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justin
11-20-2010, 11:12 AM
ok im really having problems tuning my alien.....
its mostly my centershot. while frech tuning my rest ends up way over by my riser. my best luck has been just eyeballing everything and shooting. i can do better groups at 50 yards with my cheetah than i can at 20 with my alien. talk about frustrating!!!!

SonnyThomas
11-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Justin, give some info; Bow set and arrow set up. If the arrows are not compatible then you will have problems.

French tuning can be confusing to begin with. Tell us what you did.

Here's the step;
Sight in at 9 feet, arrow consistently hitting within a small circle.
Don't move the sight.
Move to a distance that will allow arrows to hit near the circle your shooting at - this height wise. This distance may be 50 yards and further. Or have vertical line drawn and not really worry about where the arrows hit vertically.
Again, you don't move the sight.
Shoot a group...ignore fliers or call outs. Shoot another to insure horizontal placement of arrows.
Which ever way the group is off, move the rest a tiny bit the other way. If left move rest to the right, a tiny bit.
You then start over. Sight in at 9 feet and follow the steps. Finish is hitting dead center at 9 feet and whatever distance you use. Again, you never move the sight except when starting the process over.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
11-20-2010, 06:23 PM
Justin, give some info; Bow set and arrow set up. If the arrows are not compatible then you will have problems.

French tuning can be confusing to begin with. Tell us what you did.

Here's the step;
Sight in at 9 feet, arrow consistently hitting within a small circle.
Don't move the sight.
Move to a distance that will allow arrows to hit near the circle your shooting at - this height wise. This distance may be 50 yards and further. Or have vertical line drawn and not really worry about where the arrows hit vertically.
Again, you don't move the sight.
Shoot a group...ignore fliers or call outs. Shoot another to insure horizontal placement of arrows.
Which ever way the group is off, move the rest a tiny bit the other way. If left move rest to the right, a tiny bit.
You then start over. Sight in at 9 feet and follow the steps. Finish is hitting dead center at 9 feet and whatever distance you use. Again, you never move the sight except when starting the process over.

Great advise Sonny he'll be hitting perfect,;)

Ehunter
11-21-2010, 04:00 AM
Is there some advantage to tuning this way over paper tuning?

SonnyThomas
11-21-2010, 07:06 AM
Is there some advantage to tuning this way over paper tuning?

Paper tuning is step in tuning a bow for center shot. Some may use just paper tuning and be happy. French tuning is refining center shot to perfection. The longer the distance you can shoot the more precise center shot can be set. Always the first step is 9 feet and set the sight. When testing for center shot error, with the same sight setting and if your bow will allow the arrow to hit a target (bale) at 90 yards, use 90 yards.

French tuning is not necessary for everyone. Long distance shooters would more benefit, Outdoor target (60 yards) or Field (80 yards). Walk Back tuning will suffice for most archers. There is also a modified French tuning that is closer up. These tuning procedures help find and correct center shot error that some people could otherwise live with.

I think Field more benefits from French tuning and I'm sure there are other archery events. I say Field because Field has ranges as close as 20 feet and as above, out to 80 yards.

justin
11-21-2010, 08:35 PM
well it was rainy and crappy today, so i didnt shoot....
as far as aarows, im shooting gold tip 7595 hunter xt. should be 340 spline, and by what ive read should be about right for deflection. (30and 9/16 long, 100grain feild points, and 410 grn ttl aarow weight)

i moved the apache over to the x, and the cord is adjusted ok. one thing ive noticed that on these particular cams the shooting string runs in the track farthest from the riser... so i started with my center shot out just a bit from the center to compensate.... but what im ending up with is my aarow, string and sight not being inline when everything is sighted. and some dirty aarow flight. (everything is paralelle, but my aarow hits left)

also it was really cold last time i attempted to tune. affected my consentration and my "zone"
and my target is mostly shot out. leaving me with about a soccer ball sized spot i can hit without a complete pass through and an aarow in the yard.

after 3 in the yard, i looked a little for them, got frustrated, put my stuff up and decided a target should be at the top of the list, then tuning...... ~end rant~

Spiker
11-22-2010, 04:46 AM
Try starting out with your rest set so at brace the center of your arrow is 7/8" out from the bridge between the berger holes, arrow is centered on the berger holes and nock set on the string is square (level).
At Brace - everything probably wont look like it all lines up (arrow will be pointing right, sight will be a bit left) but it should be very close to giving you good arrow flight when you shoot.

SonnyThomas
11-22-2010, 05:22 AM
What Spiker said, not always, but most of the time, string aligned to the groove in the top cam/wheel, the arrow may show a just a tiny bit to the inside and when looking at the sight pin it will be a bit out from the string.
Of all the bows I've had only one or two ever had the sight pin directly in line with the string when finished tuned.

