed off. Uh-oh, if you're using a Whisker Bisquit then forget the lip-stick. Better let the wife know what you're doing. She might think you're going weird on her.

Just a couple ideas.

Parashooter
11-03-2009, 06:56 AM
Pete,

One problem solved. Now on to the next one. Vanes hitting the cables. Maybe your rest is set too far inside center. For starters check the top idler wheel to see if there is any cam lean. If so then straighten this out by twisting the yoke on the right side of the top limb (RH bow). Might have to dig out that Allen wrench anyway. Hold an arrow on the side of the idler wheel parallel to the string. You should have the same gap the whole length of the arrow.

Not so sure about the Saber, but the rest should be set so the arrow is slightly to the left of the center of the riser (the cam is to the left). Probably about 1/8" or so is where the rest should be. You using Blazer vanes? High profile means less cable clearance. Maybe a different slide that pulls the cables closer to the rod. Maybe change to a lower profile vane.

Although Blazers are good vanes they do introduce other problems sometimes on certain bows.

If you are paper tuning the bow do so with a bare shaft. Get it straight and then try with a fletched arrow for comparison. Try lipstick or powder on the vane you suspect is hitting. If it's hitting the cable you should be able to see where the lipstick is getting rubbed off. Uh-oh, if you're using a Whisker Bisquit then forget the lip-stick. Better let the wife know what you're doing. She might think you're going weird on her.

Just a couple ideas.

LOL!!! I've actually got my own makeup!.. lipstick, nailpolish etc.... the stuff is great for marking things!!! (Nailpolish is good for filling markings on machinery so they can be read, lipstick just like for archery to find where things rub)

Saber? no, Wildcat (Jaguar with Mini M-pro) and the arrows I have are easton carbon raider, the vane are whatever easton put on... Until I'm a little more comfortable with my setup and skill I'm not going to spend a lot on good arrows - since I'm aiming for the center of the target I'm getting them scraped up on each other trying to get in the same hole.

I already moved the rest away from the riser a bit, I had to move the sight SOO far to the right I knew something wasn't right (and the guy that set it up was supposed to be "very good"...right).

I've just gotten a KazAway rest, so I'll have to toy with that (just the cheapy flipper rest now) for the centering.

More to come later! time to go to work!

Thanks again!
Pete

bfisher
11-03-2009, 07:20 AM
Pete,

Sorry about the mix-up in bows. Doesn't matter a whole lot. Set up and basic tuning are still the same. I still haven't done anything with a Jag, but most bows today the rest will be mounted so that if you place an arrow on it and measure from the sight window to the center of the arrow you should get somewhere between 3/4" and 7/8". Here again, this is just a starting point and it may have to be moved to get a good tune.

I know you didn't ask, but don't get too concerned if the sight pins line up slightly outside center. That means left of the string as eyeballed from the rear (RH bow). It's quite common, in fact almost the norm for any bow with a cable guard/slide combo.

Something else I may as well say is that if you don't already have one go to www.huntersfriend.com and download a copy of Easton's Tuning Guide. There is a wealth of info in it to help you with setup and several methods of tuning. You'll get an education and learn some of the lingo. I still use one and I've been at this 36 years.

Keep us posted, bud.

Parashooter
11-03-2009, 08:44 PM
Pete,

<SNIP>
I know you didn't ask, but don't get too concerned if the sight pins line up slightly outside center. That means left of the string as eyeballed from the rear (RH bow). It's quite common, in fact almost the norm for any bow with a cable guard/slide combo.

Something else I may as well say is that if you don't already have one go to www.huntersfriend.com and download a copy of Easton's Tuning Guide. There is a wealth of info in it to help you with setup and several methods of tuning. You'll get an education and learn some of the lingo. I still use one and I've been at this 36 years.

Keep us posted, bud.

Hrm... That explains a lot!.... my issue is that the sight was as far RIGHT as I could go (arrow striking right on target), I had nudged the rest a bit left, and that improved it, got the new rest on, have to attach the string/slide and adjust it and I think I'll be OK (once I play with the DL and get it tweaked)

I had the rest setup so the arrow was parallel to the riser (per the manual) but I think with your suggestion of 3/4-7/8 out will get the fletching clear too.

the Easton guide.... great suggestion! although I couldn't find it at huntersfriend, I did find a couple versions elsewhere (<http://www.archery-engineering.co.za/downloads.htm> which has a LOT of articles!) I'll read that tomorrow!

Thanks yet again!!!!!

Pete

JohnnyThunder
11-08-2009, 03:58 PM
Next, looking at the manual, it says the 1/2" cable adjustment pins are "Higher number shorter draw"... so on pin #1 with the F-5 I would have 29" DL, but my bow is set on pin #2... 28.5" DL... that right?


OK now you guys have got me totally confused. My bow is on pin #1 with the F-5 so if I understand you correctly its 29" correct ?

But I was told when I got the bow at Bass Pro Shops that it was DL 30".

And now that I think about it, when I measure my arrow, not counting the arrow head it measures 29 1/4" nock to insert.

So really whats the drawlength ?

Also, at first I was thinking it would be good for it to be shorter, but there was a chart at the archery range I went to today that showed the proper form as relates to draw length, and there was a picture of full draw with too short, too long, and correct draw lengths -- well now I'm thinking my draw length is too short.

When I'm at full draw and anchored my left arm is a bent, I think I could go an inch possibly two inches longer and still have a bit of bend.

