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madlaz
11-08-2010, 05:54 AM
Just thought to pass this along since its from the sister site Archery Talkj.If any one wants to learn bow tuning that even a cave man can understad.Check out in General archery discussin sticky:Poll New To Bow Tuning Looking for guidelines this has got more info that is amazing I know lots of you guys Know Nuts and Bolts check out what he has to say if you cant learn anything about bow tuning from this thread give up archery.

Spiker
11-08-2010, 07:09 AM
Sure hope Alan is still going to publish it all in a book!

hotrod26
11-08-2010, 01:59 PM
Please post the complete site address. I can't seem to find doing a search.
Thanks

RobD
11-08-2010, 02:59 PM
Please post the complete site address. I can't seem to find doing a search.
Thanks
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/index.php

SonnyThomas
11-08-2010, 05:56 PM
I watched the now Sticky develope. There are so many replies that it takes a bit to get through.

SonnyThomas
11-08-2010, 07:46 PM
I did a flash through of the replies. Some I've read a long time ago. Of Javi's Draw stop timing for Hoyts, I've been doing that for some time. I even spoke with Javi. We had a long conversation. Super great guy and coach.

In case I ramble on and forget, the thread is a good one. Is a new bow tuning book needed? You bet. What books are available seem from years back and readily seen are bows from the same years back.

I think I have put the following link up before. You have to register just like any site, like this one. Lot's of info here. www.dudleyarchery.info.

No one should be intimidated with what is there. I noticed one comment about some paying $16.00 for having his strings put and no way the bow mechanic could do all that nuts&bolts had related of. Well, some of what nuts&bolts has just comes without thought. Okay, you do it enough and you just do it. When problems arise then time and effort coming into being. It can be intimidating and frustrating. Other things within nuts&bolts bow tuning is not necessarily necessary. It depends upon how deep you want to tune your bow. I've some bows that are just put together and well get the job done. I have other bows where I got really, really finicky. Bow where I wanted it, I finished it off with French tuning and then played with nock and vertical rest setting to see if groups could be tightened. The Dudley site had this.

Note; The first time I used French tuning I went on take Champion in Senior Adult Free Style in my first ever IAA State Field Championship. Okay, I got lucky, but then cleaning the 80 yard Walk Up sure made me feel good. 5 inch bull's eye from 80, 70, 60 and 50 yards. Yep, me felt real good.

I did like the example of the used bow, draw length too long. I may not have read it fully enough to say something is missing, but different cams systems come into play. You can't just twist up the bow string and make the draw length shorter. Shortening the draw length is actually rotating the cam or cams. You rotate the cams and the draw stops hit sooner. Here, say a one of the double cam bows, you need to twist the bow string X amount and untwist the buss and control cable. I've done this with the help of M&R Strings. I needed to shorten a bow by almost 2 inches. According to M&R, double cam bows, 4 full twists of the bow string requires the cables to be untwisted 1 full twist. Here, I maintained ata and draw weight and reduce the draw length. We then took measurements of the strings and had a set made to correct needed length with proper amount of twists.

Note; There have been some threads on how to get more out of your bow. Caution is needed with these and using your brain. I once tried the "make your Pearson go faster." I followed the instructions, even had a Pearson staff shooter present. Yep, sure made the Z34 Pearson faster, but then draw weight went up! Duh?!!! The staff shooter went back to the "think tank." I never heard another word about this "make it go faster" method.

Today I just about wrecked a bow and myself with it. Right now I'm still ticked off (I would really like to use a more profane word or words). Bow is brought to me for new strings. Okay order and delivery time. Strings finally arrive and then I get a call wanting a "rush job" on the bow. Well, pardon me. That #%@* should have thought about his bow well before deer season. Anyway, I jump on the bow. Strings on, top wheel lean corrected. Uses of levels to set up the bow and I was pretty much done. No problems. Next, I put on new tubing for his peep. So I check to be sure the tubing is not over stressed. Okay, you want the tubing long enough it is not overly stressed, but short enough that it aligns the peep. I hook on the "S" hook hanging from the ceiling and draw down the bow. Wham! What the H___! Did one on the strings slip out of it's groove? I let up real easy and the bow doesn't really respond. Finally, it starts to let down. I look things over, find nothing and try again. Same #@# thing. Whoa?!!! Now what, no wall to speak of, spongy to beat the band. I let up and again have to wait for the bow to respond, let down. Okay, it's a Fred Bear bow, a bow make that I normally don't work on. I have a used Fred Bear, a lefty. I start comparing. Lo and behold, no draw stop module! Yes, module. It bolts in place like a draw length module. Imagine drawing a bow and then at the normal drop off into the valley you drop off into nothing, nearly 100% letoff. Disgusted, I start to look over the buss cable. It's got a kink in it from the sharp edge where the module is to butt up to. Had I pulled any harder I could have cut the cable into AND right in my face.

