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Ehunter
10-15-2010, 05:00 PM
Well, the 2011 limbs are not indestructible. About a month ago, my Firecat broke it's original limbs, and Martin updated me to the 2011's. Everything was shooting fine until tonight. First time I drew back, crack. Bottom limb has a 2 1/2 inch crack in it. I had already shot roughly 800 arrows with the new limbs since I got them, and hadn't changed a thing on the bow after initial set-up and tuning. Just wanted to fling a few practice arrows tonight before going out deer hunting tomorrow morning. Bow was set at 68# 28 1/2 inch draw. Shooting 398 Gr. arrows. 289 fps on my chrony. Looks like it's back to the Moab for another season.

Destroyer
10-15-2010, 05:43 PM
Real sorry to here that. Can you post a pic?

Ehunter
10-16-2010, 08:15 AM
Here's a couple pics. Crack has elongated just sitting in the case. Doubled in size since it happened last night. That scares the hell out of me. No tension, nothing, and it keeps growing longer?

alex
10-16-2010, 10:21 AM
Everybody says the problem is with the limbs, but i'm starting to think it's with the cams. Adjusted at a certain spot they just kill the limbs set after set. What the more experienced archers think about this?

Montalaar
10-16-2010, 11:05 AM
The SAME spot as on the 2010 limbs. I do not think that it is a limb problem either. It does not matter wether it is a solid limb or a multilayer limb. Those limbs are all cracking in the same spot in the same way. You see a split running parallel to the limb intersecting it in an 1/3 and a 2/3 part.

I am not sure if it is the Cam, but it is possible. I think there is a 'sweet spot' in which the combination of agressive Cam and critical limb deflection where it breaks the limb. But i am no technician at all.

NeilM
10-16-2010, 11:30 AM
It would be interesting to get some high speed (slow motion) video of that bow / limb / cam combination and see what is happening after release and also after the arrow is launched.

I have seen this done with other bows and the vibration and recoil that happens after the arrow is launched is incredible.

alex
10-16-2010, 11:39 AM
The SAME spot as on the 2010 limbs.

The 2008 and 2009 too :(
I'd like to know what was the % of the broken limbs of the Slayer with Nitrous cams for example, compared to the Firecats.

Montalaar
10-16-2010, 11:42 AM
There were likely to be none. The Nitrous-Cam is not as aggressive as the CAT-Cam. I broke a 2006 limb. But it broke at the middle of the limb. And that was with the old design in a time when limbs traveled very far.

Ehunter
10-16-2010, 12:44 PM
My original limbs, 2009 version, split right down the middle basically. Cracked both limbs when it happened too. This time, It just cracked the bottom limb. I didn't have the cams wound as tight as last time, and gave up about 12 fps in doing so. Just trying to stay on the safe side. Spent all day getting the Moab back in shooting form, and me as well. Never realised how different the two bows shoot.

gibson 787
10-16-2010, 01:51 PM
I think there is a 'sweet spot'

I agree, there likely is a 'sweet spot' where a number of events combine to cause the limb failures such as cam rotation, suggested by Alex. I think that DL, how far the limbs have been wound down and even the shooters anchor point are other factors that should also be taken into consideration. I wonder if it would be worthwhile for Martin to produce a form that must be completed by all who require limb replacement and be included with the returned limbs. The form asks the shooter a number of questions on what we are discussing. With a little research, they may just be able to pinpoint that 'sweet spot' and act accordingly.

I have no idea what % of limb failures there are, it may even be acceptable to Martin, I don't know. I do know however that Martin is not alone with the problem.

One thing which keeps popping up in my head, is the area where 99% of the cracks occur (limb fork), is much thicker on my Alien X. I see now that the new 2011 limbs are thicker in the fork area than the 2010 limbs, but still not as thick as those on the Alien. To date, I have never heard of any limb failures on Aliens.

Like most of us, I am not a techy either.

Simple Life
10-16-2010, 04:33 PM
Has Martin ever gave anyone reasons to why so many limb failures?
I feel your pain EHunter,at least you have a back-up.:).Next month ,I am gonna re-order my limbs for my Martin.Do you guys think maybe they are pushing the speed to much for the limbs?I would just like to hear what Martin thinks the problem is.

Destroyer
10-16-2010, 05:00 PM
Everybody says the problem is with the limbs, but i'm starting to think it's with the cams.

If you mean that the design is too much for the limbs & manufacturing to handle the stress then I would say you might be correct. Quality control is a factor otherwise every bow would be failing too if it was a design problem alone. I don't think the cat's are more aggressive than other manufactures cams, especial PSE's.


No tension, nothing, and it keeps growing longer?

There is a clue right there. The limbs are made under pressure so what ever they use to hold it together has a quality control issue, bad batch, etc.



I wonder if it would be worthwhile for Martin to produce a form

Don't think it would make a difference mate, is there a real problem?



To date, I have never heard of any limb failures on Aliens.

Different manufacturer and yes different design. ;)

Ehunter
10-16-2010, 05:19 PM
The limbs I had were the 2011. Original limbs were 2009. I'm thinking that they had the right idea of thickening the limbs at the fork, but then they narrowed the entire limb, making it virtually the same strength as before or weaker? Just an idea, since these limbs didn't last nearly as long as the original limbs, and should have been under less stress. Damned if I know, and I think Martin is in the same boat. Need to look at the new line up for Martin this year, but I'm thinking Rytera Alien X might be the way to go. Sadly, I got addicted to the speed of the Firecat over my Moab. Maybe I should go back to my Browning Cobra, laminated wood compound, shooting around 4fps. lol

gibson 787
10-16-2010, 07:08 PM
I'm thinking that they had the right idea of thickening the limbs at the fork, but then they narrowed the entire limb, making it virtually the same strength as before or weaker

I actually believe that narrowing the limb helps in preventing failures because it lessens limb twist, which is the primary cause of cracks in the fork. The cables are closer to centre if the limbs are narrower. I still believe that the 'meatier' the limbs are in the fork area, the less they are going to twist.

