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View Full Version : Short draw lengths doomed



sway
01-16-2011, 03:35 PM
Are those of us with short draw lengths just outta luck for shooting 300fps????? I got the firecat 400 in hopes of at least coming close and the best i can get is 285fps with 27" draw 70# and 368gr arrow.. I know i can lower the arrow weight but??????

have a Destroyer 350 that I am hunting with this year. I shoot a 27" dl at 62# dw. I know that a 452grn. FMJ is flying at 283 to 286fps. Post off AT i just dont see how thses guys get the speeds they post.. Although i seen a hoyt crx 27" 66# grained out arrow shoot 302 and it ibos 10 fps slower.... I just dont understand and i didnt want to shoot those other bow!!!!!!!!!!


my monster 7 at 60# 27.5" draw..peep, loop, and monkey tails was shooting my 400g maxima 350's at 286

copterdoc
01-16-2011, 04:06 PM
...Post off AT i just dont see how thses guys get the speeds they post..
Because they don't have bow scales, grain scales, or tape measures.

Instead, they just rely on, "my modules are for 27", and my bow maxes out at 70#".

I know of two Martin bows that will get 300 F.P.S. with a 27" DL at 70#.
They don't make them any more though.

The Slayer and the Cougar, with 13" limbs and Nitrous B cams, will both get over 300 F.P.S. at 27".
Their "adjusted" IBO speed is 340-345.

bfisher
01-16-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm heere to tell you that Doc is right about the Slayer. Or might I say Slayr. 2004 was the first year I was with Martin and had a Slayr with Nitrous cams on it. Set up at 27.5" draw, 53# and 5gr/lb arrow it shot 308 fps.

Later in that year I shortened the draw to 27" and it still shot 299 fps. The only bow I ever had that came close to rated speeds.

I can't tell you how many Martin shooters wish they'd bring back the Nitrous cam.

SonnyThomas
01-16-2011, 06:24 PM
There is no magic in having speeds in excess and especially so if you can't handle the speed. I'll take a slow hit over a fast miss. Heads up shooting where ASA, IBO or NFAA I have done some of my finest scoring with bows in the 275 to 284 fps range. Slower than this in Field, Indoor, and Outdoor target events. And FITA has a 60 pound draw limit. I probably didn't help myself when I agreed to shoot a Staff shooters target Shadowcat at the ASA ProAm in Metropolis this past summer. Only two weeks of shooting it, wasn't really absolutely my sight settings were as good as they should have been, max draw weight of 54 pounds and arrow speed of 261 or 264 fps and fighting the too long a draw length at every shot. I finished middle of the pack for my first ever national circuit event. Was I little apprehensive, intimidated? You bet.

I just know I'm going to rattle off big time... Lord!

You don't need speed in known distance spot shooting do you? It's know the distance and drop your arrow in thing. Within reason, for 3D and hunting *judging distance is paramount regardless of speed. The average distance, nation wide, for whitetails in 19 yards. You miss the center by 2 or 3 inches either way and dead deer and this holds true on out to reasonable deer hunting distances - say 35 to 40 yards. My longest deer kill shot was 36 yards.

*Judging distance is something practiced throughout IBO, ASA and the NFAA 3D shooters. Some make it harder than what it it, this judging yardage. You can practice it virtually anywhere - waiting in your vehicle, what distance to four rows over in a department store or like me at work, how far to the coffee machine, foreman's desk. Pick a object and give it distance. A range finder will tell within a yard. A tape measure will be closer. Don't have either, gage your step - your natural step. For me 6 steps equals 5 yards. Work on a specific distance, 10 or 20 yards. Get it fixed in your mind. Use something to make that fixed in mind distance, a weed, stump, root, tree, bush, something. Then see what doubles that distance or is half that distance. You have that distance, so how much more to the target? Have a number in your mind and add it to you fixed in mind distance and the plus or minus of it. Your not done. Know gage the distance of target back to you.
Sound long, but with practice those numbers (yards) come just like counting; 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on. The only difference is; 15, mmm? 30 and maybe 2 yards - so 32 yards. From the target; Okay there's 20 and 5 and other 5 and maybe 1 yard - so 31 yards. Using pins you have to do some splitting of sights pins or aim strong or aim weak (flight of the arrow).

