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scepter1158
12-12-2009, 10:13 AM
What are they doing to the new CAT cams to inprove the cam lean and limb twist problem? My 08 shoots great but the cam lean and limb twist at full draw looks pretty scary. I had to kick my cams as far right as possible to shoot this bow because of the arrow rest and sight being so far left. It is now shootable and is shooting great but the cable serving is wearing as a result of this problem.

ezbite
12-12-2009, 10:31 AM
my 09 firecat has serious lean at full draw too, just the top, bottoms straight as an arrow:confused: maybe ill order a bottom cam and put on top:rolleyes:

scepter1158
12-12-2009, 10:41 AM
Let me know how that works?:D

ezbite
12-12-2009, 01:49 PM
I was joking about the switch, I know it won't work.lol:D

scepter1158
12-12-2009, 02:59 PM
I know you where joking. The image in my head made me laugh.:D

copterdoc
12-12-2009, 06:36 PM
There isn't (and never will be) a way to get rid of cam lean, without having cables on both sides of the arrow. Today's short ATA, high let-off, fast bows, have higher cable loading and position the limbs at an angle that makes it easy for the cables to twist the limbs.
In order for the pressure pulling the limbs towards each other, to remain centered in the fork, the cables must be able to pull on both sides of the string track and directly towards the opposite limb. Since the cable tracks are all on one side of the bow and the cable guard pulls the cables away from the center of the bow, the cams lean over as cable loading increases as the string is drawn back.

The X-cam shoot-through systems, (Nitrous, Fury, Furious and others) are the only cam systems without cam lean. Unless hunters decide to accept shooting through the cables, they are going to have to accept cam lean, difficulty tuning, poor broadhead flight, and higher limb failure rates in short high let-off bows.

ezbite
12-12-2009, 11:41 PM
Unless hunters decide to accept shooting through the cables, they are going to have to accept cam lean, difficulty tuning, poor broadhead flight, and higher limb failure rates in short high let-off bows.

cam lean or not, my firecat tuned pretty easy and my thunderheads fly true. You must be talking about hoyts.lol.:D

copterdoc
12-13-2009, 10:01 AM
cam lean or not, my firecat tuned pretty easy and my thunderheads fly true. You must be talking about hoyts.lol.:D
No, I am talking about ANY cam system other than a balanced shoot-through.

The only reason we need to paper, walk-back, bare-shaft, or French tune, before we can get broadheads to group with field points, is to compensate for nock travel.

In essence, if bows don't have nock travel, they don't need to be fired, in order to get broadheads to hit the same place as field points.

As long as the arrow is centered and square to the string, if the shooter doesn't torque the grip, the bow will automatically be in tune, without having to use trial and error adjustment methods.

bfisher
12-13-2009, 02:08 PM
There isn't (and never will be) a way to get rid of cam lean, without having cables on both sides of the arrow. Today's short ATA, high let-off, fast bows, have higher cable loading and position the limbs at an angle that makes it easy for the cables to twist the limbs.
In order for the pressure pulling the limbs towards each other, to remain centered in the fork, the cables must be able to pull on both sides of the string track and directly towards the opposite limb. Since the cable tracks are all on one side of the bow and the cable guard pulls the cables away from the center of the bow, the cams lean over as cable loading increases as the string is drawn back.

The X-cam shoot-through systems, (Nitrous, Fury, Furious and others) are the only cam systems without cam lean. Unless hunters decide to accept shooting through the cables, they are going to have to accept cam lean, difficulty tuning, poor broadhead flight, and higher limb failure rates in short high let-off bows.

Hey Doc, welcome to the forums. And glad to see a nice, easy to understand assessment of what cam lean is about. I've said for a long time that what we commonly call cam-lean is not cam-lean but the twisting of the limb tips due to the forces applied by cable rod/slides and/or roller guards. Like you I also agree that this phenomenon is more prevalent as the ATA gets shorter, thus my dislike of short bows. I guess this is why some of the more particular, not so gullible shooters like Martin's X cams.

baerman
12-14-2009, 07:54 AM
Good Morning Bfischer,
I just read your post, and have another question for you. After falling in love with my Bengal I bought a brand-new (2009) Wart Hog. Since it has a longer ATA, will it give better results as it relates to cam lean? Also, neither the dealer nor myself can get the off-set of the cable bar to move so that it can be adjusted......is there a trick that you know of? It seems to be locked in place (after removeing the set-screws of course). Thanks in advance!
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bfisher
12-14-2009, 09:11 AM
Good Morning Bfischer,
I just read your post, and have another question for you. After falling in love with my Bengal I bought a brand-new (2009) Wart Hog. Since it has a longer ATA, will it give better results as it relates to cam lean? Also, neither the dealer nor myself can get the off-set of the cable bar to move so that it can be adjusted......is there a trick that you know of? It seems to be locked in place (after removeing the set-screws of course). Thanks in advance!

Any side pull might be less pronounced with a longer ATA, but it's still there. Still, 35" vs 32 1/2" isn't all that much.

As to how to remove the cable rod? I think the Warthog has a steel dog-legged rod, correct? It's probably just tight in the hole. You could try wiggling it a bit and see if that works. If not then maybe a couple good raps with a rubber or wooden mallet on the end. Now if that doesn't work maybe cut a couple small pieces of wood and clamp these on either side with a vice grip. Then try tapping it out that way.

