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bb11
01-19-2011, 08:41 PM
So what is the take on this design:

1. Does the new cable guard really reduce torque? If so, how?

2.Does the SOS allow for more consistent arrow/string release and noise?

3. Are older bows upgradeable with these?

Thanks.

Arrow Splitter
01-20-2011, 02:37 PM
So what is the take on this design:

1. Does the new cable guard really reduce torque? If so, how?

2.Does the SOS allow for more consistent arrow/string release and noise?

3. Are older bows upgradeable with these?

Thanks.

1. I would think it would because it seems to hold the cables at a lesser angle
2. This I am not sure on, because I have never shot the 2011 Martins.
3. As far as I know, the answer is no

archerx7
01-20-2011, 06:25 PM
So what is the take on this design:

1. Does the new cable guard really reduce torque? If so, how?

2.Does the SOS allow for more consistent arrow/string release and noise?

3. Are older bows upgradeable with these?

Thanks.

1. Compared to last years ccs, yes it will, it dosen't hold the cables in a static position, they will actually move back closer to the center line of the bow at full draw.

2. On paper it should make a difference, but I can't say for sure as we never had any real problems tuning last years models with the low mount sts. It's really not much quieter than the low mount when both are setup correctly, although there is less riser movement with the sos than with the sts.

3. The older bows that used a 3/8" cable rod mounted above the shelf should be upgradeable to this system.

SonnyThomas
01-20-2011, 06:46 PM
The SOS has a capture effect and movable. TRG does not house the cables like slides do. The cables are out in the open and slide on a fair wide angled surface - which I have to say it looks as a benefit. This of course eliminates the guide sliding on the rod. A secondary thing maybe, but no need of removing the cables from the guide to wax them.

bb11
01-29-2011, 11:40 AM
thanks guys!

MLN1963
01-30-2011, 10:28 AM
Does anyone with a TRG/SOS shoot FOBs? I'd like to know if the new system is in the way for FOBs?

archerx7
01-30-2011, 02:57 PM
Does anyone with a TRG/SOS shoot FOBs? I'd like to know if the new system is in the way for FOBs?

If I rotate an arrow fletched w/blazers so a vane is inline with the TRG there is appox. 1/8" clearance. The TRG can be rotated slightly to provide a bit more clearance if needed.

dan476
02-02-2011, 05:00 PM
I have an 08 MOAB pro-hunter and just had trg/sos system installed, I really like it, feels like big improvement, but i didn't have a string stop before then so that probably has a lot to do with it. I also had to shorten the rod a bit.

SonnyThomas
02-02-2011, 05:51 PM
I have an 08 MOAB pro-hunter and just had trg/sos system installed, I really like it, feels like big improvement, but i didn't have a string stop before then so that probably has a lot to do with it. I also had to shorten the rod a bit.

We were informed the TRG wouldn't work on bows prior to 2011. ???

dan476
02-02-2011, 05:54 PM
its on my MOAB and it works just fine. All that needed to be modified was the TRG rod had to be shortened.

MLN1963
02-02-2011, 07:46 PM
Can you post pics of the TRG on your Moab?

dan476
02-04-2011, 09:47 AM
Sure i will post some pics once i get home from work.

dan476
02-04-2011, 04:19 PM
as promissed, here are some pictures of my 08 MOAB with TRG/SOS installed.

archerx7
02-04-2011, 04:29 PM
Nice setup dan, the 08/09 Moabs are nice shooting bows.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-04-2011, 04:58 PM
Nice setup dan, the 08/09 Moabs are nice shooting bows.

X2 always liked that bow.

Hutch:cool:

dan476
02-04-2011, 10:12 PM
Thank you guys, I love that bow.

MLN1963
02-04-2011, 10:37 PM
Dan, did the TRG and SOS come as a pair or did you order everything separately? Do you mind if I ask what that run?

dan476
02-05-2011, 07:57 AM
MLN,

I had my local archery shop install TRG/SOS at the same time.
As for ordering from Martin, you can order it as a package, or separately. Look up new 2011 Martin catalog, page 53.

Rockyhud
02-10-2011, 03:57 PM
Dan, thanks for posting those pics. I have an 08 Firecat and have been seriously thinking of buying a TRG/SOS system but have been told it won't work. This really get's my excitement level up (again) as I contacted Martin and even spoke with Joel who told me this system isn't compatible with older bows like mine. After expressing I REALLY wanted to buy this to experiment with it he finally transferred my call to Carly in sales. She confirmed I couldn't buy them through the online store but gave me the name of a pro dealer, saying I could have them order it for me and they'd have it drop-shipped to my house direct. She didn't tell me now much it would cost (didn't know), although Joel estimated it might be in the $45 range.

