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NuttyNative
02-09-2011, 06:38 PM
I'm looking to get into a Martin bow. I love the looks & feel of the cloaked Pantera. However, my dealer doesn't have any lefty's in stock for me to shoot. I currently shoot a twin cam Bowtech and would like to move over to a single cam bow. I've been researching Martins and have a few questions for the people that should know.
The Pantera, Bengal, Cheetah, and Firecar TR1 all have pretty much the same specs. The only difference I can see is the brace height, with the exception of the 30" ata on the Cheetah. So, are these bows all the same? How much difference does 1/4" of brace height make? Is the Cheetah "twitchy" due to the short ata? Do the Martins have a forgiving valley? Also, does the CCS system have an advantage over the slide?

alex
02-10-2011, 03:18 AM
They all are very good bows. The shorter the BH the faster the bow ... but less comfortable and forgiving to shoot. I have a 2008 MOAB - it's almost the same bow as the TR1 and i like it very much. It depends on your preference but i'd take a bow with a longer A2A. I can't say about the CCS, because i've never used one, but the good old cable slide does the job good enough. However the 2011 models have a new system - the TRG which is quite different from both the CCS and the slider.

archerx7
02-10-2011, 05:07 AM
If you are looking at the 2010's, IMO the Pantera was the better choice of the bows you have listed, while it shares the same specs as the TR1 and Bengal, the riser geometry is alittle different. The Pantera's limbs have a bit more preload and go a little more beyond paralell at full draw making it a little quieter and vibration free at the shot. With the 2010's, you can change the ccs to a rod/slide or the other way around depending on what the bow comes with. Either system works fine, no real advantage with either system. The 2011's come with the TRG which can also be changed out for a standard rod and slide if desired.
Can't answer your question on the Cheetah as I haven't had much time behind one of those, I'm sure one of the Cheetah owners on here will chime in and give their opinion.

NuttyNative
02-10-2011, 05:14 AM
Was looking at a 2011 Pantera at a dealer and the others on Martins website. I beleve my Bowtech is 32 or 32.5 ata.

bowhntr
02-11-2011, 05:26 PM
I dont know about the other bows but i own the tr1 and i am very happy with it. I got it for 350 because it was left over from last year. good bow

justin
02-11-2011, 06:40 PM
i dont find the cheetah twichy..... but thats comparing it to an alien x which has just a bit more ata than the cheetah. .... :p

NuttyNative
02-13-2011, 02:32 PM
C'mon guy's, looking for input here.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-13-2011, 02:48 PM
What are you exactly looking to find out? Martin's line of bows are less expensive, just as accurate as other brands and fine shooters. After that it is just preference. I shoot a left handed 2010 Bengal, an excellent bow. And have owned many other martins. As you mentioned in the beginning you are interested in the Pantera. I have not owned one but I know they are a super bow. And as far as I know the Pantera has not had many problems.

Hutch:cool:

Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-13-2011, 02:56 PM
Also you mentioned about bh. The more bh, the more forgiving the bow is. The longer the ATA better the shooter it is . The shorter ATA like the cheetah the more accurate you have to be. As far as ccs some like them some don't. I myself prefer cable rod. Hope this helps

HUTCH:cool:

archerx7
02-13-2011, 03:43 PM
C'mon guy's, looking for input here.

I have shot all the bows you have mentioned a good deal, with the exception of the Cheetah. I have shot a number of Cheetahs while setting them up and tuning them for customers, but I've never set one up just for me to shoot.
The other bows you mention, I have pulled from the rack and setup to my specs and shot. If I had to pick just one of those to shoot, it would be the Pantera.
They all have a very similar draw cycle, but the Pantera seems to hold better and feels a little better at the shot, which may be because the riser geometry is similar to the AlienX that I own.

If your current bow is 32"AtA, I would suggest staying with something similar.

If your local shop dosen't have a left hand Pantera in stock for you to shoot, have them setup a right hand with about 5# less DW and shoot it left handed. You will still be able to get a feel for how the bow draws and shoots. I have had a few southpaws come in and try new bows this way. I have also setup and shot left hand bows right handed. Its not the ideal situation, but will give you some feed back.

