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brushrat
11-05-2009, 09:10 PM
this is driving me nuts! shot all day today shooting a 28" gold tip hunter xt (55-75) bareshaft with 3 fletched arrows of the same (2" duravanes....and 100gr. target points). The bareshaft , no mater what i did ,shot aprox. 6-10" right and slightly lower than my fletched arrows at 30yds. (also ,it always landed tail left) . That shows a weak spine according to everything iv'e read. I moved my dropaway rest all the way left (a little at a time) then all the way to the right, it still impacted right every time. Not once did it go left .

I'm only set at 52Lbs. (2 1/2 turns out) ......surely those 55-75's are not too weak for 52 lbs. with an Mpro cam. ???????????

Can anybody tell me what the h___ (heck) is going on? thanks:eek::confused::eek:

timtim146
11-06-2009, 07:23 AM
I dont really know why its doing that bud id suggest centering ur drop away with ur center shot then just adjusting ur sight to the right.

RLW
11-06-2009, 07:39 AM
I'm certainly not an expert, but I think shooting compounds with release you can sometimes get the opposite reaction to what is "normal" on bare shaft tuning. (is 30yds a long way to expect clean bare shaft flight??)
Actually had that happen to me with a compound/finger release, where I was getting "righthand" reactions with my "lefthand" shooting, both paper tuning and bare shaft tuning.

My last bow shot almost perfect bullet holes thru paper, and arrows flew great, but frustrated to heck out of me attempting get any thing consistent w/bare shafts. This time w/my Bengal I only paper tuned........fld pts and broadheads are both hitting where I aim, so I'm good with it.

Downloaded a trial copy of "Software for Archers" the other day http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/ and had my Bengal loaded in there.......just pulled it up, adjusted lbs and arrow to your post and it does show that Gold Tip XTH 5575 being pretty stiff.
FYI: program shows the XTH 3555 being slightly weak, but closer spined & 5fps faster (calc'd 258)

Maybe try a 125gr fld point on the 5575 and see if that makes it better or worse??.......if it is actually stiff, that should pull it closer together

brushrat
11-06-2009, 08:38 AM
I'm certainly not an expert, but I think shooting compounds with release you can sometimes get the opposite reaction to what is "normal" on bare shaft tuning. (is 30yds a long way to expect clean bare shaft flight??)
Actually had that happen to me with a compound/finger release, where I was getting "righthand" reactions with my "lefthand" shooting, both paper tuning and bare shaft tuning.

My last bow shot almost perfect bullet holes thru paper, and arrows flew great, but frustrated to heck out of me attempting get any thing consistent w/bare shafts. This time w/my Bengal I only paper tuned........fld pts and broadheads are both hitting where I aim, so I'm good with it.

Downloaded a trial copy of "Software for Archers" the other day http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/ and had my Bengal loaded in there.......just pulled it up, adjusted lbs and arrow to your post and it does show that Gold Tip XTH 5575 being pretty stiff.
FYI: program shows the XTH 3555 being slightly weak, but closer spined & 5fps faster (calc'd 258)

Maybe try a 125gr fld point on the 5575 and see if that makes it better or worse??.......if it is actually stiff, that should pull it closer together

good information. From everything iv'e ever heard, when bare shafts hit rt. of fletched arrows that they are spined too weak, so i never even tryed adding heavier points. Hey, what the heck i'll give that a try, what do i have to lose. And if that shows an improvement ,i might tightning my limb bolts down a turn (from 52 to 55lbs) and see if that further improves it. Thanks

bfisher
11-06-2009, 08:45 AM
Read RLW's first sentence. This is right in Easton's Tuning Guide; next to last paragraph on page 13.

Your arrows may be acting stiff. I've had the same thing myself. When bare shaft tuning always take care of the vertical flight first (nocking point). Get the arrow level. Then do the horizontal.

With some carbon arrows you have to be careful, too. Sometimes spine deviation can make an arrow plane off. If the shaft is shooting to the right, as you say, try turning the arrow 180 degrees and see if it goes left. If it does then the shaft has inconsistent spine.

My gut is telling me that your arrows are acting stiff. Try adding 1/2 turn to the limbs to see if it helps. OH yeah, do the nocking point first.

Comment to RLW; Tuning a bare shaft to 30 yards is quite acceptable if your form is consistent. I've got mine out to 40 right now. They're planing about 3" high at that, but that's a fur piece for me and bare shafts. 30 yards is dead nuts with fletched arrows.