Ehunter
11-22-2010, 03:22 PM
Ok, Sonny and Spiker have me on tuning, but I can help with the arrows in the yard. lol I also had a pass through problem when I switched to a Firecat last year. I bought a cheap metal detector, and just sweep the yard behind the target with it. It's already paid for itself in found arrows. I hear a beep, then take a dull knife, cut through the dirt about 3-4 inches deep in a foot long line between the beep and the target.

justin
11-22-2010, 04:02 PM
i hear it works really great with aluminum aarows.... havent tried in my yard but my buddys has too much iorn floating around in it for it to work! he uses a garden weeding tool......

but yeah..... havent been back out....
:D

Ehunter
11-23-2010, 02:05 PM
Works very well with carbons too. It'll pick up the inserts and field points easily. I've found arrows that got lost in the yard years ago, and been buried under more dirt and grass than I could imagine.

justin
11-23-2010, 02:48 PM
im heading over to my buddys now who has the metal detector now to check out his sons deer. pic looks like a big 7 point! ill see if i can barrow his detector/ i will probably paper tune while there. he has a good setup for paper tuning. and after that i might refine with a french tune, or i might leave it :)

RobD
11-24-2010, 05:21 PM
My friend Jason just got his 2010 Alien X today. He calls me up to ask me to tune his bow because he spend 3 hours trying to set center shot and paper tune it.He said he keeps getting a high left tear on paper.

Set bow in draw board set cams Timing

Creep Tuned it for fine tune cam timing.

I take his bow Eye ball his center shot.

Go back to 20 yds set sight pin.

Take and put deer country fix broadheads on 3 of his arrows. And leave leave 3 field points on 3 arrows. I used the deer counrty BH because I BH tuned my bow with them and they hit exact the same spot as FP up to 40 yds. So I knew the were a good BH to tune with.

Shot 3 Bh and 3 FP From 20 yds

Made 4 adjustments to the rest

Shot the 3 and 3 again at 20 yds. They hit perfect.

Then set 20 yd pin Again. Step back to 30 yds set 30 yd pin.

Shot 3 BH 3 FP Moved rest very very little.

Shot 3 BH and 3 FP again at 30 yds

Handed him the Bow and told him it was tuned.Told him he might have to move his sight but maybe not. He says you didn't even paper tune it. How do you know that its going to hit bullets holes threw paper.
I said It most likely will but if it doesn't it doesn't matter. But your BH and FP are hitting same place at 20 and 30 yds. What more can you want.

So I set up the paper. Set him 6 Ft from it. He shoots, left tear. Shoots again left tear. And again left tear. Looks at me and says why is it still getting a left tear, I said not sure, Let me see the bow. I step back 6 ft shoot perfect bullet hole first shot. I told him that most likely he is torquing the bow.

I had to go pick my daughter up so I had to quit there.

Just figured I'd post how I tuned his Alien X.

Have to say That bow is a shooter. I Really like it.

justin
11-24-2010, 06:18 PM
my cam timing is a lil off :D i had it shooting near perfect bullet holes.... with a horrible looking rest...lol i need to spend a little more time but its cold out lol

Arrow Splitter
11-25-2010, 10:10 AM
i need to spend a little more time but its cold out lol

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. How does 25 degrees sound? I can't sit in the tree stand for too long at that temperature.:eek:

justin
11-27-2010, 06:14 AM
sounds alot like iowa lol. im done in the feild, for now i guess, still might do late muzzle. i need so scope out some better spots in town. there are 46 more doe tags to fill......

justin
12-11-2010, 01:45 PM
so i got my alien all dialed in now.... its amazing how just a little tweaking with your peep and kisser can make all the diffenance in the world. im back to the rock solid hold i had on my cheetah! woot. lol all of that for 5 fps and 1 inch ata :)

Hutch~n~Son Archery
12-11-2010, 01:55 PM
Sometimes it takes a few minutes or hours but it is worth the trouble to dial in the bow and hit where you are aiming.
Hutch

Arrow Splitter
12-11-2010, 03:22 PM
so i got my alien all dialed in now.... its amazing how just a little tweaking with your peep and kisser can make all the diffenance in the world. im back to the rock solid hold i had on my cheetah! woot. lol all of that for 5 fps and 1 inch ata :)

The little things count, especially in compound bows. One little thing wrong can cause major accuracy problems.

justin
12-26-2010, 07:55 AM
ok at the insistance that im retarded for overdrawing a lil, i shortened my draw length down to around 27.5. droped my pull poundage to around 60, and started shooting a lighter splined aarow. changed my focus a little from sights only to grip or hold, and bowhand alignment. making sure im keeping my elbow up, and inline, and finally after all of that comes together, back to sights. i cant hold quite as steady like this but my consistancy is up, and after tuning im shooting through my berger holes and my aarow string and sightpins are all in the same plane. all of my bows shock is gone, the left torque on the aftershot is gone. and im working on my release as well. trying to keep it clean with no jerk or punch. just slowly squeezing my release, and holding and the shot just happens, sometimes not at the right time, but mostly the right time. consistancy with practice right? so hopefully im on the right road to tearing up the 10 ring. im really hoping to do a bunch of 3d this spring, and be good. i know your not suposed to just be good your first year but i want to get the jump on everyone via alot of off season practice.

thanks sonny, huch, barry, and everyone else! please keep the tips coming and ill do my best to listen!!