NuttyNative
02-16-2011, 05:13 PM
Narrowed it down to a Pantrea or Firecat 360.

SonnyThomas
02-16-2011, 05:29 PM
I was just thinking about the title, User friendly Martins. They are friendly for the user, but I don't think any more than the next bow provided you work with whatever next bow. I mean, I set up a Martin just as easy as I do a Hoyt or Pearson. Figure it's just like starting a new type of line of work, awkward and draining to start and then after a while things just become easier.

bfisher
02-16-2011, 05:52 PM
I was just thinking about the title, User friendly Martins. They are friendly for the user, but I don't think any more than the next bow provided you work with whatever next bow. I mean, I set up a Martin just as easy as I do a Hoyt or Pearson. Figure it's just like starting a new type of line of work, awkward and draining to start and then after a while things just become easier.

Very true, Sonny. Although there are differences between bows, setting them up and tuning them is all the same procedure. Some are little more complicated, but not so much that they can't be figured out.

SonnyThomas
02-16-2011, 06:34 PM
Very true, Sonny. Although there are differences between bows, setting them up and tuning them is all the same procedure. Some are little more complicated, but not so much that they can't be figured out.

Yep. I'm down to the point I don't use a B.H. all that much. :D

Ray from Auburn
02-17-2011, 03:04 AM
I vote for Pantera, which I use in my hub groundblind. Can shoot this bow all day. Easy draw, quiet, forgiving, love it.

NuttyNative
02-17-2011, 03:25 AM
Very true, Sonny. Although there are differences between bows.

This is what I'm looking for. For some reason there aren't many Martins around these parts and I have nobody local to ask other than a dealer that's trying to push them out the door. Mathews, Bowtech, Diamond, PSE, and Hoyt run rampant here. I felt the members of this forum could give me an insite on the Martin line-up. Smooth draw, easy maint, do's & don'ts, draw weight charistics, tuning tips, and whatever you can think of.
I am wanting to get into a smooth single cam bow. As Hutch said, Martins are more affordable although that's not why I'm looking at them. I've had a few bows that needed constant tinkering to be accurate, a few that lost their comfort, and one that I love but is getting harder to pull back by the end of the day.
The cloaked Pantera caught my attention as did the Firecat 360. I am a hunter first and target guy/3D shooter second. Elk, deer, antelope, and turkey are what I hunt.

NuttyNative
02-18-2011, 06:14 PM
If your local shop dosen't have a left hand Pantera in stock for you to shoot, have them setup a right hand with about 5# less DW and shoot it left handed. You will still be able to get a feel for how the bow draws and shoots. I have had a few southpaws come in and try new bows this way. I have also setup and shot left hand bows right handed. Its not the ideal situation, but will give you some feed back.

I did this today with a 2010 Pantera. Gotta say the draw cycle and valley were sweet around 57lbs. I had them turn it up to 61, then to 70. At each level the draw seemed harsher, not as fluid as the lower weight. The two constants that were present were the nice valley to wall, and the noise.
I belive this is one of the loudest bow's I've ever shot. Is this common? Dealer say's yes, they (Martins) need to be tweeked quite a bit to get them quieter. Arrow selection made a huge difference. The bow seemed to like the full metal jackets best.
They are still waiting on the 2011's and he said Martin has alot of improvements on these. The biggest in his opinion is the roto cup limb pockets. He is wanting me to try the Onza & Friecats.

HawgEnvy
02-18-2011, 07:29 PM
I've got a 2010 Cheetah w the Mpro cam. It drawa smooth,shoots smooth w no hand shock,plenty fast for me though I haven't chrono'd it and probably won't,nock splitting accuracy,comfy grip. My ONLY complaint,actually more of an annoyance,when I hold the bow,it seems to twist in my hand. Like it's got a quiver full of arrows but without. But I shoot it accurately and it feels like an extension of my arm.

bfisher
02-19-2011, 05:35 AM
I did this today with a 2010 Pantera. Gotta say the draw cycle and valley were sweet around 57lbs. I had them turn it up to 61, then to 70. At each level the draw seemed harsher, not as fluid as the lower weight. The two constants that were present were the nice valley to wall, and the noise.
I belive this is one of the loudest bow's I've ever shot. Is this common? Dealer say's yes, they (Martins) need to be tweeked quite a bit to get them quieter. Arrow selection made a huge difference. The bow seemed to like the full metal jackets best.
They are still waiting on the 2011's and he said Martin has alot of improvements on these. The biggest in his opinion is the roto cup limb pockets. He is wanting me to try the Onza & Friecats.

