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Ehunter
12-03-2010, 03:16 AM
Not a tech post, I know, but here it is. Wondering what the people on here, especially the hunters think of some of the advertising out there. For one, I am DRASTICALLY opposed to the slogans such as "If it's brown, it's down!" and "Dropping ducks like rain" "Whack 'em and stack 'em" etc. I am a hunter first and foremost. I do feel however, that this type of advertising puts hunters in a VERY bad light. It gives fuel to the anti-hunters. "Those hunters are just out there to kill everything that moves! Just look at the slogans they all use for hunting!" I know not all hunters are like that, in fact, very few are. I know as hunters we can't cater to the desires of anti-hunters. I do think that we should at least keep them in mind, and not continually give them their own ammo in the fight against hunting. Now you know what I think, what do you think?

RLW
12-03-2010, 06:21 AM
OK, this is the direction my viewpoint comes from.
I raised with hunting being a normal way of life, and guns being just another tool used in that life. (have to admit though, shooting guns and bows is way more fun than playing with spoons & forks or hammers & nails). Growing up, hunting/fishing did provide many meals on our table, and my continued hunting/fishing puts many meals on my family's table today (took a small buck again this year, my 40th year hunting, but w/rifle)

As for advertising by manufacturers. I have mixed feeling about some of that.
Ted Nugent's "Whack Em & Stack Em" doesn't really bother me, but that could be because I see many positive things he does and feel he's a strong spokesman for hunting and gun rights. I like the way he just tells it like it is. However, I do agree that there are some ads out there that cross the line a bit, degrading hunters and disrespecting the animals we take...kill

While these poor taste ads may provide ammo to some looking for it, but I'm not really sure that's the real problem we face.......It has amazed how many people across the country that have been raised completely out of touch with reality. They don't understand where their milk cheese really comes from, or that the belt/shoes they're wearing and hamburger they're eating comes from animals that have been killed for their consumption.
I would hope they don't actually believe deer and pigs can talk like they do in movies, but in part because of these kids shows, there are a lot out there that do think animals have the same feeling and thought process as people.

So I guess I feel things like throwing a deer on the hood of the truck, showing the gaping slash where you gutted it, slashed throat and blood dripping out the nose, and/or similar blood & guts scenes or pictures of such out there for all to see do more harm than the ads which are mostly in hunting magazines and books.

We as hunter do have a responsibility to respectfully and tastefully display our kills in such a way as to not turn non-hunters into anti-hunters by shoving a fist full of blood in their face.

bfisher
12-03-2010, 10:18 AM
OK, this is the direction my viewpoint comes from.
I raised with hunting being a normal way of life, and guns being just another tool used in that life. (have to admit though, shooting guns and bows is way more fun than playing with spoons & forks or hammers & nails). Growing up, hunting/fishing did provide many meals on our table, and my continued hunting/fishing puts many meals on my family's table today (took a small buck again this year, my 40th year hunting, but w/rifle)

As for advertising by manufacturers. I have mixed feeling about some of that.
Ted Nugent's "Whack Em & Stack Em" doesn't really bother me, but that could be because I see many positive things he does and feel he's a strong spokesman for hunting and gun rights. I like the way he just tells it like it is. However, I do agree that there are some ads out there that cross the line a bit, degrading hunters and disrespecting the animals we take...kill

While these poor taste ads may provide ammo to some looking for it, but I'm not really sure that's the real problem we face.......It has amazed how many people across the country that have been raised completely out of touch with reality. They don't understand where their milk cheese really comes from, or that the belt/shoes they're wearing and hamburger they're eating comes from animals that have been killed for their consumption.
I would hope they don't actually believe deer and pigs can talk like they do in movies, but in part because of these kids shows, there are a lot out there that do think animals have the same feeling and thought process as people.

So I guess I feel things like throwing a deer on the hood of the truck, showing the gaping slash where you gutted it, slashed throat and blood dripping out the nose, and/or similar blood & guts scenes or pictures of such out there for all to see do more harm than the ads which are mostly in hunting magazines and books.

We as hunter do have a responsibility to respectfully and tastefully display our kills in such a way as to not turn non-hunters into anti-hunters by shoving a fist full of blood in their face.

Well said. On a separate note one slogan that bothers me somewhat is "Bad to the Bone". We all know what comany uses it and I don't quite understand why. Anybody with any idea of how a broadhead works knows that blades and bone don't mix very well. There are lots more, but I'm sure others will chime in.