3D. In the ASA that 10 ring probably averages 4 1/2 inches or there of. No biggie here. Lots of us have shot in the 390s and even cleaned the course. When the X or 12 ring is used scores became higher, but hits remained the same. The ASA offset 12 ring added a little challenge, but the higher scores didn't really change. The ASA 14 ring is rarely shot for. It is my understanding that Pros are not allowed the 14 ring now.

ASA Target Size; Large, Medium, Small
10-Ring Size (O.D.) 5.250" / 4.625" / 4.000"
Pro-12 Size (O.D.) 1.875" / 1.750" / 1.625"
14-Ring Size (O.D.) 1.625" / 1.500" /1.375"

See above again and then this saying; One pin out to 30 yards. Yep, sure, as long as you know the flight of your arrow. And if you know the flight of your arrow using even a slow bow you can be dead on from right off the arrow out to a great distance with just one pin. My hunting rig, 270 fps, has only a single fixed pin and I'm good out to 40 yards. If target shooting and gunning for the X or 12 ring I'll opt for a movable sight pin.

There, I did it, rattled off..... Now I have to wait for Carlso to say something.

sway
01-16-2011, 06:47 PM
i cant say im not in too speed butttt it is something that id like to have but not in the sacrifice of smoothness and accuracy i was just wondering if there was anything to do that would gain a little speed to shut those hoyt mathews and other brand loyals up???

copterdoc
01-16-2011, 08:09 PM
....i was just wondering if there was anything to do that would gain a little speed to shut those hoyt mathews and other brand loyals up???
No, there is nothing that can be done. They are blind.

I get in my share of arguments on AT with the fanboys. My goal is never to convert them. It is merely to show the rest of the forum members that they are full of........

I'm not a fanboy of any brand. Including Martin. In fact, I have been increasingly disappointed with Martin ever since 2006.

I will say this. When you look at the data that really matters, bows have not significantly improved in performance in the last 10 yes 10, years.

The average is up, but the top performers are still the same.

copterdoc
01-16-2011, 08:13 PM
...I can't tell you how many Martin shooters wish they'd bring back the Nitrous cam.
There are two truly sound investments, that can be made today.

Ammunition, and Nitrous cams!

MLN1963
01-16-2011, 08:22 PM
Are those of us with short draw lengths just outta luck for shooting 300fps????? I got the firecat 400 in hopes of at least coming close and the best i can get is 285fps with 27" draw 70# and 368gr arrow.. I know i can lower the arrow weight but??????

Are you sure those numbers are good? I assume the chronograph at Hunter's Friend is accurate . Example. My B-I-L just bought a BT Assassin (60-70#). It is supposed to IBO at 333 fps. He had it set to 60 pounds, 29 DL and is shooting 411 grain arrows. Their chrono said it was shooting an average of 279.

You are shooting more poundage, a faster bow and a lot lighter arrow. I know you lose a little extra with the 27" DL but that much really, 20 fps? What fletching are you using?

Punch your numbers into the calculator at this link. My brother in law's Assassin shows pretty close to the calculator. Your numbers are really slow compared to the calculator. You should be right at or over 300 FPS according to this.

http://www.backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/tools.php

copterdoc
01-16-2011, 08:31 PM
Are you sure those numbers are good?
Modular cams are an engineering compromise.

They perform best at their highest DL settings.

A bow that has an IBO rating of 350 F.P.S. at 30", will typically have an adjusted IBO of less than 340 at 27".

Add to that the fact that most manufacturers list their mod charts 1/2 shorter than the bows actually draw, you can knock another 5 F.P.S. off of that.

MLN1963
01-16-2011, 08:39 PM
I understand that, but it is also why I gave the Assassin as an example. It is close to what the calc says. If you change it's number to 27 it drops 20 fps.

copterdoc
01-16-2011, 08:54 PM
I understand that, but it is also why I gave the Assassin as an example. It is close to what the calc says. If you change it's number to 27 it drops 20 fps.
In reality, those calculators don't do a very good job with arrow weight, or DL changes.