If noise is an issue with yours then maybe a few twists of the string and/or cables could make a difference. Sometimes altering the cam orientation will reap huge benefits. Playing with the position of the STS can help. And there is always the old standby called Cat Whiskers, although the STS is supposed to be the answer to this. Never discount the accessories. Often it's these that make the most noise, especially drop away rests and quivers, if you're shooting with a quiver on it.

Hawg, that twisting motion or sensation you feel is just a byproduct of having a super short bow. Something you either get used to or get a longer bow next time. Personally I'll opt for the longer bow.

archerx7
02-19-2011, 05:39 AM
I did this today with a 2010 Pantera. Gotta say the draw cycle and valley were sweet around 57lbs. I had them turn it up to 61, then to 70. At each level the draw seemed harsher, not as fluid as the lower weight. The two constants that were present were the nice valley to wall, and the noise.
I belive this is one of the loudest bow's I've ever shot. Is this common? Dealer say's yes, they (Martins) need to be tweeked quite a bit to get them quieter. Arrow selection made a huge difference. The bow seemed to like the full metal jackets best.
They are still waiting on the 2011's and he said Martin has alot of improvements on these. The biggest in his opinion is the roto cup limb pockets. He is wanting me to try the Onza & Friecats.

This is not really common, especially on the Pantera. If the string and cable are set to spec and the sts is properly adjusted it should be extremely quiet. The rubber stopper will also affect how loud the bow is, the BowJax Macdaddy is by far the quietest unit.

Assuming the bow has the factory yellow/black speckled strings, they are probably out of spec unless your shop pulled them off and measured them, most of the ones I saw were out of spec right out of the box and this will have some bearing on how the bow feels at the shot. The assembly techs seem to be doing a much better job this year with the bows coming in very close to spec right out of the box.

bfisher
02-19-2011, 06:09 AM
I wonder if that might be due to the GREEN strings? Is Martin using the Hammerhead strings on all the bows or just the Pros series? If so then maybe better string material coupled with better attention to their assembly would account for better bow specs out of the box.

NuttyNative
02-19-2011, 06:33 AM
I don't recall what string was on it. Think it was yellow & black? There was a rubber mounted quiver on it, limb driver rest, didn't pay attention to the sight because I wasn't using it anyway (right hand).
The STS looked to be set right, based on how my bow is setup. I also use a Rip Cord and no noise at all comes from it. If I'm not mistaken all the noise was comming from the string, I don't believe they were the Hammerheads. I'm sure that playing with/making adjustments would benefit it greatly. As I said, arrow choice made huge differences in noise. They did not have any Easton Axis for demo, only Gold Tip (don't know what spine) and the full metal jackets.

archerx7
02-19-2011, 07:48 AM
I wonder if that might be due to the GREEN strings? Is Martin using the Hammerhead strings on all the bows or just the Pros series? If so then maybe better string material coupled with better attention to their assembly would account for better bow specs out of the box.

Barry, The Hammerhead strings are used on both Pro and Gold series this year. They started with them very late in2010 as they used up the supply of the other strings. All bows are now shipped with a quality check list that has to be signed off by 2 inspectors before the bow is shipped.

Spiker
02-19-2011, 08:23 AM
Barry, The Hammerhead strings are used on both Pro and Gold series this year. They started with them very late in2010 as they used up the supply of the other strings. All bows are now shipped with a quality check list that has to be signed off by 2 inspectors before the bow is shipped.

Now that is some great news!

Arrow Splitter
02-19-2011, 08:39 AM
Now that is some great news!

I'd say.:cool::cool::cool:

HawgEnvy
02-19-2011, 05:21 PM
bfisher, thanks for the input. I didn't think of the short bow syndrome. It's the shortest I've shot. I like it,though. Nothing I can't get used to.

bfisher
02-19-2011, 06:58 PM
Now that is some great news!