What do you think ?

bfisher
11-08-2009, 06:09 PM
OK now you guys have got me totally confused. My bow is on pin #1 with the F-5 so if I understand you correctly its 29" correct ?

But I was told when I got the bow at Bass Pro Shops that it was DL 30".

And now that I think about it, when I measure my arrow, not counting the arrow head it measures 29 1/4" nock to insert.

So really whats the drawlength ?

Also, at first I was thinking it would be good for it to be shorter, but there was a chart at the archery range I went to today that showed the proper form as relates to draw length, and there was a picture of full draw with too short, too long, and correct draw lengths -- well now I'm thinking my draw length is too short.

When I'm at full draw and anchored my left arm is a bent, I think I could go an inch possibly two inches longer and still have a bit of bend.

What do you think ?

Johnny,

To make it short and sweet I'd suggest getting on Archery Talk and doing a search on shooting form and/or draw length. There is one guy on there called Nut&Bolts that is so good at this, with pictures and all. Look up some of his posts. You can also go to www.huntersfriend.com and look in their technical section for a good explaination on draw length.

I most often use the wingspan method of determining one's draw length. It doesn't always work jsut so so, but gets you in the ball park. And I am one of those who do not subscribe to shooting with a bent elbow. I like a straight arm, but not locked at the elbow. Bent or not bent is always up for debate, but this should never make more than an inch difference in what draw length the bow is to fit you.

As for the length of your arrow? This has nothing to do with draw length. You could have a bow set up properly for you and it might have a 26" draw, but you could still shoot arrows 32" long, or you could shoot 24" arrows. The arrow length is determined by other factors, but draw length is not one of them. The only thing that is important about arrow length is that it be long enough that you don't draw it past the rest when you draw the bow.

As for your bow being set at 29"? Don't take it for granted that on #1 pin and F5 module this is so just because the charts say so. You have to physically measure the bow at full draw to see what it is. Many bows do not measure what the charts say because they aren't set so when they are assembled.

Parashooter
11-08-2009, 10:37 PM
FINALLY I got out to shoot!!! (busy, weather, etc...) let's see, where did I leave off??? ah...

I changed out the F-5 for F-6 module, didn't get the string slack enough to switcth the 1-2 pin, so I'm supposedly now at 29.5.

Shooting this afternoon feels SO much better! MUCH steadier on hold, MUCH more comfortable-upright posture

Results???...... 4 arrows in an inch at 20yards!!!!! damn!

I'm thinking I'm going to try the F-7, and/or getting the string onto the #1 pin to try it at an alleged 30.0 and 30.5 (yep, I still felt like I could use a little more)

Now I just need to get this new rest figured out (hitting low and left).... I know I have to double-check the tiller, with a string across the axles, since I know it's set "square" to the shooting string now...

Do I just raise the rest a touch, or better off moving the D-ring down??? (I've got a metal D loop that I can just loosen the screws and move) I've got a brass nock on top of the loop as a locator in case it moves, so that would be just as easy.

Oh yes! another thing I noticed with the longer draw - My follow through is much better, before as soon as the shot let off my left arm would swing away, a result of having the elbow bent and having to push out on the bow... Now I'm getting a proper follow-through, hearing the hit before the bow moves out of line.

You guys have been so much help so far.... If you can do this now for my form I'll be winning meets in no time!!!! LOL!

Pete

bfisher
11-09-2009, 06:43 AM
FINALLY I got out to shoot!!! (busy, weather, etc...) let's see, where did I leave off??? ah...

I changed out the F-5 for F-6 module, didn't get the string slack enough to switcth the 1-2 pin, so I'm supposedly now at 29.5.

Shooting this afternoon feels SO much better! MUCH steadier on hold, MUCH more comfortable-upright posture

Results???...... 4 arrows in an inch at 20yards!!!!! damn!

I'm thinking I'm going to try the F-7, and/or getting the string onto the #1 pin to try it at an alleged 30.0 and 30.5 (yep, I still felt like I could use a little more)

Now I just need to get this new rest figured out (hitting low and left).... I know I have to double-check the tiller, with a string across the axles, since I know it's set "square" to the shooting string now...

Do I just raise the rest a touch, or better off moving the D-ring down??? (I've got a metal D loop that I can just loosen the screws and move) I've got a brass nock on top of the loop as a locator in case it moves, so that would be just as easy.

Oh yes! another thing I noticed with the longer draw - My follow through is much better, before as soon as the shot let off my left arm would swing away, a result of having the elbow bent and having to push out on the bow... Now I'm getting a proper follow-through, hearing the hit before the bow moves out of line.

You guys have been so much help so far.... If you can do this now for my form I'll be winning meets in no time!!!! LOL!

Pete

Pete,

In time I would suggest getting rid of the metal loop. It doesn't happen often, but I've seen instances of the string breaking right at the top of the loop because of the constant sharp bending there. Most often with little to no warning, so beware. I'd say it's OK to use one to find where your loop should be located, but wouldn't make it a long range habit.

Another thing they do is rob your bow of quite a bit of speed. Same goes for brass nock sets. Speed might not be that much of an issue for you, but why not get all you can out of what you have? They also have a tendency to wear the jaws of the release making them rough. If your hell bent on using a loop then change to a string loop at some future date.

So far I think you're doing fairly well playing around with the draw length. Tinkering is the way you find out what works best for you. As you are finding out, when you get the draw length optimized for you the aiming process is easier and more solid. That's ultimately how you tell where it should be.