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bfisher
01-13-2010, 06:16 AM
I am on a quest to get the best performance out of my FireCat for 3D, not hunting. I'm presently limited to about 45# so getting serious speed is kind of hard.

Recently did some homework and came up with a good combination, or at least I think so. Having a 26.5" draw, all my arrows are overspined, the lightest being a 500 spine.

I just got some Gold Tip Entrada 600 shafts and am playing. Cut to 25.5", 26" from the nock groove. The bare shaft weighs in at 145.4 grains. I'm using 35gr target tips with 10gr weights added. Add nock and three 2" feathers and the total arrow weight comes in at 209gr. That right, no misprint----209 grains.

The FOC is pretty low at 5.83%, so I might have to play with that. Being a senior I don't have to shoot anything over 35 yards around here so it might pan out.

Believe it or not these things still paper tune stiff, which isn't all that bad. I can always add weights to the tips and go up a few pounds in bow weight, trying to stay within the 5 gr/lb rule that so many like to adhere to.

Haven't had a real chance to do any tuning or anything yet. Don't have indoor facilities as yet and it's been a might chilly out.

My whole point is that for those who are not aware of it there are so many choices available in carbon arrows that it is possible to build ultralite arrows or ultra heavy ones, all spined correctly for your bow. In most cases you just aren't going to find these in archery shops.

So who has any thoughts about my choice. Any help?

Brem
01-13-2010, 06:28 AM
bfisher,
So at 45# staying with the 5/# rule your minimium would be 225gr. I am also experimenting with light arrows at this time and I am trying to adhere to it as well. I am waiting on some victory VForce HV 350s that are 6.4gpi and should weigh about 310-315gr. Is this rule explicitly stated in the manufacturers warrantee that if you shoot below 5gr/# that it will void it or is it a safety practice? As far as speed goes with your specs I would gues your still in the 285-290fps range. Thats not bad for 45#s if you ask me.

Brem
01-13-2010, 07:06 AM
What I could find is in the 2009 martin manual.

Ten Commandments Of Archery Safety
Never - Shoot an arrow that is less than five grains per pound. For example, an 80# bow requires a
minimum of 400 grains of arrow weight. Less than five grains per pound of arrow weight
simulates a dry fire effect and may damage your bow.

and

Warranty limitations are as follows:
1. If bow shows signs of misuse, alteration, or mishandling this warranty will be void. Use of arrows weighingless than five (5) grains per pound of draw weight is considered misuse and will void this warranty.

RLW
01-13-2010, 08:08 AM
bfisher,

I just ran your specs thru the 'Software for Archers' program I downloaded http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/sfa.aspx
Obviously you're below that 5gr/lb, but it did show that combo spined just slightly stiff. Program came up with 209.3gr (std GT nock), 7.36% FOC, 278.85fps

FYI: up to a 20gr wt @ 43lbs, shows 9.19% FOC, 5.1gr/lb, and still 273fps

RogerSr
01-13-2010, 08:25 AM
I am on a quest to get the best performance out of my FireCat for 3D, not hunting. I'm presently limited to about 45# so getting serious speed is kind of hard.

Recently did some homework and came up with a good combination, or at least I think so. Having a 26.5" draw, all my arrows are overspined, the lightest being a 500 spine.

I just got some Gold Tip Entrada 600 shafts and am playing. Cut to 25.5", 26" from the nock groove. The bare shaft weighs in at 145.4 grains. I'm using 35gr target tips with 10gr weights added. Add nock and three 2" feathers and the total arrow weight comes in at 209gr. That right, no misprint----209 grains.

The FOC is pretty low at 5.83%, so I might have to play with that. Being a senior I don't have to shoot anything over 35 yards around here so it might pan out.

Believe it or not these things still paper tune stiff, which isn't all that bad. I can always add weights to the tips and go up a few pounds in bow weight, trying to stay within the 5 gr/lb rule that so many like to adhere to.

Haven't had a real chance to do any tuning or anything yet. Don't have indoor facilities as yet and it's been a might chilly out.

My whole point is that for those who are not aware of it there are so many choices available in carbon arrows that it is possible to build ultralite arrows or ultra heavy ones, all spined correctly for your bow. In most cases you just aren't going to find these in archery shops.

So who has any thoughts about my choice. Any help?

I have been using light arrows for some time now, I use GT ultralight 500
for just about every thing at 28" to 29" with 80gr nibb, when I use them for hunting I use 100gr points, I also use Victory X ringer HV cut to 29"
with 50gr point and 10gr weights, most of my hunting arrows have a total weight of 307gr, my hunting bow has a max of #51 they work fine for deer.