Seeing your setup is very encouraging. I noticed you even installed a set screw in the exact same location I did to secure the guide rod. Our bows are almost identical, having the same riser, with the only thing really different being your bow has the M-Pro single cam and mine has CAT cams. Have you checked for cam lean, limb tip lean or cable contact with the cam modules during ANY part of the draw cycle? Those are some of the things I was told were the problems with using the TRG on my bow.

Also, if you don't mind, can you tell us how much these parts cost you?

MLN1963
02-10-2011, 05:21 PM
Have you checked for cam lean, limb tip lean or cable contact with the cam modules during ANY part of the draw cycle? Those are some of the things I was told were the problems with using the TRG on my bow.



That is interesting since those are the things it's designed to eliminate. Removing the torque helps with cam lean as I understand it. Isn't that why the shoot thru bows don't have cam lean? :confused:

Ehunter
02-10-2011, 05:29 PM
Kind of suprising to me as well that those are concerns. I would think the only real concern would be string and cable length. Letting them come in closer to the bow, even at rest would make me think that the cables and string would need to be a hair shorter. On my Firecat, it looks like the cables sit closer to centerline at rest than they do on my Moab with the cable rod and slide.

Arrow Splitter
02-10-2011, 05:53 PM
That is interesting since those are the things it's designed to eliminate.
Removing the torque helps with cam lean as I understand it.
Isn't that why the shoot thru bows don't have cam lean? :confused:

The TRG will not eliminate torque, but it will help reduce it.

You are correct.

Shoot through bows don't have torque/cam lean because there is nothing pulling out on the cables.

Rockyhud
02-10-2011, 07:05 PM
I fully understand what you guys are saying about torque and that being the main area of improvement TRG is supposed to provide. That's part of what puzzled me when I got email from Martin saying these were potential problems areas when using the TRG on older bows like mine that use CAT cams. Their explanation was there's a difference between the new Nitro cams and CAT cams that causes this incompatibility to exist; the tension from the cables is applied to the cams differently through the draw cycle and thus causes issues with older bows.

As I had been away from home on a business trip recently and didn't have my bow to look at and compare to the 2011 bows I could only take their word on it. When I returned I had pretty good memory of how the Nitro cams looked and were oriented in the limb tips, so when I checked out my cams I honestly couldn't come to a logical reason for their story holding true. Yes, there are obviously differences, especially to the side where the cables wind up around the axle but the cam wheel the string runs on looks to be exactly the same position and offset on both bows. The cables track onto the cams somewhat differently but not extremely so as memory serves me.

I don't know if anyone else with an "older" CAT cammed bow has tried using the TRG/SOS but I can't imagine I'm the only one who would like to hear from them and what they experienced. I'm still seriously considering buy the combo and trying it out.

dan476
02-11-2011, 07:25 PM
Rockyhud,

How are you? I've had this system on my bow for a few weeks now and have not noticed any cam lean or any other cam/limb problems. 2 things i have noticed though were a rubber stop piece on SOS tore after approximatelly 100 shots. I had my local shop replace that and have not had that problem again. Second, i am starting to notice that my string is starting to fray a little where it rides on TRG. This could be attributed to my string being old though. I've had bow for 3 years with the minimal use but string is starting to show its age. Once i replace it I will be able to make better judgement.

As for the price, I'll be honest I am not even sure. The archery shop i got it istalled at tried 2 different string stoppers before this one, but they didn't work very well, so they installed this system. They were not sure how much it cost so i gave them $50, but once my shop finds out the price I will either get some money back or pay a little more.

hope this helps.
Dan

MLN1963
02-11-2011, 07:35 PM
The TRG will not eliminate torque, but it will help reduce it.

You are correct.

Shoot through bows don't have torque/cam lean because there is nothing pulling out on the cables.

Okay Arrow Splitter, you have me on poor word choice but the TRG is supposed to reduce it. I believe the rest of my statement is on point. REDUCE the torque, reduce the cam lean.

Arrow Splitter
02-12-2011, 04:45 AM
REDUCE the torque, reduce the cam lean.