EDIT: ive decided that my alien must be a 2009 as it has barnsdale limbs, as described by the white lines on the side and 3 digit deflection numbers.

SonnyThomas
12-26-2010, 08:31 AM
Were you looking for pics on gripping the bow? See Don't Grip.

bfisher
12-26-2010, 09:55 AM
Justin,

Your Alien could be a 2010. Look at the first two numbers of the serial number for a clue. I say this because my "Z" wasn't built till May of 2010 and it has Barnesdale limbs. It was just about this time or just shortly after this that Martin started using their own limbs.

I'm not positive about this, but I think the Barnesdale limbs were just being used while Martin was developing their new limbs, which apparently became a reality in mid-year.

justin
12-26-2010, 02:14 PM
as far as the gripping bit goes its one thing to have someone tell you how to grip the bow and another to actually apply the knowlage to shooting. ive eased into a hand position that distributes the load evenly where my hand contacts the bow. my knuckles are angled like your pictures. i can only asume that im getting it pretty close. i took my target outside today after pistol hunting..... and did some warm up shooting. 20 and 30 and 40. i had every intention of setting my pins but ended up doing some spot shooting, then group shooting. my last 5 aarows were easily in a 3 inch group, the best 3 easily contained by 1.25 inches.... at that point i decided group shooting at 40 yards was going to be hard on aarows. i packed it up as i was freezing cold at this point. im not for sure how the tune is at this point either. might be good might not be. french tuned it with 10 yards as my group tune distance. also love my peep sight ring ratio, as they match up perfectly..... dont know my se#'s date code nor have i pondered it. ill see what i find out. thanks again guys.

bfisher
12-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Serial # should be on the bottom limb sticker.

Spiker
12-27-2010, 05:43 AM
Like Barry stated above - my '10 AZ was built in August and has Barnsdales.

justin
12-28-2010, 05:58 PM
ok yeah its a 2010..... :D
ummm what else? i did some shooting tonight and tried too keep shots from 5 to 7 seconds and holy crap did i feel rushed. things are just barly getting settled down. find my target check lvl, check pin, check peep, holdfire. can i wait 5 seconds after everything gets mellow? accuracy wasnt fantastic, but maybe passible. although i think times would be better in good light as the basement provides poor peep to ring alingnment, although it is doable. i was thinking of blaming that in part for some good groups the otherday outside..... any input?

SonnyThomas
12-28-2010, 06:22 PM
Well, offhand, can you back off the draw weight by 3 to 5 pounds? Like all training you begin with easy and build upon it. The key is being relaxed. So bow fit is quite imperative. Terry Wunderle, one of the world's great coaches has things listed; Draw length (too long and trouble), draw weight (too heavy and trouble),grip (proper and seated consistently), peep (comfortable, never moving the head to see through), and mass bow weight (bow should roll forward as the arrow is released). I can't find a link to the article, but can elaborate further if wanted.

justin
12-28-2010, 06:39 PM
i will drop the draw weight and see what happens. ill keep you posted.... on a side note, im not properly warming up before ive been shooting. is that a no-no as well? 60 seems tough if im exausted, but its light as a feather if im all warmed up. normally takes around 30 aarows or so to get rolling.

SonnyThomas
12-28-2010, 06:56 PM
Basic loosing up exercises is normal done, like getting the kinks out. Twisting the torso a few times, lean from the hip, rolling the head around (mine creaks something awful) and carried the most is surgical tubing to stretch with the arms, stretch from the front and then behind the head. It doesn't take much and with a light draw weight bow just shooting a few relaxing shots works - like blank baling, no pressure on the mind except the use of good form and shot sequence. A few shots meaning maybe 5 to 8 and then relax a bit before going into the practice routine.

John Dudley may have this. I read one of his articles some time back.
www.dudleyarchery.info

Spiker
12-28-2010, 09:14 PM
Relax.
Shoot.
Have Fun.
Repeat.

elkslayer4x5
12-29-2010, 05:56 AM
Relax.
Shoot.
Have Fun.
Repeat.

Yeah, exactly as Spiker has said ! :D

bfisher
12-29-2010, 08:49 AM
Sonny is kind of leading the way here, but a little more advice to add to what's already been mentioned. You're doing too much thinking. When I talked about a 5-7 second time frame I was talking about aiming. More or less from the time your pin settles in the bullseye till the bow goes off.