ElkSlayer
12-03-2010, 02:41 PM
To add my .02 I remember the day I first read that slogan.. opened the mail one day as a teen and here was a small box adress to the archery shop dad had wanted to start up ...
in side was a 4 blade muzzy , new interlocking blades. it was wicked sharp an mean as heck lookin for the day.. In side with it was a flyer that showed a large bone of i cant remember what and it showed one of them buried clear up the body and this thing is long... I still have that BH wish i had the flyer...point they were making way back then was that they will hold up even if you hit bone..over the years it has been bent outa shape as all other slogans I dont care to type :cool:

justin
12-03-2010, 02:52 PM
isnt a 30-06 the best way through a shoulder blade? imo arrows arent disposeable like bullets.

Stéphane
12-03-2010, 03:29 PM
I personally don't think Bow Companies slogans give bad names to hunters for the reason that advertisements for bows are not seen on the PETA like website, but in hunting magazines and websites.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
12-03-2010, 03:59 PM
I work for Coca-cola. Advertising makes or breaks a company. The reason Coca-cola is so big, is first a great product, second advertising. Advertising is to appeal to the consumer. So however they have to get the idea across to make that appeal they will. But within reason. You see Pepsi run ads that make fun of Coca-cola. But as long as I can remember, we have not made any ads to make fun of Pepsi. So with that being said, Many of the archery companies have done a great job in advertising. But some are going to push the limits on how they advertise. Just because the consumer is looking for faster, smoother, sleeker, slimmer, quieter, stronger, or just plain cool looking. The list goes on and on.
Many have cool slogans and some not so. Bad to the Bone probably not a good one. But ask a lot of young people and they will say Bad to the bone that's cool.
Advertising works but it ain't always good. ;)

Ehunter
12-04-2010, 06:00 AM
RLW, I agree with you. Many people have no idea that the leather and meat they eat comes from what was once a live animal. One just has to look at all the "Vegans" out there, and see how many are wearing leather of some sort, or makeup (animal fats), or some other animal by product. I also agree Ted is a good spokesman for hunters and hunting. I do wish he would tone it down a bit though. Several of the phrases I've seen him use almost seem like they are intended to inflame the anti-hunters, rather than just make his point. I realise we can't back down from the anti-hunters, but we also don't need to fuel their fire by making them madder than they already are.
As for the ads, I wasn't talking specifically about the bow manufacturers. I meant the hunting industry in general. When anti-hunters and anti-gun groups see an ad like "dropping ducks like rain", in their minds it's the same as "This gun will kill everything, and ANYONE you want it to!" as well as "See, they are just out to kill as many animals as they can!" The bow manufacturers seem to be far more restrained in their advertising as far as those kinds of slogans go. The one term I can think of that I wish I'd never hear again though is "Get the red carpet treatment" That tells the anti's that we shot a deer, then had to follow it forever as it slowly bled to death in an agonizizingly slow way. We know it isn't true, but how many anti's really know anything about hunting? They get a preconceived notion in their minds, and that's what they call their reality. That's the thing we all have to look out for. THEIR preconceived ideas. Anti's and radicals don't care much about facts, just what they think. No offense to anyone at all meant, but Hitler thought exterminating the Jewish people was a good idea, so did his followers. Thankfully, we had plenty of people, like 2 of my great uncles, that stopped him.
I do believe that the anti-hunting crowd does tend to look at hunting magazines, and watch hunting shows more than we realise. It's one way they get their misguided opinions to try to use against us. If an animal doesn't drop EXACTLY where it was shot, it's cruel and abusive in their eyes. Yet, you never see these same people complaining about a Kosher butcher. Big reason I believe, it's not something that's available for them to easily see. If we are going to put something out in front of the general public, I htink it's our responsibility as hunters and shooters to hold the industry to higher standards of advertising by writing to them and speaking our minds, as well as not buying their products as long as they continue to use ads that are not in the hunting/shooting community's best interest.

SonnyThomas
12-04-2010, 07:42 AM
Of course you know we're our worst enemy. We don't protest what we feel is bad for our sport, regardless of weapon used. I dread the public viewing of M16 type rifles being used for hunting. Okay, they will do the job, but people think we are out there with nothing but pure mayhem or destruction on our minds. Just pitched a magazine that had some 10 or 12 assault type rifles being highly proclaimed as hunting rifles.

So perhaps we need to get off our dead a__ and write to the makers of the equipment we use? I already wrote to the NRA of these assault rifles being put in magazines. Okay, use them, but let's don't go off the deep end.

Advertising can be overboard. Winchester did it with the Talon bullets some time back. So lethal, so devastating was this bullet taken that it was at the door of being proclaimed illegal for use. The problem; The public doesn't know how a bullet works. The Talon was proclaimed a core drilling instrument of destruction. Well, all bullets drill, spin. The jagged edges shown in advertisements just added to what was deemed pure destruction and the Medical Association put their two cents in and the Talon was "removed" from the market. "Removed" as in replaced by what looked a flower, a rose in full bloom. And it was then accepted. It was the same bullet, preformed the same, just as lethal and destructive, just made to look pretty.