Rambled on enough...more than enough. Again, nuts&bolts has a lot of good info there. Use it to help you, not give you headaches.

madlaz
11-09-2010, 04:21 AM
Sonny you can get the pdf file or word document for that thread ask Tim for it then you donot have to go through all the threads then you can even print it out its great and is free.

madlaz
11-09-2010, 04:37 AM
Sonny the thread i mentioned was to answer the most basic questions but i have read a lot of your threads and i know you are an expert tuner and archer you probably forgot more than most learn . keep up the good threads i have learned a lot from you also thanks .Laz

SonnyThomas
11-09-2010, 06:30 AM
Sonny the thread i mentioned was to answer the most basic questions but i have read a lot of your threads and i know you are an expert tuner and archer you probably forgot more than most learn . keep up the good threads i have learned a lot from you also thanks .Laz

I wish I could say that. There are days when the world is nothing but black, trip over a shadow on the ground. Oh yeah, I get up, shoot a few warm ups and the next I know I can't the broad side of a barn with me on the inside.

Yeah, and if shooting a national event you have to have 35 yards down pat. Those practice areas at the nationals. Well, they are good for only one thing, warming up. Like If you're not "on" before you get to a big event you're not going to "get on" practicing there. Rarely do I use the practice area. Stretching, surgical tubing works. Seeing the shot in your mind works.

Tuning? Tuning is nothing but following the manual and then learning a few tricks along the way. With the proper equipment on hand taking apart and putting a bow together is a piece of cake. Again, once you begin working on bows a lot of things get so easy you do it without thinking.

Tuning? I have shake my head at times. People worry about changing stuff in the midst of deer hunting, even put it off, live with a problem until after deer season. I developed a shoulder problem and then fell on the same shoulder this last week. Saturday morning a deer came in and I could barely get to full draw. Of course the shot goes to H__ in a hand basket. What to do? Turn down the draw weight, about 5 pounds, maybe 10 fps loss and no big deal. What happens? Arrow ain't behaving. 20 minutes later the corrective adjustment is in place, just a tweak of the arrow rest. Another 20 minutes and I have figured out the flight of my arrow for my single pin setup. Yes, a single fixed pin and good out to 35 yards. I test my fixed broadhead and it is pin point deadly.

justin
11-09-2010, 01:46 PM
exactly sonny..... tinkering isnt too hard alot of times

justin
11-09-2010, 02:54 PM
ok when timing my cam i finally got a tape measure on my bow and found my ata was just under 29.5. that was measuring center of the axel to center of the axel. sooooo....... i need to make some adjustments yeah? any really quick tips.....

SonnyThomas
11-09-2010, 03:15 PM
exactly sonny..... tinkering isnt too hard alot of times

Egzactly (smile). Tinkering can be good. You can find out how easy something is and tune your bow that little extra. Take the arrow rest; Most can be raised or lowered and remain within the desired Berger hole area. Yes, area. (I don't like to be low of the center of the Berger hole and prefer that the center of the arrow diameter not be above the top of the Berger hole - just me). Why move the rest up or down? Arrow guidance and/or to see if your arrow groups can be tightened. Sure tears down the magical bullet hole.
Bullet holes? Such much BS, but then can be desired. Once upon a time (got to start the story some way) it was desired to have a slightly high and left tear for righties and high and right for lefties. Why? This was to make the arrow correct itself the same way each and every time. It doesn't take much thinking to understand there is some truth here.
Ahhh...my much beloved Ole War Horse, my 2000 Hoyt UltraTec. This has the by design built in overdraw shelf. I used 25 3/4" arrows and me with a 29" draw. No matter what my setup gave a nasty right hand tear. Nasty as in over a 2" tear to the right and a bit high. This setup placed and won a bunch of 3Ds and took first in the local indoor hunter class 11 weeks in a row. Sort of wrecks the perfect tuned bow, doesn't it? It does and it doesn't, but I believe this; Bow Tuning Is Secondary. Why? Give someone a perfectly tuned bow and he or she may not shoot their way out of a wet paper bag. Give a good shooter and half way descent tuned bow and they'll kick your behind so hard you'll have to go back to last Wednesday to pick yourself up. That's why I in one of my replies; Use the above tuning thread to help you, not give you headaches.

