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View Full Version : Brass nocking point or Tie?



Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-11-2011, 02:05 PM
I do tie nocks?
But I have seen brass nocks on many bows.
How many still use brass nocking points?
How many use tie nocking points?

Hutch:cool:

gibson 787
02-11-2011, 02:32 PM
Hey Hutch, still use brass nocks, much easier to move around when tuning. Found the speed loss is not enough to worry about. Also, my loop is tied under my nock point.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-11-2011, 02:42 PM
Hey Hutch, still use brass nocks, much easier to move around when tuning. Found the speed loss is not enough to worry about. Also, my loop is tied under my nock point.
So do you use a Torque-less catfish loop?

gibson 787
02-11-2011, 02:50 PM
Tried the catfish loop, but settled on just a normal loop. I do however adjust the tiller on my bow and always end up with the top limb eased off a bit.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-11-2011, 02:59 PM
Tried the catfish loop, but settled on just a normal loop. I do however adjust the tiller on my bow and always end up with the top limb eased off a bit.
Thats why I asked about the catfish loop. But you are way a head of me:o
So the tiller adjustment does well for you?

Hutch

gibson 787
02-11-2011, 03:08 PM
So the tiller adjustment does well for you?

A properly tillered bow makes the draw cycle and the hold, not to mention arrow flight so much better.

Rockyhud
02-11-2011, 03:28 PM
I don't use either brass nock or tied nocking point - just have a d-loop with the gap set to match my nock's width. Seems to work well for me.

gibson 787
02-11-2011, 04:26 PM
If it works for ya Rocky, it's all good!

SonnyThomas
02-11-2011, 04:33 PM
On my hunting bow and one 3D bow I use a single brass nock with cushion button - index release.

On my target and other 3D bow I use tied string nocks - top is nocking point, bottom spaced .040" below arrow nock to prevent nock pinch. Loop is tied outside the of the tied nocks. Thumb and bt releases.

I've used a single top tied nocking point and tied the loop below the arrow nock - spaced as above to prevent nock pinch.

HawgEnvy
02-11-2011, 08:14 PM
I also use the D-loop w nock between. Plenty accurate for me.

as far as a "properly tillered" bow. Could someone elaborate on that? I've always set even tiller. Is there an advantage to a different approach?

Montalaar
02-11-2011, 10:01 PM
Tied nock with Catfish.


I do not set tiller. I tune via different cables and drawboard.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-12-2011, 02:52 AM
I also use the D-loop w nock between. Plenty accurate for me.

as far as a "properly tillered" bow. Could someone elaborate on that? I've always set even tiller. Is there an advantage to a different approach?
Right from the manual
Setting The Tiller
Taking a tiller measurement allows you to check the relative tension
setting of the upper and lower limbs. After setting the draw
weight on your bow, you will need to check the tiller measurement
to make sure that you have adjusted your limbs evenly. On all Martin
compound bows, 0 or even tiller will shoot perfectly. However, the tiller
measurement can vary up to 1/4 closer at the bottom. There is
no set measurement that provides peak performance for every
shooter. To measure your tiller, simply measure from the limb pockets
to the string on both ends of the bow. Some shooters find that different
tiller measurements from "0" work better for them. It will not hurt your
bow in any way if you experiment with tiller.
Note: Your Peep Sight position and your nock point position can
change when you turn one limb bolt. Take detailed measurements
and be sure that your nock and peep are correct each time you
turn your limb bolts.
Measuring

Hutch:cool:

elkslayer4x5
02-12-2011, 08:26 AM
Just the D loop, tied above and below the nocking point. :)

gibson 787
02-12-2011, 12:23 PM
as far as a "properly tillered" bow. Could someone elaborate on that? I've always set even tiller. Is there an advantage to a different approach?

I tiller my bow for this reason. The point at which your loop is tied on is not at the half way point between the axles, it is more towards the upper axle causing the upper limb to exert more force than the lower. To compensate for this, you can ease off on the top limb or wind down the bottom limb, or a combination of both. For your information, when recurve and long bows are built, the bottom limb is always made 'stiffer' than the top limb.

The result is a much smoother draw and better arrow flight. For example, when tuning your bow through paper, you may find you are getting a low tear, it generally means you have to shift your nocking point higher. Sometimes that nocking point rnds up in a ridiculously high position which can actually be dangerous.

This problem can be solved by easing off the top limb and or, adding turns to the bottom limb as described above. I never have to raise my nocking point by more than 1/8" from square due to the fact I 'tiller' my bow before I begin any serious tuning.

I must point out however, that the various ways different archers attach loops, their form, and where they place nocking points etc, means the 'tillering' process will vary from person to person.

Hope this helps

Hutch~n~Son Archery
02-12-2011, 02:11 PM
Thanks gibson 787 info well spoken or should I say typed.