Now, what the public didn't know, probably still doesn't, is that the .357 Magnum 125 gr hollow point was the most devastating bullet used for police work at the time. People didn't know this particular round had the highest one shot stop capability going. They didn't know it came out of the barrel at 1400 fps. They didn't know that is came apart inside the body, sending shrapnel outwards of the bullet path. So the person got shot in the stomach and jacket and lead material would end up in one's bladder or lungs.
And then the pubic didn't know the Talon was designed to stay intact.

ElkSlayer
12-04-2010, 10:05 AM
good thing I still have some of them safly stashed in the gun cabnet then..:D as for the 30-06 yes it will (have one too) but then so did my muzzy blasted thru a big doe. near side ribs exited far side sholder blade went a nother 15-20 yds buried in the dirt.. I keep um sharp an have alot of KE..

justin
12-04-2010, 09:35 PM
sadly 1400fps is about max for a 357.... u might be able to sqeek 1550fps.
the 41 mag was issued to very few police departments with a 210 grain semiwad cutter, delivered at roughly 900fps. alternate loads include a 170 grain hollow point delivered at a whopping 1790fps. besides concerns of overpenitration, the frames were bigger on the 41, and not everyone liked the bigger size. this gun was marketed as a police weapon and as it turns out was a dismal failure. hunters loved it though. its balistacally superior to the 44 mag in 2 and only 2 bullet weights, 200 and 210 grain.(better KE and velocity) but anything heavier and the KE of the 44 starts overpowering the 41. with the correct adds and a ravinous pack of fanboys, the 41 probably be much more popular than it is now!!

my point? you have to sell your products to people who are going to buy them not anyone else or your product will likely fail.

ElkSlayer
12-05-2010, 10:11 AM
thus the catchy slogans...snappy jingles..etc..your right got to get the people to buy your product...keep up with your buddy type mentality.. see it on the range every weekend or big shoot ...last 3d i went to 5 guys all had the same rig right down to arrows..... execpt vain color :rolleyes:

SonnyThomas
12-05-2010, 01:32 PM
sadly 1400fps is about max for a 357.... u might be able to sqeek 1550fps.
the 41 mag was issued to very few police departments with a 210 grain semiwad cutter, delivered at roughly 900fps. alternate loads include a 170 grain hollow point delivered at a whopping 1790fps. besides concerns of overpenitration, the frames were bigger on the 41, and not everyone liked the bigger size. this gun was marketed as a police weapon and as it turns out was a dismal failure. hunters loved it though. its balistacally superior to the 44 mag in 2 and only 2 bullet weights, 200 and 210 grain.(better KE and velocity) but anything heavier and the KE of the 44 starts overpowering the 41. with the correct adds and a ravinous pack of fanboys, the 41 probably be much more popular than it is now!!

my point? you have to sell your products to people who are going to buy them not anyone else or your product will likely fail.

I PMed you. But to add;
The .41 Mag came on the police scene with full power loads and afterwards was down loaded, not only because of over penetration, but the majority of police couldn't handle the full power round and even had trouble with the down loaded police loads.

You have to have several pistol reloading manuals laying around to know the full scope of the comparison between the .41 and .44 Mag. I have only one manual by Lyman that gives the .41 mag a edge over the .44 mag in bullet weights of 200 to 210 grs. All other manuals show the .44 mag possessing right at 200 fps over the 41 mag in like bullet weights of 200 and 210 grs. These manuals are; Sierra, Speer, Nosler, Hodgdons and Winchester and One Caliber manuals. For the life of me I can't understand why Lyman is so far off base with velocities widely known for the .44 magnum.

If you want I can copy some of the pages. I doubt One Caliber manuals will copy because of the paper quality. Perhaps overlap and get some to show the difference between Lyman's charts.

At top form years back I was shooting some 300 rounds per week in .44 mag and .45 Colt. I held records at Chillicothe in 200 Meter Silhouette and Slow Fire competition. Here, I won End of the Year Pistol Champion in Silhouette with only competing in 4 of the 8 events. No one has done this since. I also held the records in Slow Fire at 15 feet with sub caliber groups. .378" center to center average for five 5 shot groups with a Ruger RedHawk using .44 Special loads. I have a 5 slug stack of 38 Specials somewhere. Here, my group was questioned and the judge split the back stop and found all 5 of my shots on top of each other and stuck together. The .38 Spl. group measured .337" c/c. I understand both these records have been broken.

I used my pistols for everything, tins to deer and may again.

justin
12-05-2010, 06:28 PM
wow you can teach me shooting tips too!! is there anything you dont do sonny?

