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Ehunter
07-19-2010, 03:21 PM
I am having a problem with broadhead planing. I'm shooting a 2009 Firecat, 28 1/2 draw, 68#. 363 gr. arrow (Victory NanoForce) small diameter arrow. I have them fletched with 2 inch quick spins. Shooting around 315 fps. Been shooting Shuttle T Locks and Slick Tricks, and both are planing about 8 inches or so at 20 yards. No rest or clearance problems. Wondering if I need more fletch at this speed for a fixed blade head, or should I just switch over to an expandable? Thanks in advance for the help guys!

Destroyer
07-19-2010, 09:06 PM
You could try your 2" in a 4 fletch, might help. Over 280 fps is usually mechanical head territory any way. The other thing is to go for a heavier shaft. 363 grains is too light for your 68# bow imho. I would be looking for at least 400+.

Mechanical heads? Personally I don't like them at all.

Sagittarius
07-20-2010, 05:14 AM
how heavy are your BHs?? are they lined up with your fletchings?? did you test spin the arrows and heads to make sure the spin good together?? have you paper tuned the bow w/ and w/out the BHs?? just a few guesses.....

Ehunter
07-21-2010, 02:03 AM
I'm shooting 100 gr. heads. Everything is lined up and tuned. Arrows spin true with the heads. I've paper tuned the bow out to 40 yards, and get perfect tears at that distance. Haven't paper tuned with the broadheads though, only field points..

Sagittarius
07-21-2010, 05:44 AM
try this site?? if it doesn't help try the mechanical??




http://www.redhawk-archery.com/bh-tuning.php

RLW
07-21-2010, 05:52 AM
What spine arrow, and what is the FOC?

Sounds similar to problems I was having with a set of arrows a while back. Field points flew fine, but broadheads planned up/right bad. Found my arrows were slightly weak spined (400 in my case) AND my front of center balance was below 10% (I have some now at 10.5% that fly good, but I typically prefer +/-12%)

SonnyThomas
07-21-2010, 09:39 AM
First, 2" Quick Spins are more than enough for normal conditions.
Victory Nano Force doesn't tell of what spine - too weak and possible erratic results with either field points or fixed broadheads. And Yes, 363 grs seems on the light side for 315 fps.
At one time the limit for fixed broadheads was 260 fps. Today, with careful work, 300 fps is rare to be able to control.
Paper tuning fixed broadheads isn't recommended. BUT, tuning field points and fixed broadheads is a option. First, most arrows shot out of badly setup bows will correct themselves after a few yards, so don't go beyond 20 yards to start. 15 yards might be better to start.
Select 3 field point arrows and three fixed broadheads. Shoot the field points first to establish point of impact. Shoot the broadheads next. Note point of impact. If grouping high of field points, lower rest or raise nocking point very slightly. Opposite for broadheads impacting low. If impacting right, move rest slightly to the left. Opposite for broadheads impacting left. After getting good results try a longer distance.

Personally, field points flying great, I'd go with mechanical broadheads. I use the N.A.P. Shock Wave 100 and have had great success - 32 deer in 10 years and no failures.

Another personal thing. I don't believe in to tune for field points and fixed broadheads and some of the top hunters don't either. They tune for fixed broadheads and set their sights for them. To go with this would be you, yourself. What do you shoot most, 3D, practice, paper or just hunt? If you hunt only a few days out of the year, why waste all that time and effort to tune your bow for both field points and fixed broadheads?

Ehunter
07-22-2010, 06:04 PM
The shafts are spined for 60/75#. Figured that since I'm shooting 68#, and 100 gr. heads, this should work fine. Wouldn't paper tuning show signs of a weak spine when tuning at different distances? I thought about a heavier arrow for hunting, but the target penetration I'm getting out of these arrows looks like it should work really well for hunting. Getting 10-12 inches of arrow out the back side of a McKenzie Tuff Buck 2 target at 50 yards with field points. I can only imagine broadheads would be out even farther.

Destroyer
07-23-2010, 05:21 AM
Wouldn't paper tuning show signs of a weak spine when tuning at different distances?

Not always. The vanes straighten out the shaft quickly so further out will show less problems.

A heavier arrow for hunting will slow your bow down so planning won't be such a problem. The bonus will be a arrow with more momentum, a more stable arrow, quieter bow, and maybe a longer lasting bow too.

RLW
07-23-2010, 07:30 AM
......quieter bow, and maybe a longer lasting bow too.
Especially the latter.

I'm not familiar with Victory arrows, so looked them up. You mention spined for 60/75lbs, but which arrow 400 or 350? .....what length? ......and do your arrows have the outserts?

I had access to OnTarget2 program, so put in your bow and given specs. To get close to the weight/fps mentioned, I came up with a short 27" Victory 350 arrow, quick-spin vanes, 27.0gr outsert w/100gr pt.
This calc'd out to 364.5gr with an FOC of 14%, which eliminates my thought of that being too low, that with a few tweaks I got this arrow guess to show 314.5fps.
The program "Spine Match" showed it on the bottom end of acceptable spine for a target arrow and on the weak side for a hunting arrow.