Maybe some of the other guys have a better idea. I was a millwright in a steel mill before I retired and have a tendency to "just get a bigger sledge hammer" when I run into problems like this.

copterdoc
12-14-2009, 02:52 PM
Any side pull might be less pronounced with a longer ATA, but it's still there. Still, 35" vs 32 1/2" isn't all that much.

As to how to remove the cable rod? I think the Warthog has a steel dog-legged rod, correct? It's probably just tight in the hole. You could try wiggling it a bit and see if that works. If not then maybe a couple good raps with a rubber or wooden mallet on the end. Now if that doesn't work maybe cut a couple small pieces of wood and clamp these on either side with a vice grip. Then try tapping it out that way.

Maybe some of the other guys have a better idea. I was a millwright in a steel mill before I retired and have a tendency to "just get a bigger sledge hammer" when I run into problems like this.
You could use a heatgun, to safely heat up the riser. 6061 aluminum expands more than steel, so the hole will open up and release the rod. Don't get the riser so hot, that you can't touch it for more than a second, without feeling like it is going to burn you.

You can buy a cheap heatgun at Sears or most paint supply stores.

baerman
12-15-2009, 01:28 PM
Hey bfisher and copterdoc,
Thank you both for your invaluable input. I was able to get the cable-guard loose by using the blocks/vice grips and a hammer, but the STS just won't budge. I hack-sawed about a quarter of an inch off, dressed it, and then put the rubber plug back on, and now it just barely touches. May have to take more off. I wonder.....does Martin have any QC before shipping these bows? The Wart Hog cost me almost $700.00.....you'd think that they would have at least seen the "tent" that the bow string made at rest. Anyway......By the way, Coperdoc, I was afraid to apply heat to the bow...with strings around, etc. and with my clumsieness, I was afraid that I'd really turn it into a mess.
Take care Guys, and again....THANK YOU FOR YOUR INVALUABLE ADVICE!!!
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bfisher
12-15-2009, 05:34 PM
Glad everything, well almost, worked out OK. Now you know that to work on a bow a big hammer should be part of the tool box, LOL.

DB_43725
12-20-2009, 08:27 PM
I had the same thing happen on my Warthog, I would say when they drilled those holes the bit was wore out,,,LOL Or the rod is to dern big...

Boxolmeno
12-21-2009, 01:37 AM
g-man430 wrote:beatrizg126 wrote:HI....Im Beatriz from spain....loves to travel and talk about anything. Hoping to meet new friends here.

Como estas? Me bien y cansado. Como te llamas? Me llamo Jacob. Que pasa? Hasta la vista.
Dial the llamas? What?

bfisher
12-21-2009, 05:05 AM
g-man430 wrote:beatrizg126 wrote:HI....Im Beatriz from spain....loves to travel and talk about anything. Hoping to meet new friends here.

Como estas? Me bien y cansado. Como te llamas? Me llamo Jacob. Que pasa? Hasta la vista.
Dial the llamas? What?

You do understand that this is a forum dedicated to archery, correct? Martin bows in particular, but we shall not discriminate, too badly.

If you are not into archery or interested in such then it might be better for ou to find another forum.

baerman
12-21-2009, 09:00 AM
Hi DB,
Yes, I'm suspecting that Martin's Quality Control is pretty shabby. The guy on the phone blamed the pro-shop, but when I bought the bow the STS kept the bow string "tented" back from the riser about 1/4 inch. This was a brand new bow, with the tags from the factory still attached. There was no offer to fix the bow by the factory......simply stated that the wrong STS rod must have been installed......and then total silence. As I said, pretty dissapointing. Maybe Matthews next time.
Take care
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Montalaar
12-21-2009, 09:52 AM
Yeah.... Mathews.... Well, think about it before you decide next time. But the pro shop could have set this bow up for you. They should know how a STS has to look like.

bfisher
12-21-2009, 09:54 AM
Hi DB,
Yes, I'm suspecting that Martin's Quality Control is pretty shabby. The guy on the phone blamed the pro-shop, but when I bought the bow the STS kept the bow string "tented" back from the riser about 1/4 inch. This was a brand new bow, with the tags from the factory still attached. There was no offer to fix the bow by the factory......simply stated that the wrong STS rod must have been installed......and then total silence. As I said, pretty dissapointing. Maybe Matthews next time.
Take care

What do you mean by the word "tented"? Do you mean the rod was too long? I don't know about your particular bow, but the ones I have seen have a set screw that holds the rod in place. Loosen the set screw and the rod can be slid back and forth. If the rod is too long and bottoms out in the hole it shouldn't be much of an issue to remove it and hacksaw that 1/4" off so you can adjust it.

True, this should have been caught by whoever assembled the bow, but some things do get overlooked. For the little bit that needs done I wonder if you really think ponying up another $200 to $300 is worth it to get a Mathews. Not to bad mouth Mathews, but they get a few off the assembly line that get some details overlooked also as do all companies.

baerman
12-21-2009, 12:30 PM
Hi Mr. Fisher,
Even with your good advice a few days ago, I couldn't get the STS rod out of the riser......so, I had to hack-saw the rod shorter. In addition to that, the rod didn't intercept the string correctly, so since I couldn't get the rod our, I simply "bent" it to the right place. As I said, the biggest dissapointment was the "silent treatment" by the guy on the phone at Martin.......I would have thought that they would offer to fix it. Guess they're over-run with re-do's, and didn't want another one. Anyway, I've got it patched together now and hope that it'll run right from here on out.
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