Your B-I-L's bow is shooting about 3 F.P.S. slower than the calculator says it should be.

sway
01-16-2011, 09:14 PM
Okay punched numbers and i added 6.4 gr for d loop 6.5 for meta peep and 31.55 grains for cat whiskers 70# 27" draw its saying 285.66 which is really close it took off 10 fps for the whiskers wow!! if i took the whiskers off and grained my arrow out to 350 it showed 301.13 which would be real close to ibo at 10 fps per inch on draw then take off for peep and d loop....

copterdoc
01-16-2011, 09:21 PM
Okay punched numbers and i added 6.4 gr for d loop 6.5 for meta peep and 31.55 grains for cat whiskers 70# 27" draw its saying 285.66 which is really close it took off 10 fps for the whiskers wow!! if i took the whiskers off and grained my arrow out to 350 it showed 301.13 which would be real close to ibo at 10 fps per inch on draw then take off for peep and d loop....
The whiskers don't rob as much as the calculator says they will.

I have hard data of a 70# NOS B Cougar, shooting a 380 grain arrow at 305 F.P.S. at 28" of DL.

That was with 14" limbs and a 6.25" brace height. With 13" limbs, a 27" DL and a 5.25" brace height, it would be the same speed.

sway
01-16-2011, 09:32 PM
@mln just punched ur b.i.l numbers in and with nothing on the string it showed 280. Im shooting blazer vanes by the way. Ur also only talking about 2fps faster on my bow. And as far as the whiskers taking that much off i have no idea just what it shows but comes out about right with where im at..

copterdoc
01-16-2011, 09:40 PM
...And as far as the whiskers taking that much off i have no idea just what it shows but comes out about right with where im at..
I suddenly don't care about your problem.

sway
01-16-2011, 10:03 PM
I sudddenly realize i didnt ask u to care...

SonnyThomas
01-17-2011, 06:17 AM
Having rattled off. Any IBO listed for a bow can be math-ed to get a close idea of what you'll really have. See following.

General rule of thumb;
2 fps / 1 # of Draw Weight
10 fps / 1" of Draw Length
1 fps / 3 grains of arrow weight
1 fps / 3 grains of weight on the string

There are "tweak" procedures that can add a bit to figures for the older Firecats and should work for the 400. Search ArcheryTalk. Fine tuning (center shot off can cause 10 fps loss), arrow to poundage, speed buttons, center serving to be no longer than necessary (4" max), string stop adjusted for best results and of course stay within one arrow length of the chronograph when adjusting buttons and stuff. Yes, a chronograph can be used to set center shot.

All said and done, some rigs perform outstandingly for some reason. Build, tolerances held, I don't know.

Beyond all doubt there are some fast bows, but then there ain't enough salt to take for some speeds given for how the bow setup is....

MLN1963
01-17-2011, 07:00 AM
Just to get this out in the open, I'm not pushing the Assassin, it's just that I have hard numbers for it. My local Martin dealer doesn't have a chronograph so I like to play with the calculators.

If I use the B.I.L. numbers it gives the numbers his came with, 279 fps. I got 279 with 20 grains on the string and 285 without anything on the string. These are just numbers and the page even says it will be close to what the chrono says. They are fun to play with while trying different combos to see how it affects your arrow speed.

At the top of that page it says try our new calc. Here is the link.

http://www.backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/

MLN1963
01-17-2011, 07:06 AM
BTW this discussion is great because I am a lot learning things from you guys. My learning curve is going straight up with all the help around here. Thanks!

geezer047
01-17-2011, 07:21 AM
I got 2 bows that will hit the 300fps+ mark at less than 60 lbs and a 26.5 draw lenght. A Hoyt Ultratec with Spirals and a Matthews Prestige. The Shadowcat with the Cat Cams wan't even come close. But, boys and girls, neither the Hoyt or the Mathews are as forgiving as the Martin. I with Sonny on this, forgivest is way more important than a few fps. My son in his first year shooting ASA (known distance) took his indoor bow and smoked everything he shot, at a whooping 215 fps. So speed ain't everything, a miss is still a miss. Anyway, I would like to see these bow people start using real life numbers on their bows. And BTW, it's always a little funny when you go into a archery shop and they start telling you that you can shoot such and such brand X bow at 320fps at 50 lbs draw and I tell them WHY the speed limit is 280 everywhere I shoot.
Charlie

SonnyThomas
01-17-2011, 08:58 AM
I got 2 bows that will hit the 300fps+ mark at less than 60 lbs and a 26.5 draw length. A Hoyt Ultratec with Spirals and a Matthews Prestige. Charlie

Having shot Hoyts from 1999 up into the summer of 2010, I'd say you were pushing the limit somewhere with getting 300 fps from your UltraTec, especially when it is listed under 320 fps IBO for years 2004 and 5, 317 and 315 fps respectively. Only the UltraElite was faster, 320 fps.
Rules of thumb engaged; Subtract 35 fps and you're in the low to mid 280 fps range.