RLW
11-06-2009, 09:16 AM
Read RLW's first sentence.........
The "I'm certainly not a expert" part :D


I would like to hear how this works out.

Rarely tried bare shaft tuning past 20yds, but then I've always been a finger shooter until 7 weeks ago. Get out there too far, get lazy or sloppy with my release and pluck the string, things could get ugly in a hurry with a bare stick.

Haven't tried with my Bengal and release.....honestly didn't plan to do anything other than paper tune and the little fine tuning I did to get field points and broadheads grouping together, but now I'm curious.

brushrat
11-06-2009, 08:06 PM
I dont really know why its doing that bud id suggest centering ur drop away with ur center shot then just adjusting ur sight to the right.

tryed that tim. If i set my sight to the bareshaft..... my fletched arrows would still remail that 8" left (bareshaft still right). Oh well tommorrow if its not raining too hard i want to try a few things . Mainly heavier points and maybe cranking down the limb bolts a little. THanks:confused:

brushrat
11-07-2009, 02:56 PM
The "I'm certainly not a expert" part :D


I would like to hear how this works out.

Rarely tried bare shaft tuning past 20yds, but then I've always been a finger shooter until 7 weeks ago. Get out there too far, get lazy or sloppy with my release and pluck the string, things could get ugly in a hurry with a bare stick.

Haven't tried with my Bengal and release.....honestly didn't plan to do anything other than paper tune and the little fine tuning I did to get field points and broadheads grouping together, but now I'm curious.

Tryed 125 gr. tip but couldn't get any consistancy right of left, so i bagged the bareshaft. After tinkering with my drop speed and centershot position i finally got it to shoot well through paper. After a fashion i finally started grouping real well, so i moved my sight to that position and walla!! Its shooting like the old bengal did and i'm happy. Haven't tryed broadheads yet as i got rained out today. Tommorrow ,barring heavy rain i will do a walk-back to do a final check on my rt/Lt/ and up/down. But i have a great deal of confidence it'll be there and my broadheads should fly well. :D:)

to summarize: was not getting textbook bareshaft results on getting it to fly to the same point as my fletched arrows. I know others have had much better luck than i have doing this. Apparently my form is not consistant enough to allow that. My saving grace turned out to be paper tuning with fletched arrows and tweeking my rest till i started shooting nice, tight groups ,then I just adjusted the sight to where it was impacting. That is what worked for me. THanks to everyone for their help :D

glenfoxman
11-08-2009, 10:26 PM
sounds good, but Im a little disappointed that they havent gone for 80gb - maybe the drives arent available yet.



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golfisserious
12-26-2009, 05:11 PM
I am not an expert, I wanna say that right off, but bare shaft tuning... from what I have read, is mainly the best way to tune a bow for a "Fingers" shooter... as for a release shooter, vertical align after you plumb bob you rest to your knock point so both are in perfectly at right angles to each other... I.E.... your shoot string is perfectly straight up down... and your arrow is perfectly level horizontal in relationship to string. Then plumb bob a line, off your knock pt and make sure your rest is perfectly centered for that plumb bob line, when the string is parrallel (horizontally orientated).... then knock arrow, then split your arrow shaft with string, using one eye... and put your sites dead in line with string that is splitting arrow ALL THE WAY TO THE TIP...then shoot 6 arrows on a horizontal 1/2" wide black line... use some tape and put a marker to it... so you have a good target...chase arrow with sight until all six are in, or on that 1/2" line... don't cheat...

then using a tape measure... make sure that your string is even and exact distance...measure outside or inside string edge (not "middle"), adjust bottom limb bolt out until both measurements are the exact same, measure to where the limb meets the riser to the string, top and bottom... then draw a 1/2" wide line horizontally... shoot 6 arrows...adjusting sight till you are hitting line, then adjust the bottom limb 1/8 turn tighter at a time until your groupings are all in or on the line...

try it at 20yds after that... if you are shooting release leave the bareshaft and paper tuning alone... you can shoot a perfectly straight hole through a piece of paper at a 45* angle... if you don't believe me shoot it with any gun you have... it will leave a perfectly round hole no matter what angle you shoot from...

different broadheads have many different flight characteristics... a quality broadhead will group as tightly as your field pts... it just might be in a different area... typically most guys broadheads are different lengths than their field pts... and it changes the flight characteristics of your arrow, get a practice pt that is same length...