SandSquid
01-13-2010, 08:46 AM
I shoot Victory X-RingerHV.350's @ 6.2 gpi and 85 grain points and NanoForce 600's 5.4gpi w/ 85 grain points out of my 35# bows.. they are light and FAST.

Shooting out of my 45# P3 and Scepter4 it feels borderline to a dryfire.

Bumped the X-RingerHV.350's to inserts and 145grain field tips and the bows shoot soft and quiet, but slow arrows.

RogerSr
01-13-2010, 09:31 AM
My Victor X Ringer HV.350s are 28" with 50gr. tip & 10gr. weight for a total arrow weight of 262gr. and they are very fast. I also have some with 100gr. tip's that have a total arrow weight of 301gr.

bfisher
01-13-2010, 01:04 PM
So I see I'm not the only speed fanatic on here.

For what it's worth I have shot light arrows since making the transition to carbon arrows back in the ealy 90's. Since then there have been dramatic changes in carbon arrows. The choices are almost endless if a person does some homework.

Don't know why, but I've always been able to spine a little lighter than the charts show. I usually just pick something from Easton's Target chart to match up the spine.

I can get a good tune with a 500 spine, 27" arrow, uo to about 63#. Depends on the bow and cam setup. Of course, the 60# is out of the question now. About the best I can do is 47# with any kind of control. I've just lived with what I have in the way of arrows and most fall well above the 5 gr/lb rule.

With a new Alien Z on order I am finally opening the wallet and trying something closer to a proper spine and get the weight down at the same time. Last couple years I have been shooting GT UL-500, 22 series, and ACC 3-28. The ACC's are a bit heavy for my present weight, reducing speed, but as long as I've been shooting I've never found a more consistent, accurate arrow. Guys can say all they want about what carbon arrows are the best, but I don't think there are many that live up to spine consistancy any better than the ACC's; that is, without dropping something in the neighborhood of $400. Got to keep things within reason, you know.

RLW, I thank you for the runout on the puter specs. I guess once this thing is set up I'll have to chrono it and see how close things are. That 209.3 gr is exactly what my powder scale says. I'll have to double check the FOC. I may have mismeasured or miscalculated. The only other thing I'm going to change with the arrows is going to CB bushings and G-nocks. Then I really have to get with optimizing the cam rotation as per instructions on AT.

For those of you that experiment I'll say that's what this is. I can judge yardage fairly well out to 40 yards and do quite well with any bow shooting 250 fps and up. This is just one of those things to play with in the never ending quest for perfection. NOW, if I could ever get the target panic under control..........

bfisher
01-13-2010, 01:07 PM
I shoot Victory X-RingerHV.350's @ 6.2 gpi and 85 grain points and NanoForce 600's 5.4gpi w/ 85 grain points out of my 35# bows.. they are light and FAST.

Shooting out of my 45# P3 and Scepter4 it feels borderline to a dryfire.

Bumped the X-RingerHV.350's to inserts and 145grain field tips and the bows shoot soft and quiet, but slow arrows.

Yes John, those vertical limbed bows do have a tendency to want to vibrate a bit don't they?

How's that shoulder doing these days? By your postings I'd say you're not pushing it too hard. Good man.

DB_43725
01-13-2010, 02:34 PM
If this is ov any interest Easten makes a ultra lite nok that is 2 grains lighter than the G nok. And they seem real consistant across the board.

DB_43725
01-13-2010, 02:43 PM
bfisher I spent all day adjusting the cat cams on my warthog,got them perfect and added speed noks as per post on AT,,, then shooting through cgh and didnt change my ftp one tenth. All I was hoping for was too gain 2 ft per sec. So my only conclusion is she must be as fast as she will ever be,,LOL
This was staying in spec with the 5 grain per pound.:(

Brem
01-13-2010, 03:04 PM
DB,
Glad it worked for you as well. What kind of speed did you get out of your hog, what DW,DL, weight arrow, do tell do tell....