SonnyThomas
11-09-2010, 03:28 PM
ok when timing my cam i finally got a tape measure on my bow and found my ata was just under 29.5. that was measuring center of the axel to center of the axel. sooooo....... i need to make some adjustments yeah? any really quick tips.....

Factory given ata specs are approximate. The rule is if the max. listed draw weight is there then ata is within specs. Give or take 1/8" on any spec is generally within limits, however the overall industry for ata standards can have a greater +/- tolerance zone. It is no different than max. draw weight. Normally bows will have the max. listed draw weight or a bit more, up to 2 pounds. Factories know shooters don't want to be shorted on draw weight.

Trying to remember; My 05 Old Glory Bowtech birth certificate had 60.9 pounds of draw weight given. My 06 ProElite is supposed to have a 37 3/4" ata, but has 71 pounds of draw weight though listed at 70 pounds of draw and it's ata is 37 7/8".

Hope this helps.

justin
11-09-2010, 03:43 PM
lol it sure does!!!!!! :D i would love to spend an afternoon with someone who shoots and tunes alot....... or at least is good at it. hahahha, but yeah thanks sonny!!!!


i tend to get answers about how to shoot that are not very descriptive.... i think i got some of the basics down....

SonnyThomas
11-09-2010, 07:39 PM
lol it sure does!!!!!! :D i would love to spend an afternoon with someone who shoots and tunes alot....... or at least is good at it. hahahha, but yeah thanks sonny!!!!

i tend to get answers about how to shoot that are not very descriptive.... i think i got some of the basics down....

Descriptive? Well, everyone is a bit different. If you want, PM me and we give it a shot. Of course, I don't know where you live from me, probably too far. The shop I work at is in Banner, Illinois, 25 miles bit west, south west of Peoria, Illinois.

justin
11-10-2010, 04:04 PM
lol im in central iowa, so your nor across the country!!! lol looks like your about a 4 hour drive away from me. :)
the conpany i work for even has a branch in peoria. lol we only have 5 branches.

anyway, retarded my cam a bit the other night and tonight got the chrono out and shot. with my limbs bottomed i was shooting 296fps with a 396 grain 400 spline aarow and 293 with a 410 grain 300 spline aarow. backed my limb bolts out one turn each and got 285ish and backed them out another turn for 274 fps with the 410 grain aarow. thats roughly 64# draw at 30 inches.

now that ive recovered from my prefall flu/cold, ive found that the maxed DW of my bow is no problem at all again, and am thinking of turning it back up but....... no one else seems to be getting the speeds im getting out of the accutrack cam. im not running limbsaves or string silencers of any kind though. im gunna go put some in quick and see what it does to my fps. maybe some limbsavers tomarrow.

retarding my cam did get most of the "martin sound" out of my bow though.
my question.... do you guys think im pulling more than 70 lbs dw? doesnt feel any more than my freinds tr2 at 67lbs.... and its a good 20 fps faster than the tr2

anyway, yeah...


EDIT:tr2 is only 28 draw length though...