Ehunter
12-05-2010, 06:29 PM
Oh yeah, well I once killed a gopher with a stick! lol Just joking around Sonny. That's some damn fine shooting. I stick to bows and long guns. MY shooting hand for pistols has a mind of it's own. And that mind has ADD. lol

justin
12-05-2010, 07:10 PM
off topic..... my twin brother used to shoot critters with his bb gun when we were kids. he missed a rabit one day and was so upset he sawed off his sights be cause "they werent right" so anyway he was a good shot and would consistantly outshoot me. and after shooting starlings and sparrows all day with him, and i think he missed like once that day. so anyway we see this starling like 50 yards away and in the top of a 50 foot pine tree..... and he says watch this.......and caps it in the head, no sights...... sadly he lost vision in his dominate eye recently in a shooting incident (he might be able to recover most of his vision though!! it will be awhile yet though) wear your safty glasses!!! (he forgot to put his back down after looking through the spotting scope) basically he makes an average hunter/shooter look bad.....but now hes gotta wait till he gets a new lens and some lasik.

SonnyThomas
12-05-2010, 07:57 PM
We have lost bearings on the Post. I apologize. Perhaps we should start another to continue.

As for doing things, Justin, I'm heading for 62 years of age. I raced cars on the drag strip when 18 years of age with a 500 hp 409 in a 1962 2 door hard top Chevy Super Sport Impala. I switched to racing motorcycles before age 20, racing a 250 Ossa short tracker and a 125 Yamaha Enduro. My street scooter, 1972 a Harley Davidson Sportster was tricked a bit and able to hit 145 mph at red line and never beaten by 160 mph Hondas and Kawasakis. I went back to hunting at age 26. In my 30s I hammered the Trap ranges, earning 3 club championships shooting Doubles. I had been playing with pistols along the way, but also took in precision rifles. Using a Savage .22-250 with 26" target barrel I have shot many sub 1/4" groups at 100 yards quite few sub caliber groups down in the sub .100" realm. My Savage .30/06 is beyond description for long range accuracy and velocity. Using Sierra's 110 gr HP it will nail 3525 fps within manual listings and Sierra people are amazed. I keep it downloaded a tad to 3447 fps. Best group at 200 yards is .750". I trained my first hunting dog and fell in love with him. I turned down many fine offers for him. When he had to be put down due to cancer I never found it me to train another. My wife and I had horses, 275 over the years, most due to horse trading, but we also had 2 stallions. One was a paint, a own son to paint horse Champion Leo's Justice. The other was Quarter horse, A Sharp Bell, Iowa Futurity winner and Springfield, Illinois track record holder. I got into archery again after a 30 some year of absence. Of my last count and resume I had over 75 times of placing 3rd or better, including sanctioned shoots and one Championship in Field.
I worked for Caterpillar, Inc. for 36 years and had a job that allowed my fields of play.
My dad (groan) well into his 80s built some shelves to display some of my endeavors. I lost many firearms trophies due to being stored in a tin shed that had the roof rust out and allowed snow and rain to ruin many. I donated many archery trophies to kids events, still have quite a few and have added to since this picture. Here are some pics of motorcycle, rifle, pistol, shotgun and archery trophies.
I guess the short of this is, one can do what he or she wants to do (within limits) and if helped along the way can go farther. I would thank Lynn's Cycle Shop and T&S Traders (guns and ammo) for their help. Lyle Brown, gone many years now, gave great insight to breaking horses from the ground up and how to correct errors humans gave horses. And more, I can't thank my wife enough for putting up with my over zealous attitude.

CarlosII
12-06-2010, 03:42 AM
wow you can teach me shooting tips too!! is there anything you dont do sonny?

Things Sonny Can't Do:

1. Yodel worth a crap

2. Scratch his right elbow with his right hand (although he has no trouble on his left side.)











oh...and he has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time. :D

SonnyThomas
12-06-2010, 06:21 AM
Things Sonny Can't Do:
1. Yodel worth a crap - Well, I could never find a bucket big enough to carry a tune.
2. Scratch his right elbow with his right hand (although he has no trouble on his left side.) Well, I am left handed, just shoot a bow right handed.
Oh...and he has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time. :D This is not true. I can walk and chew gum at the same time if I take out my false teeth.

carlsoii, was that you that left his false teeth at one of ASA ProAms? Check the ASA Lost and Found List. LD may still have them. Lord, 17 binoculars, 12 prescription glasses. And Cell phones galory. A GPS! Someone needs help finding the way around a ASA 3D course? Surely not you.

ElkSlayer
12-06-2010, 11:03 AM
nice shootin irons sonny...quite the list of lifes accomplishments too. so was that your sales Ad....lol:D Heck I would buy a life like that:D

SonnyThomas
12-06-2010, 12:09 PM
nice shootin irons sonny...quite the list of lifes accomplishments too. so was that your sales Ad....lol:D Heck I would buy a life like that:D

Thank you, sir.