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bfisher
12-18-2009, 06:17 PM
OK fellows, some of you know I split a limb on my 2008 FireCat. I ordered new limbs Nov 16th, specifying that I wanted the 2010 limbs. At the time I was not aware of, nor told that the 2010 limbs are quite different from earlier versions.

2010 limbs are not drilled for the Roto-cup pins to fit into for alignment. The Roto-cups themselves are different. Instead of two pins that fit into the limb they just have two plastic buttons in the rocker that the limb sits on. The ends of the Roto-cup have raised machine side like old side plates. The limb itself is just flat where it sits on the bottons. Seems like the limb could float around lengthwise so I'm wondering what theck would keep it from moving. Time will tell.

Martin seems to be following some others in that instead of the limb being the same width through it's length if tapers as it nears the limb tips; 1.50" for the new vs 1.85" for the old. This might not be good, somthing I'll explain later.

The limb forks themselves are markedly narrower as is the distance between the forks; .715" vs .830 for the old. This means only one thin spacer on each side of the cam.

OK, I took a hole haalf hour to change the limbs and Rot-cups, Installed the new strings and balanced everything out. ATA and brace height is real close to what I had. Draw weight is good as is the length. What is different is the centershot. The new location for the cams means the centertshot location should end up about .017" closer to the riser. Also meant twisting the STS to the right more.

Everything looked fine so I threw it up on the draw board and got a surprise. The limbs twist so badly that when the cams roll over to the valley the cables almost roll of the side of the module---not good. Cam-lean like I've never seen before. Maybe I had it with the old limbs and I just didn't take notice. One limb has more lean at static position than the other so I changed the limbs from top to bottom and it wasn't quite as bad, but is still a little scary. The bad lean was on the bottom. It is now the top limb. The lean traveled with the limb.

My first thought was to call one of the techs at Martin, but being the ballsy guy I am I'm going to shoot it and see what happens. Either tomorrow or Sunday.

It is imperative that I learn how to post pictures so you could see this. Then somebody might be able to offer a solution. Well, maybe some help. The solution is just a Joel call away.

Oregonhunter78
12-18-2009, 08:19 PM
I read on archerytalk somewhere, if you want to put 2010 limbs on your 08 or 09 riser, you need to have 2010 roto cups, limbs and new cams.

bfisher
12-18-2009, 08:26 PM
I read on archerytalk somewhere, if you want to put 2010 limbs on your 08 or 09 riser, you need to have 2010 roto cups, limbs and new cams.

I don't know about the cams. I might have to check with Joel on that one. They did see fit to supply me with the newly designed Roto-cups, axle kit and such. Something I didn't even know about when I placed the order.

I don't see how the cams would make that much difference, but I'll be sure and ask.

Oregonhunter78
12-18-2009, 08:31 PM
This is what i was looking at, hope this helps.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1077458&highlight=2010+martin+limbs

bfisher
12-19-2009, 07:05 AM
Oh boy, does that ever help. Thanks. Now I know I won't shoot the thing. A phone call is definitely in order. Now I have to sit and think about it all weekend as to what choices I might have to make or what is offered me. New old style limbs (I have the Roto's) or the new cams to go with these limbs.

And if I go with the 2010 Cat cam it may as well be the Cat 1.5 to put me into the draw length curve better. I'm right at the bottom of the module.

Spiker
12-19-2009, 07:17 AM
Speed Bearings
Precision Roller Speed Bearings
Eliminates Drag
New Flanged Bearings Eliminate
Spacers and Improves Axle
and Cam Alignment. Sealed to Keep Lubrication
In and Dirt Out

The bearing change is most likely the main reason for the cam fitment issue.

bfisher
12-19-2009, 07:27 AM
Speed Bearings
Precision Roller Speed Bearings
Eliminates Drag
New Flanged Bearings Eliminate
Spacers and Improves Axle
and Cam Alignment. Sealed to Keep Lubrication
In and Dirt Out

The bearing change is most likely the main reason for the cam fitment issue.