Right on! :D

elkslayer4x5
02-12-2011, 08:35 AM
That is interesting since those are the things it's designed to eliminate. Removing the torque helps with cam lean as I understand it. Isn't that why the shoot thru bows don't have cam lean? :confused:

Yes that is why shoot thru bows don't have limb tourque, because the limbs are pulled down evenly by the 4 cables, connected to the cam on one end and the cam axle on the other end. Makes them very easy to tune. :D

Rockyhud
02-12-2011, 12:42 PM
Dan, thanks for the feedback. I have a few more questions, when you get a chance to answer (hopefully). Thanks in advance.

First, you said you noticed some fraying of your string where it passed through the TRG. I presume you had an original Martin slide and cable guard previously. Did you notice any fraying while using that setup? I still have my original string and cables too and have hardly any fraying in all this time and I've shot it quite a bit, especially the first couple of years. I do keep them waxed well and fairly often which I believe has helped. I changed my cable rod slide out for a BowTurbo briefly then back to the OEM slide and then bought a Saunders Hyper-Glide Slide that's been on the bow for about a year with good results - very smooth drawing and no cable wear caused by it to this point.

Second, I noticed there's quite a distance between the SOS and string in you photos posted earlier. You also mentioned the pro shop shortened the rod some and that you had to replace the SOS rubber piece. Did you initially have the SOS position closer to the string than you do now? Was shortening the rod done after the first rubber dampener tore to prevent the new dampener from tearing or was it to find the position that provided quietest performance?

I ask these last few questions as I set my string-to-STS distance much closer; about 1/16" gap, to attain the best, quietest performance.

Rockyhud
02-17-2011, 07:27 PM
I finally decided to pull the trigger on buying the TRG/SOS system to try out on my Firecat. I also bought a pair of the new VEM modules.

The TRG and SOS are finally available through the online catalog but for whatever reason the new VEM modules aren't listed. I called Martin and spoke with Joel to see if I could buy all items over the phone. He then connected me with Carly in sales. She said Martin can't take individual customer orders over the phone but said I could order all these parts from a Pro dealer. She advised me to contact F/S Archery to make an order and have it drop-shipped direct to my home. So this is what I did and it went well.

I'm anxious to get the TRG/SOS on and see if it works OK or not. If they work I'll be able to remove the bottom STS and the custom upper STS I made, making the bow look a little leaner.

The new VEM modules are supposed to be fully compatible with older bows and dampen vibes and noise even better than the originals I have. My bow is shooting pretty darn accurate and quiet even now - it will be interesting to see/hear if these make it even quieter.

As soon as I get the TRG/SOS on and have some time to verify if they'll work OK or not I'll report back on my findings. I'll also give an update on the new VEMs.

CarlosII
02-18-2011, 03:08 AM
Joan (who may or may not still be with Martin) told me the TRG will not work on my 2010 Shadowcat. I really wanted to try it but according to her, the rod size is different.

Rockyhud
02-19-2011, 02:18 PM
CarlosII, I'm not certain if this is the case, but if the 2010 Shadowcat had the same design as the Firecat and some others for attaching the cable guard rod or CCS then you were informed correctly. The 2010 Firecat has a squared or rectangular slot in the side of the riser for attaching the guard rod or CCS where as my 08 Firecat has a 3/8" guard rod hole which matches the 2011 TRG rod size.

bb11
02-25-2011, 09:17 AM
I wonder if they say that because the cams were designed to work with some lean and if one were to add the new STS, it would result in opposite cam lean?:confused:

Spiker
02-25-2011, 10:36 AM
I think Rockyhud explained the fitment issue.
If you have a model that has the ccs or will accept the ccs then the trg/sos setup is not going to work on it.
If you have a model that uses a 3/8" hole in the riser for a regular cable slide - then you could mount the trg/sos.
Mounting the trg in the cable slide bracket that mounts to the side of the riser (if possible) would put the cables way out to the side.

Just my thoughts...

Rockyhud
02-28-2011, 07:46 PM
My new parts arrived today and are now installed. Like dan476 I discovered the rod length needed to be shortened. I cut mine off just shy of 1-inch. After installing and tweaking the TRG position I decided it was time to check out how "things" fit throughout the draw cycle. I placed the string over the hook I hang my bow on (drilled into a wall stud) and slowly pulled it through the full cycle, looking for ANY interference between the cables and modules as well as how the cables traversed the TRG angled slots. They have clearance all the way through the cycle, although they are fairly close to the module edges towards the end, but then just as the module flat comes into play they move back just as they're simultaneously moving toward the center.

After repeating this exercise several times and checking both cams and looking for any contact with the serving on both cables it appears there is none. Whew! That was a relief.

