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Hutch~n~Son Archery
01-12-2011, 04:15 PM
When leveling the arrow with the berger hole, does the arrow have to be perfectly inline of the middle of the berger hole. Or can it be a little above or a little below center.

Hutch

copterdoc
01-12-2011, 04:35 PM
I get the rest as close to the shelf as I can, without getting fletching contact.

On most of my bows, the entire berger hole is visible above the arrow shaft.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
01-12-2011, 04:44 PM
I get the rest as close to the shelf as I can, without getting fletching contact.

On most of my bows, the entire berger hole is visible above the arrow shaft.

With the style rest this bow has, the lowest we can go is the line of the bottom of the berger hole.

Hutch

SonnyThomas
01-12-2011, 05:27 PM
Rule of thumb has always been; center of arrow shaft intersecting the berger and never have the center of the shaft be higher than the top of the berger hole.

Still, as long as the arrow (vanes) can clear the shelf I suppose below the berger hole would work. Problem would be if a something pointed to move the rest further down.

And then I've seen people set up the rest and nock so the arrow is above the berger hole. I can't say either above or below gave good results as I've never tried it.

Gasman
01-12-2011, 06:03 PM
As a complete newb to this fine sport, after reading this post i wondered if there is a comprehensive diagram with the anatomy of a compound bow so i can follow along with the forum posters. Sorry for the off topic, just needed to ask

Billguys
01-12-2011, 06:10 PM
I think I'm not the authorized person to answer your question. As far as I know your taking up medical course. So its dealt life of animal..

I want to make its sure so go, visit uncle google.:cool:

SonnyThomas
01-12-2011, 07:35 PM
2010 Martin manual, top of page 6.

Gasman
01-12-2011, 09:02 PM
thanks sonny, great work

elkslayer4x5
01-13-2011, 09:59 AM
As a complete newb to this fine sport, after reading this post i wondered if there is a comprehensive diagram with the anatomy of a compound bow so i can follow along with the forum posters. Sorry for the off topic, just needed to ask

Berger holes= the taped holes in the riser just above the arrow shelf, used to attach the arrow rest. It's ok to ask, we're here to answer. :)

gibson 787
01-13-2011, 11:35 AM
When leveling the arrow with the berger hole, does the arrow have to be perfectly inline of the middle of the berger hole. Or can it be a little above or a little below center.

G'day Hutch. When setting up, I use a long bolt that fits right through the berger hole and touches a nocked arrow giving me a good indication where centre is. For me centre of berger hole works best, BUT, that's not to say for some people a little above or below would work better.

No one has exactly the same form and I've found that in archery what always comes out trumps for me , is good ol trial and error.

MLN1963
01-13-2011, 05:41 PM
I too am a rookie and I ask rookie questions.

Why is it called a Berger hole, is there some significance?

bfisher
01-13-2011, 06:51 PM
I too am a rookie and I ask rookie questions.

Why is it called a Berger hole, is there some significance?

Man, now you asked a question I can answer, but be ready for some history.

It kind of started back before compunds came on the scene. Recurves were the norm and risers were not machined or cut past center so we used stcick-on arrow rests such as Flipper rests. To compensate for archer's paradox we would build up the side plate with leather pads or some other stick-on material.

So in the early 70's this guy called Vic Berger came up with a better idea than building up the side plate. It was called a Berger Button, commonly called a cushion plunger. To was adjustable for both the amount of centershot needed to reduce archer's paradox and spring tension for fine tuning the same. The only problem was that it was (is) threaded so risers needed to be drilled and threaded to accept it, which every manufacturer of bows ended up doing.

The drilling and thread pattern became an AMO standard that all rests and mounting bolts have adopted. Not too many people use cushion plngers these days, but that doesn't mean they don't work. What they did they did well, and still do. Newer generations of shooters don't know about these things row wouldn't want to use them anyway because they are too "outdated".

OK, so that is where the term Berger holes came from.

MLN1963
01-13-2011, 07:14 PM
Thanks! Now I know the rest of the story!

Have a great night.

SonnyThomas
01-13-2011, 08:48 PM
Good job, bfisher. Should you wish Lancaster's catalog a selection of Berger buttons and plungers. Some are fairly cheap, nylon screw. Some are pricey enough for one to say; "I can buy a good arrow rest for that price!"

Story; Just this past summer I had a basket case old Pearson target bow come in. And I do mean basket case, in pieces. Luckily there was a old Pearson hanging in the back room to copy from. Got it together, finally. The nylon Berger button was virtually melted in the riser and it was drill time and patience to get it out. The old worn sticker had 37 pounds of draw weight. Odd, but this was a ordered bow way back when people were selective, I guess. I put a new one in and gave it a try. About 3 or 4 adjustments of the Berger button and the old bow was nailing just about everything I wanted. Well, not great, but good enough I felt real, real good. And I hadn't shot fingers for target shooting in long while. I bow fish with fingers every so often - Picture in here somewhere. The owner came in and I asked him what he was going to do with it. A "I don't know" and I asked what he wanted for it. $25 later and I possessed one sweet little blue wheel bow with white limbs. And then I made a mistake and told of having this bow. It was snatched up just as fast I had snatched it up. Another bow I wish I had kept was gone.

alex
01-14-2011, 05:12 AM
Man, now you asked a question I can answer, but be ready for some history.