Anyway, I hope you get satisfaction one way or the other.

Destroyer
10-16-2010, 09:59 PM
I'm thinking Rytera Alien X might be the way to go.

With Barnsdales on, I would have to say a 'yes' for the alien too. :)

Ehunter
10-17-2010, 01:29 AM
Is it basically the Firecat, or is it all the bows with the Cat cams that are having this problem? I haven't heard much about the Warthog or Firehawk having limb problems. If it's just the Firecat, maybe it's the combination of ATA and those cams that's causing it. With the Firehawk being shorter, and Warthog being longer, maybe it's vibration or something in just the Firecats?

Montalaar
10-17-2010, 02:15 AM
No, it isn't the FireCat only.

There have been some issues with the Warthog as well. And there are some people who broke a dozen of limbs on the ShadowCat. As far as i know only Cat 2.0 Cams on the ShadowCat. And there have been no further issues since Martin has announced new string and cable lengths.

I am pretty sure that some of the limb issues could be solced with .5" longer cables and strings. Less preload on the limb. That could cause a little bit more vibration and will cause a longer AtA.

rongcp
10-17-2010, 03:53 AM
I remember back when I was having all the limb problems with my Firecat you would chime in and tell me how long you've had yours with no problem and I hoped you were one of the lucky ones. Well I had my Firecat for a total of 8 months and had 4 limbs crack on me in the same place. Martin finally accomadated me with an Alien X and its been now 6 months and NO problems and it shoots good and just as fast as my Firecat. Hope all ends well for you.

Ehunter
10-17-2010, 07:14 AM
Yeah, it looks like I spoke too soon back then. lol I guess the bright side is, the original limbs did hold up for 8-9 months. 2nd set made it one month. Kinda got me wondering about what they are going to do to solve this problem. Not like I will change limbs every month. lol Glad to hear your Alien is shooting well and holding up. Think I might be looking to go that route myself.

alex
10-17-2010, 09:08 AM
If you mean that the design is too much for the limbs & manufacturing to handle the stress then I would say you might be correct.

That's right :D

dragonsfire311
10-17-2010, 03:57 PM
hopefully the 2011 failure was a fluke and there wont be as many problems as with the 2010's.

Destroyer
10-17-2010, 04:10 PM
I had my Firecat for a total of 8 months and had 4 limbs crack on me in the same place.

When I see this it really makes me think its a riser problem, unless there is a bad batch of limbs and you get stuck with them each time.


I am pretty sure that some of the limb issues could be solced with .5" longer cables and strings. Less preload on the limb. That could cause a little bit more vibration and will cause a longer AtA.

Could help, only draw back is the draw weight loss. But if you order a 75# and drop it down to 70#.........;)

I don't think vibration would be an issue at all.

jj141979
10-17-2010, 04:53 PM
I just bought a 2010 Cheetah directly from Martin ( Dealer had to order) took 2 weeks to get!!!
how can you tell if you have the 2011 limbs????

Montalaar
10-17-2010, 10:13 PM
When I see this it really makes me think its a riser problem, unless there is a bad batch of limbs and you get stuck with them each time.



Could help, only draw back is the draw weight loss. But if you order a 75# and drop it down to 70#.........;)

I don't think vibration would be an issue at all.

If you make cables and strings 0.5" longer you will need limbs with a deflection that is around one number and one letter higher to give the same draw weight. 4l -> 5m

Hutch~n~Son Archery
10-18-2010, 12:41 PM
I just bought a 2010 Cheetah directly from Martin ( Dealer had to order) took 2 weeks to get!!!
how can you tell if you have the 2011 limbs????

There is a date either on the side or bottom (most likely on the bottom) of the limb where the limb bolt is, so you'll probably have to loosen your limbs all the way up to see it.

Montalaar
10-18-2010, 12:57 PM
2010 limbs had a red layer on one side.

2011 limbs are all carbon dipped.

timtim146
10-18-2010, 01:16 PM
Yeah everyone knows how much I love martin bows but this broken limb thing has to stop. I mean I can understand little things happening to the bows but broken limbs on so many of these bows? That is a horrible thing. I just don't understand why martin has always had a limb problem and never really fixed it. If these limbs of theirs are so good then they should not be cracking with these numbers. On the other hand my cheetah is great :)

Ehunter
10-18-2010, 01:18 PM
The "2011" replacement limbs I got a month or so ago had a white section under the limb bolt hole, across the limb. One side marked 4H, the other 5/10 Kinda makes me think I got 2010 limbs.....But was told they were 2011.....

Hutch~n~Son Archery
10-18-2010, 01:25 PM
Kinda makes me think I got 2010 limbs.....But was told they were 2011.....

Bow manufacturers are just like car manufacturers. The car is built in 2010 but labeled as a 2011. I never could understand this.:confused:

Montalaar
10-18-2010, 01:28 PM
You need to build a car before sending it out. How can you have parts in stock if you do not build them previous to put them there? ;)

Everyone wants the finished product as soon as 2011 starts. Imagine the companies had to produce everything for 2011 from 1st january on. ;)

Hutch~n~Son Archery
10-18-2010, 01:33 PM
You need to build a car before sending it out. How can you have parts in stock if you do not build them previous to put them there? ;)

Everyone wants the finished product as soon as 2011 starts. Imagine the companies had to produce everything for 2011 from 1st january on. ;)

Never thought of that lol.:D

Ehunter
10-19-2010, 01:25 AM
Well said, but now I feel like an idiot. lol