Next, I put my release on and with an arrow loaded drew the bow back and let down several times, slowly the first few times and more rapidly later on. Checking it all over again afterward I still came up with no apparent contact between cables and modules. One thing I did take notice of was the draw cycle seemed improved - near the end as it was about to drop into the valley it seemed to have a little less hump than before - not a big difference but noticeable.

As it was already way past dark, along with windy and cold, I didn't get to shoot it tonight. Lord willing we'll have decent weather for a few more days this week so I might get a chance to do that after work. Once I do I'll have some more info to report back with. In the meantime here are some photos I took. As you'll notice I decided to leave the original STS on. I did this thinking it couldn't hurt and also because as I looked at the string sections between the cams, where the SOS and STS makes contact, it appeared the contact points are about the same distance from the cam to each of these devices which might help control the string better as it comes to rest after the shot. I also thought by dampening the section between the SOS and STS, where the arrow is nocked and released from the string, this section might be better controlled too. Anyway, that's how my mind is rationalizing it now. If the TRG/SOS works out, the only other thing I'll do is put my Limb Savers cable guard rod dampener on the TRG rod to dampen any vibes and noise it might make during and after the shot.

So, without further adieu, here are the first photos of my new creation.

gstudt
03-01-2011, 07:18 AM
I am looking to mount one on all my bows. However, some modifying will be necessary for the older bows.

1 primary reason why is the older bows have the center of the cable rod to the right of the handle (right handed shooters). The new 2011 TRG handles are machined to put part of the rod into the handle or further to the left. (Guessing about 3/8" different) Unless you mount the new TRG on a off set (bent) rod it will not be adjustable enough to get the full benefit it was designed to give you.

I hope that helps.

Another note Serve your cables with Mini Halo for even better performance.

alex
03-01-2011, 07:52 AM
That's a fancy set-up, Rockyhud :) You have so many things on the bow!

Rockyhud
03-01-2011, 09:59 AM
Thanks Alex. Actually most extra parts are vibe/noise dampening devices, if I'm looking at it the same as you are. The bow came with the lower STS and limb dampeners but I added the BowJax RiserJax (near each end of the riser), the cable and string leaches and a quick disconnect (QD) for the front stabilizer, so the bow can still fit in my bow case. The QD also enables me to switch quickly between the Sims X-coil for hunting and my B-Stinger stabilizer if I want to use it when recreational target shooting.

I also added No-Glove finger shooting aids to the string and rest activation line. Last year I noticed some Strother bows had these in place of speed nocks on the string, with the rationale being they strategically added weight to the string to help increase speed (i.e., speed nocks) and at the same time the material enables each piece to act as a string vibe dampening device. I removed the original speed nocks and installed these on the string first then added them to the Limb Driver arrow rest activation line later, as I discovered it was causing some noise as it was drawn tight when the upper limb returned to it's static position, when forcing the arrow rest fork down.

I'm thinking seriously of replacing the rubber leaches on the string with musk ox wool string silencers as these type (rubber and natural fiber) silencers are said to be more effective at dampening string vibes and consequent noise.

Rockyhud
03-01-2011, 10:50 AM
I forgot to add that I also installed a Hunter's Specialties Bow Sling too. This sling has a "permanently" attached plastic clip on each limb, near the riser/limb pocket, that the sling web clips into, making it quick, easy and relatively quiet to disconnect when I don't want it on. This sling makes it convenient when I need to use both hands for climbing, pushing brush aside or other similar situations or when I need to use my binos and I don't want to lay my bow down. The sling is adjustable so I can change how high it rests next to my torso so it doesn't whack into stuff I have on my belt or get caught no low-lying brush. When using the sling I generally carry the bow with the strap over the opposite shoulder so it doesn't slide down all the time like a rifle sling tends to do. I discovered this sling position works well when I rifle hunt as I have a Safari Sling on my rifle.

To some these things may look like a lot of extra weight and cost but in my case they don't add much of either. The RiserJax were $20, the sling was $20, the leaches about $10-15, the No-Glove aids about $4 per package (2 packs used), the X-coil stab about $26 and the QD was $18. The costliest additions have been the TRG/SOS and new VEM modules (about $75 including shipping). Now, if you add the sight, rest and no-peep these obviously cost considerably more but everyone spends more in these versus the costs involved with noise reducing items. Considering the amount of noise they suppress and how valuable that is to a bow hunter it's not much.

alex
03-01-2011, 01:21 PM
It should be really quiet!