It kind of started back before compunds came on the scene. Recurves were the norm and risers were not machined or cut past center so we used stcick-on arrow rests such as Flipper rests. To compensate for archer's paradox we would build up the side plate with leather pads or some other stick-on material.

So in the early 70's this guy called Vic Berger came up with a better idea than building up the side plate. It was called a Berger Button, commonly called a cushion plunger. To was adjustable for both the amount of centershot needed to reduce archer's paradox and spring tension for fine tuning the same. The only problem was that it was (is) threaded so risers needed to be drilled and threaded to accept it, which every manufacturer of bows ended up doing.

The drilling and thread pattern became an AMO standard that all rests and mounting bolts have adopted. Not too many people use cushion plngers these days, but that doesn't mean they don't work. What they did they did well, and still do. Newer generations of shooters don't know about these things row wouldn't want to use them anyway because they are too "outdated".

OK, so that is where the term Berger holes came from.

Thanks for the history lesson, Barry! That was something i always wondered about but never asked. But now i'll ask why the holes are 2? :)

elkslayer4x5
01-14-2011, 07:43 AM
Thanks for the history lesson, Barry! That was something i always wondered about but never asked. But now i'll ask why the holes are 2? :)

For greater adjustment range of your rest. :)

bfisher
01-14-2011, 08:18 AM
Originally, way back when, as I always say, bows only had one hole drilled for the plunger and normally about in the center of the riser as viewed from the side. Then somewhere along in time somebody started drilling and tapping two holes. I don't know why, but I have a sneaking suspicion this came about to help lock in an overdraw so it couldn't tilt. Those things served a purpose too, but were often a royal PITA. And now, with the advent of lighter carbon arrows overdraws have gone the way of the dinosaur. Of course two holes allows for a bit more adjustment of today's rests, but it really isn't necessary. If you only had oen hole then you mount a rest and cut arrows to a necessary length and tune accordingly. Still, any rest I mount is done so with two bolts just for security. The only problem I've ever encounterd doing this is that the holes are close nough that one bolt head often overlaps the other. No big deal.

alex
01-14-2011, 01:21 PM
Thank you both for the info!

sway
01-15-2011, 05:33 AM
Im a little new to but i have a firecat 400 and a ripcord rest in order to get the fork of the rest to sit flush with the arrow shelf my arrow is leveld just across the top of the holes and shoots awesome.... Just the way it worked out for tuning also.

bfisher
01-15-2011, 10:17 AM
Im a little new to but i have a firecat 400 and a ripcord rest in order to get the fork of the rest to sit flush with the arrow shelf my arrow is leveld just across the top of the holes and shoots awesome.... Just the way it worked out for tuning also.

OK, so a little more history lesson. Most people swear that the arrow has to bisect the Berger holes to make the bow tuneable. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Back in the old days (again) the deepest part of the grip was in the physical center of the bow. Therefore the rest had to be mounted about 2" above the center of the bow. This wasn't a big issue as you just tuned the bow accordingly, mostly by playing with the tiller. As a norm tiller was adjusted about 1/8" less on the bottom limb as compared to the top limb.

I don't know quite when it came about or who started it, but the grip was moved down about 1 1/2" to move the rest closer to the center of the bow. OK, well and good, but this still did not move the rest clear to the center. On most bows it is the shelf that is centered so the rest is still above center.
Again, you just tune the bow accordingly. No big deal.

I shot a lot of these older bows as I've been shooting compounds for 38 years now. IMO older bows balanced much better back then and were not top heavy like they are today. They just felt better in the hand. However, I don't design and sell bows so who am I to judge. I just know what they felt like.

One note about tiller tuning. To get that 1/8" difference only took about 1/2 turn difference to the limb adjustment. It doesn't work as well with parallel limbs due to the limb angle. The limbs don't tilt back near as much, but more toward each other. And the length of bows back then llowed for greater movement of the limbs for a given amount of adjustment. Risers were shorter and limbs were longer. Where it used to take about 1/2 turn it now takes about 2 turns or so which can throw the bow out of whack so it's not worth playing around with. This is just my opinion, of course.

Reubin Williams
01-20-2011, 12:48 PM
On a 2010 wart hog how can you install a qad hd rest so the center of the arrow runs through the center of the berger holes, it doesn't seem that you can get the rest low enough to do it without the launcher hitting the shelf.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
01-20-2011, 04:09 PM
On a 2010 wart hog how can you install a qad hd rest so the center of the arrow runs through the center of the berger holes, it doesn't seem that you can get the rest low enough to do it without the launcher hitting the shelf.

A lot of new rests are like that mine and my sons can't go to low. Mid to high on the berger holes at best.

HUTCH