I'm not an engineer, but I think there's more to it than that. My cams have bearings; one on each side of the cam. The cams just about fills the gap between the limb forks. There's only room for one 1/32" spacer on each side of the cam, which Martin did supply with the axle kit. I don't know. We'll see.

Montalaar
12-19-2009, 07:37 AM
Just for your interest...:
The new limbs are not longer produced in the second Martin factory at <put name of the city here> but in W2 isntead. The got a new machine for the new limbs this year. It will also give them the ability to make most of the parts needed at W2.

brushrat
12-19-2009, 10:59 AM
OK fellows, some of you know I split a limb on my 2008 FireCat. I ordered new limbs Nov 16th, specifying that I wanted the 2010 limbs. At the time I was not aware of, nor told that the 2010 limbs are quite different from earlier versions.

2010 limbs are not drilled for the Roto-cup pins to fit into for alignment. The Roto-cups themselves are different. Instead of two pins that fit into the limb they just have two plastic buttons in the rocker that the limb sits on. The ends of the Roto-cup have raised machine side like old side plates. The limb itself is just flat where it sits on the bottons. Seems like the limb could float around lengthwise so I'm wondering what theck would keep it from moving. Time will tell.

Martin seems to be following some others in that instead of the limb being the same width through it's length if tapers as it nears the limb tips; 1.50" for the new vs 1.85" for the old. This might not be good, somthing I'll explain later.

The limb forks themselves are markedly narrower as is the distance between the forks; .715" vs .830 for the old. This means only one thin spacer on each side of the cam.

OK, I took a hole haalf hour to change the limbs and Rot-cups, Installed the new strings and balanced everything out. ATA and brace height is real close to what I had. Draw weight is good as is the length. What is different is the centershot. The new location for the cams means the centertshot location should end up about .017" closer to the riser. Also meant twisting the STS to the right more.

Everything looked fine so I threw it up on the draw board and got a surprise. The limbs twist so badly that when the cams roll over to the valley the cables almost roll of the side of the module---not good. Cam-lean like I've never seen before. Maybe I had it with the old limbs and I just didn't take notice. One limb has more lean at static position than the other so I changed the limbs from top to bottom and it wasn't quite as bad, but is still a little scary. The bad lean was on the bottom. It is now the top limb. The lean traveled with the limb.

My first thought was to call one of the techs at Martin, but being the ballsy guy I am I'm going to shoot it and see what happens. Either tomorrow or Sunday.

It is imperative that I learn how to post pictures so you could see this. Then somebody might be able to offer a solution. Well, maybe some help. The solution is just a Joel call away.

Ouch!....with a setup like that, the limbs are free to slide "willy-nilly" within the limb slots. The "flaired" shape of the limbs would prevent some movement towards the riser by "wedging" itself into the roto-cup, but it would be able to travel the length of the slot the other way. If it were me, i would try to "finagle" a way to get the 09 limbs with the old style roto-cups that were pinned to the riser and the limbs. As far as the "flaired" limbs, simply by design they are much easier to twist than the old straight limbs. That was the 1st thing i noticed on my 09 Bengal. I had to buy a "hoyt" cable slide to limit the cable pull as much as possible because my cam lean and my idler lean was terrible. That helped, but will NEVER solve the "leaning" problem with a limb designed to be that narrow at the top. It might be something we all have to live with if thats the way the designs are headed. And just common sense tells you that the longer the limb the more the effect:cool:. In the end ,even though it defies logic my 09 bengal shoots just as well as my 08 . The 08 bengal had straight limbs (same width from top to bottom) and very little cam lean .:confused: So,even with all this "twisting and flexing" going on, my 09 doesn't shoot any better, or any worse than my 08 did. "Your milage may vary"....Good luck, hope you get everything worked out .:) Del

bfisher
12-19-2009, 03:41 PM
Brushrat,

Your thinking is somewhat close in that the limb seems like it could slide back and forth in the cup. What would keep it from doing so is beyond me.

I have to call customer service and talk to Joel anyway about the cam lean situation. From reading the link given me by Oregonhunter78 it seems the 2010 limb won't work with my old Cat cams. So I either am going to have to exchange these '10 limbs for 2009 ones, 5 laminate and most likely Barnesdale, OR they'll have to update the cams for me. I won't know anything till I talk to Joel or whoever handles it.