I shoot muzzy phantom broadheads, but use rage practice pts... they are nice and long like my broadheads...

but won't ever try killing a whitetail with an expandable ever again...I put one in the boilermaker this year at 28 yards and it stopped short of passing through after trying to break the exit rib...very lucky to collect a whitetail without a pass through one is...double lung 2nd year buck and it ran uphill, through a field with barely a blood trail still it started drowning... luckily I had a lighted knock on the arrow... sorry didn't mean to rant... rage broadheads suck...they themselves admitted it by making the "40KE" model

brushrat
12-26-2009, 07:14 PM
I am not an expert, I wanna say that right off, but bare shaft tuning... from what I have read, is mainly the best way to tune a bow for a "Fingers" shooter... as for a release shooter, vertical align after you plumb bob you rest to your knock point so both are in perfectly at right angles to each other... I.E.... your shoot string is perfectly straight up down... and your arrow is perfectly level horizontal in relationship to string. Then plumb bob a line, off your knock pt and make sure your rest is perfectly centered for that plumb bob line, when the string is parrallel (horizontally orientated).... then knock arrow, then split your arrow shaft with string, using one eye... and put your sites dead in line with string that is splitting arrow ALL THE WAY TO THE TIP...then shoot 6 arrows on a horizontal 1/2" wide black line... use some tape and put a marker to it... so you have a good target...chase arrow with sight until all six are in, or on that 1/2" line... don't cheat...

then using a tape measure... make sure that your string is even and exact distance...measure outside or inside string edge (not "middle"), adjust bottom limb bolt out until both measurements are the exact same, measure to where the limb meets the riser to the string, top and bottom... then draw a 1/2" wide line horizontally... shoot 6 arrows...adjusting sight till you are hitting line, then adjust the bottom limb 1/8 turn tighter at a time until your groupings are all in or on the line...

try it at 20yds after that... if you are shooting release leave the bareshaft and paper tuning alone... you can shoot a perfectly straight hole through a piece of paper at a 45* angle... if you don't believe me shoot it with any gun you have... it will leave a perfectly round hole no matter what angle you shoot from...

different broadheads have many different flight characteristics... a quality broadhead will group as tightly as your field pts... it just might be in a different area... typically most guys broadheads are different lengths than their field pts... and it changes the flight characteristics of your arrow, get a practice pt that is same length...

I shoot muzzy phantom broadheads, but use rage practice pts... they are nice and long like my broadheads...

but won't ever try killing a whitetail with an expandable ever again...I put one in the boilermaker this year at 28 yards and it stopped short of passing through after trying to break the exit rib...very lucky to collect a whitetail without a pass through one is...double lung 2nd year buck and it ran uphill, through a field with barely a blood trail still it started drowning... luckily I had a lighted knock on the arrow... sorry didn't mean to rant... rage broadheads suck...they themselves admitted it by making the "40KE" model

yea...i gave up the bare shaft thing. The guys that use this technique and have the perfect form to get credible results..... i say go for it! For me i did almost the exact procedure you mentioned till i got within 1/2-3/4" from verticle and horizontal then brought out the fixed blades. With a minor amount of tweaking i got them to group with my field points except about 3" low. I said good enough, i can remember to hold 3" up. :)

I tryed Grim reaper mechanicals years ago but had 2 pretty serious problems. One, was that they are illegel to hunt with in the state of oregon and number2 they didn't deploy properly at my draw weight ,which was only 53# and even less now. In a sick sort of way ....i like fiddeling and tweaking with the fixed blades which gives great satisfaction when everything comes together and they start shooting like target points. It can be the ultimat challenge.:):)

golfisserious
12-26-2009, 07:48 PM
not to rag... and like I said, no expert here... but 3" is just to far... if you accidentally take a 35yd shot when you think its 27yds, your gonna have major problems... unless you like trailing kidney blood...

start back at 10 yds, don't move to 20 till 10 is perfect, I mean perfect... perfecto...it sucks I know... but you will be way happier in the long run... be sure to do the plumb bob... and even more sure to check upper and lower height in relationship to limb/riser to string upper and lower, before shooting any arrows...