Checking the level, the sight ring and all those other things you talk about are just another part of the shot sequence and in time these will become so automatic as to be inconsequential. This partly is where tweaking the bow to fit you better (over time) helps. If you are shooting something like 20 yards most of the time you shouldn't even have to check your level. You shouldn't have to check or look for your peep. You don't have to check the alignment of your peep with the sight ring. The better your form becomes the more natural the act of drawing and anchoring become. Just don't clutter your brain with too many things at once.

Don't rush your shots, but don't take forever either. Let the shot happen.

alex
12-29-2010, 12:00 PM
Another good exercise (i think) is to take a slingshot and pull it for a while - like a dozen of times - i do it when i don't have my bows with me.

justin
12-29-2010, 02:51 PM
all of that stuff is part of my rutine. when everything gets settled my normal shot is normally less than 10 seconds from when i start to draw, so im probably ok there huh? when it was nice out i was shooting 3 or 4 arrows at 30 yards as sort of a "bow check" and would then start shooting at 40 yards. after a dozen aarows or so, and if everything was coming together, id start shooting at 50. if not id stay at 40. i was piling up aarows pretty good at 40 yards. im really hoping my revamp in form and basement practice has me shooting sweet like come spring. my little session last weekend at 40 yards was really encouraging. anyone got the fourmula for cuts on angled shots? im figuring i can probably do that in my head pretty easily once i get the math bounced around in my head for a bit.

i dropped my poundage to 5 turns out on my bolts on my 70# bow so im roughly 55ish now..... its reallly feels too light. like i could roll outta bed at 530 and draw it light. did a handfull of shots and sorta liked it. accuracy was better i think. didnt really shoot enough to know for sure though. ill shoot it at 55 for awhile snd see how it goes.

justin
12-29-2010, 02:56 PM
double post!!!! heh. all of those things are part of my rutine but i guess i dont want it to be a bad, crippling rutine. im trying to stay away from saying "i know" to you guys cause you guys know better. all i can do is try to glean all i can and hope im applying it right.... thanks again!!

SonnyThomas
12-29-2010, 05:57 PM
Justin, I have some age on me, but I can still 70 pounds with either my UltraTec or MagnaTec, but that is not telling the whole story. I found my UltraTec worked the best for me set to 62 pounds for 3D. Here, 3D shots are spaced apart to regain 100% strength. Said, is a shooter drops to 90 to 95% from the first and down to 80 after the second and goes on down hill, like maybe 65% left for the 5th if shooting back to back arrows. Now, give your bow arm 15 to 17 seconds and you're back to 100%. You're allowed 4 minutes to shoot 5 arrows on the 5 spot and 2 1/2 minutes for 3 on the Vegas face.
The true match up test for target shooting and draw weight; Put the pin on the target and draw straight back and still stay reasonably on target.

Something more to think of;
Those top spot shooters, articles don't really tell of how much draw weight they drawing and if anything note their 3D bows. One that I know of has his indoor bow set to a whopping 37 pounds - and yes, he won Vegas and has been in the shoot off quite a few times. The winner of Vegas last year walked off with over $30,000.00. I'm willing to bet his bow wasn't anywhere near the draw weight of his 3D bow.

justin
12-30-2010, 03:16 PM
got any links to the rules and distances at vegas? and how far are they shooting when im watching these work cup vids? 80 meters? i cant imagine so many aarows going out of the 10 ring at ranges less than 60....

justin
01-01-2011, 07:45 AM
so im only shooting about 30 out of 60 at nickel sized spots at 11 yards in my basement. lighting may be a factor as i cannot see my peep the best. anyway yeah. im hoping to get that bumped up a bit by spring. im refining my shot sequence and spacing everything out a bit more.

SonnyThomas
01-01-2011, 12:24 PM
Vegas is 18 m (19.69 yards), 3 shots and allowed 2 1/2 minutes. Normal leagues and NFAA is 20 yards and the same 3 shots and 2 1/2 minutes.

You have to look under 2 or 3 different avenues for the rest you asked. NFAA, NAA and FITA. 80 meters = 87.49 yards.

I've set up for field a few times - shot in the distances. So the odd ball metric system and me don't get along though some events only have maybe 3 distances to shoot (FITA).

I decline the state championship. Not because of the oddball distances, but that one of the rules; Strictly No Smoking on club grounds. Not the shooter's meeting, not the shooting range, but the whole of the club grounds. Sort of sucks. I mean if I can't smoke then tobacco products of any kind should not be allowed. I sort of fall in with the lyrics of one song; "two out of three ain't bad." Well, I don't drink and I don't beat my wife.

justin
01-01-2011, 12:30 PM
thanks sonny.... ill see how i do this afternoon....