I ain't sayin' it's not possible, just questionable. My fastest UltraTec, a 2000 listed at 314 fps, nails 295 fps. set to 62 pounds and 29" of draw with a 314 gr arrow. I use one brass nock and a cushion button and a just short of 4" center serving.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
01-17-2011, 12:07 PM
Speed kills. But accuracy if faster. :D:D:D

Hutch

Simple Life
01-17-2011, 12:38 PM
Speed kills. But accuracy if faster. :D:D:D

Hutch

Well said Hutch.Too many people worry about the "speed " of a bow.

bfisher
01-17-2011, 01:07 PM
I keep going over some of the posts here and find that you guys are beginning to leave me way behind. Sorry, but although I like to tinker and have always been a tuning guru I've never delved into tweaking th last fps out of a bow.

I became a staff shooter for a sales rep back in 1993 and for quite a few years chased the mythical 300 fps, never getting close. Then I joined with Martin and had my Slayr doing 308 fps, as I stated earlier.

Some months later I shortened the draw to 27" and shot a lot better. About two months later I moved the mod back to 27.5 and found I couldn't come close to controlling the bow any more. This only points out what Sonny has been saying. Accuracy is much more important than speed, especially in a hunting setup.

In the past I shot a lot of 3D with bows that shot about 265 to 270 fps and frankly my scores are not much different than shooting at 300 fps. Judging distance is something I'm fairly good at. I do know to estimate distance, set the sight, and execute the shot. If you flub the shot you have no idea of whether your judging skills are any good and more speed is not going to compensate for it. And having a case of target panic I do flub my share of shots.

Before I get too far along here I want to explain that I'm no whiz-bang shooter any more. I'm 63 years old with aging eyes and some muscle loss with a condition unknown that leaves me with muscles constantly twitching in my left shoulder down into the arm. With all this against me I still like to shoot. I just recognize and accept that I'm past my prime so shoot for the pure joy of it and keeping active. About all I have left is 38 years of experience which I like to share if it can helps others. Of course I still learn a lot from these forums. I refuse to give up. Surrender is not in my vocabulary.

So that is my rant for the day. Now on with the show.

ElkSlayer
01-17-2011, 02:33 PM
some just have to have the new hotness..They forget that once apon a time, that was 200. If a guy wants to spend all of his energy tring to gain yet another 1-2 fps rather then taming the 280+ he alreay has thats fine with me... I would rather spend my free time on the range shooting a well tuned bow..not one that has be all hyped up to max stress on lims,string twised to almost knots, with arrows just heavy enough to prevent dry fire. I am a long draw guy so perhaps I miss the point :confused:

geezer047
01-17-2011, 02:53 PM
OK, Sonny you may have got me:) I really don't remember trying to get the Ultratec to 300 fps. I assumed that it would because it will shoot the same fps as the Prestige at the same DW. A 275 grain arrow 50 lb DW 26.5 DL = 280fps. The Prestige with a 310 grain Fatboy will hit 300+ at 60lb DW and 26.5 DL. Tried that;)
Anyway need to get with you and work on a good forgiving setup for the Cat. Still fighting that DL on it too. See you.
MR Bfisher, Know what it's like. Been shooting all my life and the last few years my shooting has really went downhill. Eyes going bad, can't see the pins, double vison, shoulders hurting and going from fingers to a release a couple of years ago has giving a bad case of TP. Love to shoot but have been considering giving it up and just bowhunt. But I got 2 sons that live to shoot and both are outstanding archers. Really enjoy going with them and watching them shoot. Guess I could do what I do best, Drive to the shoots and keep score, I,m a Pro at that:)
Charlie

SonnyThomas
01-17-2011, 04:36 PM
I gotta have fun here...