Rockyhud
03-01-2011, 07:37 PM
From what some others I've shot with have told me they agree it is quiet. A friend and former colleague recently emailed me, asking what brand and model bow I have. I replied back and asked why he asked. He said he'd been shooting with his brother and brother's friend, both of whom have Mathews and said he thought there's were quiet but also thought mine was just as quiet if not more so.

Last summer, while camping in the Colorado mountains, our daughter and future son-in-law, Cameron, came to stay with us. One day I pulled out the bow and shot my field point target for a while. This got Cameron's interest piqued as I shot from further and further distance. He finally decided he'd like to try shooting it some as it had been quite some time since he'd shot a bow. After a few instructions he was ready. This gave me a chance to stand back and watch him shoot as well as listen to my bow. Standing about 10 feet away I was amazed how much quieter it sounded than when I'm the one shooting. Moving a little further away I was even more impressed - this bow really is pretty quiet, especially considering it's a speed/hunting bow.

Part of this is due to the several dampeners I've installed but part of it's also due to shooting heavier arrows. My lightest arrows weigh in at 450 grains and my heaviest weigh 560 grains. This additional weight allows the bow to take a just a little more time transferring its stored energy into the arrow during the shot and helping to make a quieter shot.

On a different topic I got a little bit of time this evening to put about 20 arrows through the bow with the TRG/SOS and new VEMs installed. I was curious as to whether there would be any differences in sound, vibes and accuracy. I was pleased with the results. The sound is a little higher in frequency/pitch but not louder and it seems the duration of the noise impulse is a little shorter than before. There was no change in vibes felt in the riser which is good as there were none before. As for accuracy I couldn't really tell if there was any change as it was way past what would be legal shooting light when I started and the light faded fast as I shot, to the point the bull's eyes were getting hard to distinguish at 30+ yards. One thing I did notice was the point of impact seemed to have shifted some to the right, based on how the arrows were grouping when shooting at the same spot. I can only speculate this being due to the TRG and how it deals with the torque on the cables as opposed to how the regular slide handled the torque. I'm hoping the weather holds out more so I can get some more shooting time with better light to get a better impression of the effects of changing to the TRG/SOS and new VEMs.

There was another thing I was anxious to find out and that was whether or not there would be any contact between the cables and cams. I had a pretty good idea from checking things out last night, while slowly drawing and relaxing the bow, that there was a good chance there wouldn't be any contact, but sometimes things behave differently at normal speeds. I was very relieved to find no evidence of contact anywhere after the shooting session. I also didn't see any evidence of wear in the areas where the cables run through the TRG. Also, the impression I got last night that the draw was a little smoother and the drop into the valley had a little less "hump" was reaffirmed. From what I remember about how the Onza 3 felt when I got a chance to shoot one recently, my Firecat's draw cycle seems very similar. I am definitely pleased with the results so far.

bb11
03-01-2011, 10:26 PM
Congrats Rocky! Great bit of work! And thanks for all the posts! Enjoy the fruit of your efforts!!
cheers!

dan476
03-16-2011, 10:05 PM
Hey Rocky,

any updates from your set up?
nothing on mine except that i tore thru the second rubber now.

CarlosII
03-17-2011, 02:47 AM
Hey Rocky,

any updates from your set up?
nothing on mine except that i tore thru the second rubber now.
OH NO!!! sure hope nothing develops from THAT!

dan476
03-17-2011, 09:26 AM
I don't think its anything serious, just the way my string is hitting the rubber. I adjusted the stop to the left a bit so we'll see if anything changes. Also has anyone with TRG/SOS on their brand new bows tore thru those?

Rockyhud
03-17-2011, 04:26 PM
While I probably haven't shot as many arrows through mine as Dan has (probably about a 100 or a little more) I haven't seen any deterioration of my SOS rubber element. A friend is having about 20 bow hunters over to his place this weekend for some target shooting, socializing with other hunters and eats. I hope to put several more shots through the bow while I'm there. If there's any new developments with my TRG/SOS I'll definitely post them here.

One thing I did different than Dan was to install the TRG in such a position that I was able to attach the SOS so the string is just barely applying pressure. I've even pulled the rubber element off a couple of times to check for any tearing, stretching or any other wear and so far it looks like it did when I first installed it. I also haven't seen any cable wear from the TRG either. So, as best I can tell right now this system is working quite well on my bow. I don't know if adjusting your SOS like mine would make any difference with your setup or not but it might be worth a try. I hope you figure out why your SOS rubber isn't lasting any longer than it is.