Honestly, it's good to hear that the premium strings are used on all the bows now. It's also nice to hear that the bows are not only being assembled, but also another person is checking them before they get shipped. Now whether person #2 is actually checking them or pencil whipping the form might be up for speculation, but I'd like to think that because Martin is showing some interest in better quality control that the person (s) doing the job would do so with integrity in mind. At least it seems maybe Martin is answering some customer requests for better QC before shipment.

NuttyNative
02-19-2011, 07:37 PM
The guys at the shop here said " Factory Martin strings are for looks, first thing you'll want to change" They are patiently waiting for the 2011's with all the new improvements.

NuttyNative
02-27-2011, 09:23 PM
Got some questions on the Firecat's.
Draw weight is draw weight right? 60lbs is 60lbs and so on...
Is getting to that point different with dual cams vs a single cam?
Meaning will the draw cycle be smoother on one over the other?

Here is my delima. My BT is at 68lbs and is getting harder to draw as the day go on. I don't like the way it feels when I turn it down to 60. The draw is much better but it feels "spongy" and I don't like the limbs that far away from the riser. I've been told that a single cam has an easier draw cycle and I want to drop down to 60lb max. I also believe a 60lb bow maxed out will out perform one that has been turned down.
Not really into the speed game but would like stay somewhere between 290-310 with a 425 grain arrow. I have a 30.5" draw and shoot 29 1/4" arrows. Hunting in Nevada requires 15-60 yard shots most of the time.

SonnyThomas
02-28-2011, 06:16 AM
Yes, draw weight is draw weight. It's just that some draw weight is easier or smoother coming up due to cam design whether single or dual cam.

If speaking the M Pro cam, yes, I believe it is smoother than the Catcams.

If 68 pounds is harder to draw as the day goes on then you are over bowed, a smoother cam won't help.

If speaking of the Catcams and this "spongy" feeling perhaps the bow is either out of time, draw stop off or both. Timed and draw stop set correctly the Catcams have a rock solid wall.

There may be some performance loss with limbs backed off, but today's closer tolerance and design seems well to maintain accuracy.

Any 60 pound bow, with extremely few exceptions, will be hard pressed to hit those speeds with a 425 gr arrow. 270 to 280 fps would be more realistic and this would pack a hefty amount of KE with a 425 gr arrow.

Hunting 60 yard shots with a bow. I'm not saying they are not possible, but so many variables say it's unethical if not kind of dumb. Wind effect on arrow, animal taking one step, turning? I won't take such a shot. 40 yards is my max and I've never had to take a 40 yard shot. 36 yards is the longest kill shot I've taken, twice, and never attempted before. I felt everything was on my side when I took these shots.

NuttyNative
02-28-2011, 08:15 AM
Thanks Sonny,
I'm not talking about the Catcams. My questions were directed at the Firecats.
My BT (07 Guardian 60-70) has Binarycams on it and getting "over the hump" is what I'm trying to get away from. I have been seriously looking at the 2011 Firecats. I like the length & look of the riser very much.
Last year I had no issues with the BT set where it's at. I also think I'm over bowed at this point. Possibly weaker from winter? I'm a big guy, 6'3" and 280lbs. I have no problem admitting or accepting the fact I'm having issues at 68lbs. Either way I want to get into a 60lb bow.
The 400 has the new Nitro 2.0 Hybird Pro cams and I was looking for any advice/comments on them vs the 360 with the Acu-Track single cam. Sorry for the confusion.
As for distance, to date my longets kill was at 45 yards and that is my limit on everything but Elk. Yes, I would take a 60 yard shot on one. Closer is nice but we can't always get that close. Last year I took an Antelope at 30 yards with a lung shot. Pretty confident with my shot placement and equipment. Just want to get more comfortable. I'm fine with the BT up to about 30 shots before it get's harder. I want to be able to shoot 50 or more and not feel wore out.
I could drop the arrow weight down a bit if needed. The KE numbers are great on the BT, somewhere around 81 with that arrow and I think I'm right at 302 fps.

MLN1963
02-28-2011, 08:36 AM
I shot the single cam FC360 and dual cam FC400 recently. I don't think there was much of a hump on the 400 but it did ramp up faster than the single cam. You notice it if they are both at the same draw weight.