Brem
11-10-2010, 06:08 PM
Your bubby's TR2 is not right. Your Cheetah at 30" 70# and his TR2 at 28" 67# should be shooting identical speeds or very close with the same weight arrow. If he is 20fps off its out of spec and out of tune.

justin
11-10-2010, 06:20 PM
he did say his cams werent timed quite right. he just got new cables and maybe modules. he has green cables and a yellow string. lol ill ask if he ended up geting it tuned. he wont know how fast it is though because i repoed my chrono :D but like i said, not many peoples cheetas are as fast as mine. i just put silences back on it though so it might have slowed down a bunch

SonnyThomas
11-10-2010, 06:26 PM
[QUOTE=justin;34134] with my limbs bottomed i was shooting 296fps with a 396 grain 400 spline aarow and 293 with a 410 grain 300 spline aarow. backed my limb bolts out one turn each and got 285ish and backed them out another turn for 274 fps with the 410 grain aarow. thats roughly 64# draw at 30 inches.

limbsaves///silencers/// see what it does to my fps.

retarding my cam did get most of the "martin sound" out of my bow though.
my question.... do you guys think im pulling more than 70 lbs dw? doesnt feel any more than my freinds tr2 at 67lbs.... and its a good 20 fps faster than the tr2
QUOTE]

If I figured correctly, with limbs bottomed out, you're real close to factory listed fps. Two turns out, I don't believe lowers draw weight 7 pounds. I may be wrong though. It's just when I figured the fps, arrow weight and poundage the fps was a bit high, about 14 fps too high.

Limb Savers won't effect speed. String silencers properly placed may or may not effect speed, but look for 2 to 7 fps.

No info on your bud's arrows I really can't say.

justin
11-10-2010, 06:40 PM
my silencers are about 1.5 inches from the cam/idler wheel, and holy crap did it quiet the bow down. sounds like.....well super quiet. will limbsavers make it quieter yet? and right now i have an x coil (i think its a limbsaver unit) stabilizer but the bow feels a bit tail heavy on the release. im thinking a longer heavier stabilizer might even it out a bit. not having any accuracy issues though. ~shrugs~

justin
11-11-2010, 04:13 PM
oh his aarows? he was shooting 398 grain Aarows and i think they were 340 spline..... 67lbs on the bow scale maxed out and his mods set to 28 inches.

well i didnt want to do it but its dark. indoor range in the garage!! see what my fps dropped to with silencers....

justin
11-11-2010, 04:55 PM
so i set up a makeshift range outside in the yardlight...... and i started with just the silencers i put on last night. my 396 grain 400 spline aarows were shooing about 296 with just a loop and no tubing peep. with the silencers i dropped to a 293 average. added limbsavers and shot again, for a 291 average. so i shot my 360 grain 400 spline aarows for a 298 average. its now quieter than i ever thought it could be, and still fast!! consistancey over the chrono was +/- 1 fps with all of the arrows, and i have another one to look for, cause it blew right through my target....

anyway im way impressed with my 360 dollar bow!!

hopefully the cheetah put martin in the consumers minds.

lol i hope the exile outperforms the 2010 cheetah, but i have my doubts :D

justin
11-12-2010, 07:38 PM
i read the whole tuning thread....... lol wow!!!

SonnyThomas
11-13-2010, 05:24 AM
i read the whole tuning thread....... lol wow!!!

Yep. More stuff than you know what to do with...and maybe shouldn't.

I found that a shooter bow to have just have fun with is nicer than worrying about the least little thing. Okay, a bow doesn't have to be perfect, you do....

I would quote Bernie Pellerite, Professional Level IV Master Coach; "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form, and if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant."

Bernie has a new book coming out soon. Update of Idiot Proof Archery.

justin
11-13-2010, 07:29 AM
yeah. i suspect its sorta like tuning a racecar. there is alot you can do, but if you cant drive, it all becomes irrelivant.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
11-13-2010, 08:58 AM
Yep. More stuff than you know what to do with...and maybe shouldn't.

I found that a shooter bow to have just have fun with is nicer than worrying about the least little thing. Okay, a bow doesn't have to be perfect, you do....

I would quote Bernie Pellerite, Professional Level IV Master Coach; "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form, and if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant."

Bernie has a new book coming out soon. Update of Idiot Proof Archery.

Yep if you hit the broad side of a barn. Tend to your form a little and you can hit the fly on the broad side of a barn.:D:D:D

SonnyThomas
11-13-2010, 03:21 PM
Yep if you and hit the broad side of a barn. Tend to your form a little and you can hit the fly on the broad side of a barn.:D:D:D

Speaking of barns, hay, straw, you know that blanking bale shooting? You don't use a bull's eye to aim. Hitting a target should be a snap. :D