DB_43725
01-13-2010, 05:33 PM
Ok OK ,,,LOL With it set at fifty lbs and a 27 in arrow at 278 grains it averages 313 ft per sec,, Now the bow is a 31 in draw lenght with an overdraw. And at 60 lbs and a 298 gr to 302 gr arrows its averages 328 ft per sec. I did shoot it once at 60lbs with those 278 gr arrows and it was like 337.7 but dont want to hurt the bow so im not doing that any more. I fig it wouldnt like a steady diet ov those lite arrows. I did roll the cams up a little more than I wanted,,their at .030 clearance to the post,only reason being was I forgot my feelers guage today when I went to the bow shop to use their press. But Im not changing it shot it tonite and wow did it tightin my groups up and arrows are flying spot on. Last time I had it shooting I desided to hunt for more speed and put 5 twists in the cables to get the poundage up to spec and lost grouping. Here I come to find out that one cam had rotated more than the other and it did make a big enough differance I could see inlarged grouping,, I couldnt fig it out,thought I lost it ,,lol,,, But that post on AT about how to set cams,,,is worth its weight in GOLD. Because I had no Idea where to measurer and get rotation even.:):):):)

bfisher
01-13-2010, 07:01 PM
If this is ov any interest Easten makes a ultra lite nok that is 2 grains lighter than the G nok. And they seem real consistant across the board.

Hey, it's information and information helps us learn. Thanks for the info. I do have to ask, though, do they fit right in the arrow or into a CB bushing?

DB_43725
01-13-2010, 08:22 PM
They fit my gold tip vapors and my carbon maxma 250 also used them in V forse HVs fit right in the end.

bfisher
01-13-2010, 08:25 PM
They fit my gold tip vapors and my carbon maxma 250 also used them in V forse HVs fit right in the end.

Thanks for that, but I'm sticking with the CB bushings and G-nocks. The nocks are usually better quality and the bushings help keep the arrow from splitting when busting nocks.

DB_43725
01-13-2010, 08:31 PM
O ok ,I thought the G nok was a press in,,,, sorry

bfisher
01-13-2010, 08:32 PM
I guess it's time to update some progress. Went to the club tonite and punched a couple shots through paper. Perfect bullet holes. I couldn't get this with the blade rest. Had a slight left tear; maybe 1/4".

Just since last week I changed the rest from a blade to a GKF Superstar. I always liked the Star Hunter. Got good results with it and no trouble. I eyeballed the centershot and height so the nocking point is 3/16" above square. To get bullet holes with no adjusting necessary kind of amazes me.

Don't know when I'll get to fine tuning. For me that means getting outside and bare shaft tuning. I just see better outside. Just need a day of warm weather.

Then I need to make the trip to Kinsey's to use the chrono. I change things almost as often as I change underwear.

DB_43725
01-13-2010, 08:48 PM
The ol eye ball must not be as bad you thought,,LOL Wish mine were half that good... Hell some ov this new crap ya buy dont work half that good. I desided Ineeded a lazer ,so I bought one,done my x forse worked like a charm.so thought might as well do the hog,, boy was that a mistake,took me 2 weeks to get the dern thing back to where is was , something isnt right because when ya line it up on the nok and move to the rest all is well but by the time you get to the end of the arrow its off to the left side of the shaft,still on the shaft just not centered, Rotated shaft didnt help changed shaft same way so some thing is amiss. Any way keep up the good work and hope for a little warm spell.

Brem
01-14-2010, 06:53 AM
I did a quick calculation on my Flatlines w/ 100gr heads and they are 11.3% and my Entradas w 85 grs are 8.9%. This is a much debated subject from calculation to affect on performace. What works best with your setups?

RLW
01-14-2010, 07:42 AM
Personally I like a min 12% FOC on my arrows, but use same ones for target and hunting.......I think it helps recover/stabilize arrows better in all around conditions.
My Beman ICSH 340's are at 12.5% and a new set of Carbon Force X-Weave 300's I'm trying, measure a hair over 13%

Long time ago when I was shooting an indoor league, keeping right around 10% worked well for me on target arrows w/fingers

bfisher
01-16-2010, 05:08 PM
bfisher,

I just ran your specs thru the 'Software for Archers' program I downloaded http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/sfa.aspx
Obviously you're below that 5gr/lb, but it did show that combo spined just slightly stiff. Program came up with 209.3gr (std GT nock), 7.36% FOC, 278.85fps

FYI: up to a 20gr wt @ 43lbs, shows 9.19% FOC, 5.1gr/lb, and still 273fps

I guess the software works pretty well for those that use it. I fianlly got to chrono the bow today and three consecutive shots were 275 fps. Oh, and that was at 43#.

Still haven't played with cam optimizing yet. It's just been the last couple days that it warmed up enough to take the bow outside.

Spiker
01-17-2010, 08:47 AM
Pretty good for 43# !

RLW
01-18-2010, 06:58 AM
I guess the software works pretty well for those that use it.......
Once your actual set-up is entered, I found it very close to what I see thru my chronograph.