About the only thing right that I've done lately is NOT sned the old parts back yet. So I still have the old Roto-cups if I'll need them.

You got me to thinking and so I went and got the dial calipers out and started measuring these limbs. They do not taper or get slimmer toward the limb tips. The are shaped as what I'd describe as a slight hour glass. They measure 1.50" and both the tips and at the butt end. About 4" or so from both ends they taper slightly inward and measure 1.49". So, in reality the limb is slimmer even at the Roto-cup. I'm sorry I mislead anybody.

Seems like they are going the same route as Mathews and making the limbs narrower. As I said before, I'm no engineer, but......

copterdoc
12-19-2009, 05:06 PM
I cracked a limb on my first Bullet-X and had the limbs replaced. At the time, I was using Barnsdale "Doovawoppi" cable spreaders and I couldn't get the top cam to align with the string at brace. I was putting a ton of twist to the cable on one end of the axle. I noticed that the cable spreader was tilting over, from the high tension on the cable and the cable on the opposite side of the axle was pretty much slack.

I took the limbs off and lay them face down on a table top. The problem limb was twisted so bad, it rocked side to side. It was defective. I had them sent back and the ones I got back were fine.

bfisher
12-21-2009, 09:59 AM
Well, it's monday the 21st. I placed a call to Joel and was rewarded with a call back from him in about 15 minutes. We discussed the options available and he did point out that the Cat cams have been redesigned for 2010 and so he is going to send me 2010 cams to go with my 2010 limbs. The cam lean issue is supposedly being dealt with by somehow rerouting the way the cable feeds onto the module. I'll have to see this first hand as I can't imagine.......

So whenever I get these and get the bow set up---again---we'll see what it looks like. Then I'll make a report.

brushrat
12-21-2009, 11:36 AM
Well, it's monday the 21st. I placed a call to Joel and was rewarded with a call back from him in about 15 minutes. We discussed the options available and he did point out that the Cat cams have been redesigned for 2010 and so he is going to send me 2010 cams to go with my 2010 limbs. The cam lean issue is supposedly being dealt with by somehow rerouting the way the cable feeds onto the module. I'll have to see this first hand as I can't imagine.......

So whenever I get these and get the bow set up---again---we'll see what it looks like. Then I'll make a report.

I still don't see how it will eliminate the lean issue as long as the forces are still there providing fletching clearance. I do think it can help with the premature string/cable wear problems and provide a more tunable bow by helping with side to side nock travel. I guess just the physical appearance of a cam or idler that leans would be acceptable if it didn't effect the way the bow shoots or wears the strings. Lets hope it works.

Good luck to you Bfisher!

Spiker
12-21-2009, 02:31 PM
Arre you going to get the 1.5's?

bfisher
12-21-2009, 05:11 PM
No Cat 1.5. I can live with it as is. I've been shooting it for 2 years. Besides, I'm not looking for peak performance with it now as it will end up being my hunting bow and I don't consider speed all that important for shooting 30 yards or less in the woods. I might even change the way I've set up my hunting bows and go with a slightly a heavier arrow just to tone it down.

I did ask about the Cat 1.5 and Joel said that would entail swapping cams, string set, and limbs again. And putting it all together the larger cam will draw a bit easier than the smaller one. That's a lot of expense for Martin, a company that has treated me well the last 5 years. So what I should end up with is practically a 2010 FireCat with Cat2 cams.

I guess I'll just wait for my Alien Z to see how the Cat 1.5 feels. Oh, I did ask about the Z and he says they aren't shipping yet, but should be in a couple weeks. This is for anybody that is interested in the information.

I was also thinking of getting the "skull" camo, but seeing it on a Nemisis on AT I'm less than impressed now. I'll just get my Black riser w/camo limbs. I know the "skull" camo looks neat close up most people aren't going to be looking that closely at it. To most it'll just look like any other camo. Of course, if I'm wrong I could always change it later down the road, maybe.