OK, Sonny you may have got me:) I really don't remember trying to get the Ultratec to 300 fps. I assumed that it would because it will shoot the same fps as the Prestige at the same DW. A 275 grain arrow 50 lb DW 26.5 DL = 280fps. The Prestige with a 310 grain Fatboy will hit 300+ at 60lb DW and 26.5 DL. Tried that;)

First, if you assume you know what happens? Just separate s and u and u from m. Second, Hoyt being snobbish, speed doesn't rub off on them and then Hoyts are sterile so breeding for speed is of no use.

Anyway need to get with you and work on a good forgiving setup for the Cat. Still fighting that DL on it too. See you.

If for a longer bow arm we could probably get the draw length correct. A bit of string playing can make the draw length a bit more friendly. Working with the draw stop does help. For the Cat and forgiveness, it sort of depends on what side of the bed the Cat woke up on. One day I can drill flea at 50 yards and the next day they don't make a barn big enough. Headin' for 62 turning the draw weight down and going to a lighter arrow works wonders. I'm looking at the Victory line at the moment. One arrow I've worked up makes me wonder if it will be too light. Heavier tip and larger vanes should correct this.

MR Bfisher, Know what it's like. Been shooting all my life and the last few years my shooting has really went downhill. Eyes going bad, can't see the pins, double vision, shoulders hurting and going from fingers to a release a couple of years ago has giving a bad case of TP.

I went to a slightly larger peep opening and better fiber optic pin. Being blind in one eye and can't see out of the other I can't tell you if it really works. For the double vision you have to work out which one is the real critter and then you good to go. For blurry targets just aim for the center of the blur. For hurting shoulders, first thing in the morning I take Tylenol Arthritis Pain tablets along with my Metform and vitamin pill. Racing motorcycles and riding a few broncs in my younger days I carried Darvon, but now they say the stuff is bad for you. So, I carry a supply of Bayer Aspirin. Probably should have bought Bayer stock. And they say Bayer is good for your heart. According to my wife I don't have to worry as I have no heart. I don't know, something about loving 3D more than her and "why don't you just sleep with your bow."
NOW, this use of profanity in here has got to stop. We'll have no more of that dreaded "bad case" thing you mentioned above.

Love to shoot but have been considering giving it up and just bowhunt. But I got 2 sons that live to shoot and both are outstanding archers. Really enjoy going with them and watching them shoot. Guess I could do what I do best, Drive to the shoots and keep score, I,m a Pro at that:)

Can't help you with the boys as I had only a daughter. Still, I keep score every now and then and when some one groans I just say; "If my billfold felt better I could make your score make you feel better." (groan) I shoot with poor folk.

Charlie

Hope I got out of my system whatever I had..... :D

geezer047
01-18-2011, 11:25 AM
Sonny, well I was tinkering with the Cat and noticed the Hoyt hanging in the rack so just for kicks I chronoed it. I found a 240 grain arrow and set the bow to 48 lbs. 5 grains per lb. Chrono at 295, 295.4 and a 296. Scared that 300 fps mark. With the superpeep out may have hit it:)
Hey git out of the cold and come on down to Fla. with us. And don't forget that bag of drugs us old guys have to have;)
Charlie

elkslayer4x5
01-19-2011, 08:03 AM
i cant say im not in too speed butttt it is something that id like to have but not in the sacrifice of smoothness and accuracy i was just wondering if there was anything to do that would gain a little speed to shut those hoyt mathews and other brand loyals up???

Why, yes there is something that will shut them up, Show them your sales recipt and what you paid for your bow. :)

Hutch~n~Son Archery
01-20-2011, 04:44 PM
If not the sales receipt, the bullseye. Hitting again and again and again then may be the embarrassment will shut them up. :p

HUTCH

Brem
01-21-2011, 08:29 AM
Maybe Im greedy I want fast accurate and a small price tag!!!

bfisher
01-21-2011, 10:44 AM
Maybe Im greedy I want fast accurate and a small price tag!!!

With prices getting to be what they are you must be referring to a rifle. They're cheaper than a bow these days.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
01-21-2011, 11:16 AM
With prices getting to be what they are you must be referring to a rifle. They're cheaper than a bow these days.

Well said!

Hutch