keep at it... I am no pro.. I am sitting in my garage, with the cars backed out of course, shooting corner to corner... max I can do in here is 18yds... and to this moment I am still tweaking at 15... worked on ten all day after... my broadheads shot different... right now, I can hole fields and broadheads in the same target with the same variance... I can shoot field, broad, field, broad, and can't tell the difference

good luck... keep at it... it will pay off

bfisher
12-27-2009, 11:13 AM
I have an older wersion of Easton's tuning guide. The info you seek is at the bottom of page 7.. My bad. What I also want to add is that maybe it's me, but every time I get a bare shaft planing to the right it's because the arrow is too stiff. I have that indication right now with my updated FireCat, shooting 27" GT-UL500 at 45#. Most charts say I should be shooting nearly a 700 spine and a 500 and even 560 spine plane to the right, just opposite of conventional wisdom.

golfisserious
12-27-2009, 05:40 PM
being that alluminum is extruded and carbon is twisted/woven...there are a ton of differences between the two arrows... the stiffer the bow, the more this can be seen, I think it would be cool if they did one of those high definition TV shows in super super slow motion, showing the differences between the two and in between different brands and quality of carbon.

With carbon you are definately going to get what you pay for... with extruded alluminum, straight is straight...until it is bent... the biggest draw back... in the last three days of playing with my bow, I have run into the back of several alluminum arrows I bought because they were cheap and available in the spine I needed...and they were ruined/bent... with carbon, they will survive, or break... usually no in between...

Have you ever had a favorite carbon arrow, then 6 months or a year later ordered more of that same brand and type, and they shot different... well it might not be your bow... its most likely because those carbon arrows were made in a different "batch" than the first set you bought and thus they react differently...

Another thing i have noticed is that spin checking with broadheads before shooting with the alluminum arrows, I have never had a problem...with carbon arrows... I have had to try up to 5 different arrows to find one that spun perfectly true...probably more the cutters fault than the arrows... but I really don't know...

Every piece of equipment has its advantages and drawbacks... I know me for one am looking forward to when the arrows I like to shoot, finally show up in the mail... Easton Axis FMJ dangerous game 300's...Every deer I have shot with, I have collected...not to mention, they absorb so much vibration, you won't believe how quiet your bow is... that said, they are heavy, heavy, heavy... you can literally watch the arrow fall at shots much over 30 yds...but boy do they pack a punch

golfisserious
12-27-2009, 06:48 PM
I have an older wersion of Easton's tuning guide. The info you seek is at the bottom of page 7.. My bad. What I also want to add is that maybe it's me, but every time I get a bare shaft planing to the right it's because the arrow is too stiff. I have that indication right now with my updated FireCat, shooting 27" GT-UL500 at 45#. Most charts say I should be shooting nearly a 700 spine and a 500 and even 560 spine plane to the right, just opposite of conventional wisdom.

I have been told that string weight... can cause the affect that you are talking about in your arrows... I don't know if its true... and it looks like you know a lot more about this than I do, but its a thought, so I am sharing with good intention...

good luck

bfisher
12-27-2009, 07:02 PM
I have been told that string weight... can cause the affect that you are talking about in your arrows... I don't know if its true... and it looks like you know a lot more about this than I do, but its a thought, so I am sharing with good intention...

good luck

There are so many little things that can affect lots of things. That's what makes archery so interesting to me. There are just no rules set in stone.

I don't know if you mean any weight I have on the string or the weight of the string itself. I can say that almost all the strings I;ve used have been nearly identical so the only thing to affect the shot would be what's on the string. And the only thing I ever have on my string is a tied-on nock set and Fletcher or G5 peep.

golfisserious
12-27-2009, 10:45 PM
There are so many little things that can affect lots of things. That's what makes archery so interesting to me. There are just no rules set in stone.

I don't know if you mean any weight I have on the string or the weight of the string itself. I can say that almost all the strings I;ve used have been nearly identical so the only thing to affect the shot would be what's on the string. And the only thing I ever have on my string is a tied-on nock set and Fletcher or G5 peep.

a good example would be the difference in weight between monafilament serving and nylon serving... monafilament being heavier...its a way to make up for slightly ill spined arrow choice...or if you are on the edge of choices and can't seem to get it just right... if your curious and have some extra crimp on knocks... just add an even amount of knocks above and below your d loop... increase weight will make arrow act stronger, decrease weight... ie remove strands of bow string and the arrow will act weaker.

A friend of mine owns a traditional archery shop and instead of selling people new arrows every year as their bow muscles get stronger, he just adjusts the string weight with serving up to a point... I don't know what that point is...its just what he does.

RobD
12-28-2009, 12:08 AM
look on{Compound bow tuning} on u tube ,they have very good demonstrations on there.