Of course that is just the program calculated guess, but I've found this one to be fairly on.

Might try backing off the draw weight 5lbs and see how the arrows react. If it is a weak spine issue, that should be enough to show it.......arrow speed would probably still be in the low 300's

Ehunter
07-23-2010, 05:03 PM
Thanks for the help guys. RLW, I never thought of backing the bow off. I'll give that a try, and see what happens! Thanks again all!

Destroyer
07-23-2010, 09:07 PM
Let us know how you go with it. :)

Ehunter
07-24-2010, 07:40 AM
I'm shooting 28 inch 350 spine arrows with 2" quick spins, outsert, and a 100 gr, head. 68# draw @ 28 1/2 inch DL. Total weight I am getting is 363 gr. Shooting consistently at 318-319 fps. Waiting on new H&M strings before I try lowering the draw weight to check spine. Found a pretty big fray in the factory string, so playing it safe. Shouldn't a 3350 spine be good for this set up though? Most arrow manufacturers don't show anything beyond a 350 spine that I've found. Thanks for the input!

SonnyThomas
07-24-2010, 04:09 PM
Your original post. There is no mention of paper tuning field points (6 to 8 feet is deemed adequate). There is no mention of rest tuning whatsoever (deemed proper procedure for broadhead tuning). No matter what you do (lower draw weight or increase spine) you will not get both to impact at the same point without rest tuning unless by pure accident......

Destroyer
07-24-2010, 07:54 PM
2" quick spins

With helical?


Shooting consistently at 318-319 fps

Say this again, very hard to tune fixed heads at this sort of speed.


Most arrow manufacturers don't show anything beyond a 350 spine that I've found

.300 spine is common and you can go stiffer than that.

RLW
07-26-2010, 07:40 AM
I'm shooting 28 inch 350 spine arrows with 2" quick spins, outsert, and a 100 gr, head. 68# draw @ 28 1/2 inch DL. Total weight I am getting is 363 gr. Shooting consistently at 318-319 fps. Waiting on new H&M strings before I try lowering the draw weight to check spine. Found a pretty big fray in the factory string, so playing it safe. Shouldn't a 3350 spine be good for this set up though? Most arrow manufacturers don't show anything beyond a 350 spine that I've found. Thanks for the input!

As Destroyer mentions there are stiffer arrows out there, like Beman/Easton 340, PSE's I'm currently using are 300 and many others.
I mentioned, I am not familiar with Victory arrows, but I think that 350 spine is assuming glue-in target points. The 27gr outsert would weaken that.
Impression I got looking at website and in program, is your arrow appears to be more for target/3D and maybe not stiff enough when used for high performance, higher poundage hunting bows.......again, right or wrong, just my impression.

In the program, I think it showed optimal spine for your set-up at about .310, and the 27" I inputted calc'd weak. Adjusting for 28" would be even weaker.
I really like the OnTarget program, but it, just as manufacture spine charts are, is only a calculated starting point for what might really work for the shooter and his set-up.



For example of what program (& spine charts) show for my set-ups vs actual field use, my old '96 Firecat (actually another Martin in program that was very similar) showed optimal spine at .3426
I had been shooting Beman ICS Camo Hunter 400/125gr pts with it. Per the program these were too weak, but I got great flight from them with both fld points and broadheads.......that arrow starting at 245fps, quietly blew right thru a 3x4 mulie buck I shot at 45yds.

My '09 Martin Bengal as set-up (see specs in signature below) shows claimed optimal spine at a similar .3470, shot that same 400 arrow out of it at 262fps, but indicated weak flight when tuning. I was able to get target points to fly ok, but broadhead went wild, planing off several inches high/right.....over 8" off at 40yds.

Same day, exact same arrow, would still fly true out of the old Firecat. Also had stiffer Beman 340 with me, that I was "suppose to" use in the Firecat, and those shot fine out of both bows, using same fld point and broadhead.
(FYI: (3) 4" AAE helical vanes on all my arrows)

Ehunter
09-04-2010, 02:11 PM
Fast recap on this thread. Victory changed their arrows, now using a half-outsert, and pin nocks. So that's got the arrow weight up to just over 400 gr. Still shooting a 350 spine, and 68# draw weight @ 28.25in. Arrows shooting like bullets now. Even though it seems wrong to me, it looks like my problem before was shooting too heavy of a spine. Weird, but that's how it's wroked out. 4 inch broadheads groups at 50 yards. Can't argue with that. Thanks to all that helped!

bfisher
09-04-2010, 06:19 PM
Thanks for reporting back. Nice of you to do so and thank everybody that helped you. Now have fun and go do some hunting.

Destroyer
09-04-2010, 06:50 PM
my problem before was shooting too heavy of a spine.

Or the heavier shaft is more stable, the new half-outsert might be aligning better too.


Weird, but that's how it's wroked out.

As long as it works who cares.