Hutch

copterdoc
02-12-2011, 02:23 PM
....The point at which your loop is tied on is not at the half way point between the axles, it is more towards the upper axle....
Mine are right in the middle, for my Bullet-X risers.

....causing the upper limb to exert more force than the lower. To compensate for this, you can ease off on the top limb or wind down the bottom limb, or a combination of both. For your information, when recurve and long bows are built, the bottom limb is always made 'stiffer' than the top limb.....
This is completely false.

Compound bows are not recurves. You are not pulling the limbs with the string. You are merely turning the cams, which reel in the cables, and the cables compress the limbs.

Making a tiller adjustment doesn't make either limb "stiffer". It merely moves the riser up or down in relation to the limb tips.

You can tell yourself anything you want, all you are doing with a tiller adjustment, is changing your nock point, and the peep is following it.

gibson 787
02-12-2011, 05:07 PM
Compound bows are not recurves. You are not pulling the limbs with the string. You are merely turning the cams, which reel in the cables, and the cables compress the limbs.

Not going to get into any argument with you pal, just relaying what I read on another forum. Tried it several years ago and it worked. Incidently, I don't use a peep.

If I'm steering people down the wrong path, then I apologise, I'm certainly no builder of wheel bows, my background is traditional and have built many self bows over the years.

CarlosII
02-13-2011, 01:58 AM
I also use the D-loop w nock between. Plenty accurate for me.

as far as a "properly tillered" bow. Could someone elaborate on that? I've always set even tiller. Is there an advantage to a different approach?

what he said.

CarlosII
02-14-2011, 03:10 AM
problem i have with d loops is that they always seem to eventually close up leading to a pinch on the nock. thinking about adding brass nocks with the d loop tied above and below the brass nocks.

opinions?

Montalaar
02-14-2011, 03:15 AM
I do not like brass nocks. Tie your own ones with serving yarn or something like that.

Brass nocks are heavy although someone else said just some posts ago that they do not affect speed. Well... I do not need to care about speed at all. Brass nocks can cut into the serving and the string if pressed onto it with sharp edges they may have.

SonnyThomas
02-14-2011, 05:03 AM
problem i have with d loops is that they always seem to eventually close up leading to a pinch on the nock. thinking about adding brass nocks with the d loop tied above and below the brass nocks.

opinions?

Good tight center serving usually eliminates the loop closing up. The center serving is usually the worst offender, even with custom strings. Of course, tied nocks will slip if not tied tight enough or the wrong material is used. I haven't use baler twine, but have used the wife's Button & Carpet thread - Coats & Clark's, extra strong. Wife picked up a bunch at a back yard sale for 25 cents a spool. Really don't care what color because I have a black felt pen handy.

Like Montalaar I tie my nocks. Once I know they holding and I coat them with Super Glue as added insurance. Next, spacing the tied nocks a bit more or spacing loop knots a bit more than necessary will help eliminate the closing up. Here, if the tied nocks or loop doesn't slip, the extra space has not proven to effect accuracy. Of course, I'm not saying going over board with the spacing. I have seen as much as 1/8" play and accuracy is outstanding. Also, the loop pliers I have at the shop gives a wide spacing - kind of too wide, but....

On the other hand, nock pinch has proven to give poor accuracy and if not poor accuracy, the then occasional flier for no apparent reason.

Problems with brass nocks; One, make sure they clamp down evenly. Two, the tiny bit of rubber that sometimes squeezes out may take a bit to wear down. Three, 2 brass nocks fps robbing weight, not much but sometimes enough to make you think you should be aggravated.

RLW
02-14-2011, 08:36 AM
My '09 Martin Bengal has d-loop with a small bit of serving thread tied under top loop to mark where d-loop is, if it were to break........and set even tiller

My '96 Martin Firecat, shot fingers, has double brass nock (together to help prevent slippage).......been a while since I checked, but believe I last had tiller set at approx 1/8" closer on bottom on that one.

Haven't tried anything but even tiller on my Bengal, shooting release, but in the past my finger bows seem to do best for me with bottom tiller 1/8" closer.

bfisher
02-14-2011, 09:10 AM
I used to use two brass nocksets above the arrow nock, but quit this practice several years ago. Being the nitpicker I was I chrongraphed my bow. Then removed a brass nockset and did it again. Each brass nockset reduced the speed of my bow by 4 fps.

Right then and there I started tying a nockset with .021" center serving. It only takes about 6 wraps and tied correctly it can be screwed up or down the center just like a nut on a bolt. Makes micro-tuning a breeze.

I don't use a loop YET, as I use a rope release and have for 30 some years.

Some might say, what's 4 fps? Well, 4 here and 4 there and pretty soon all the 4's add up to 20fps. Attention to details pays dividends.

RLW
02-14-2011, 09:22 AM
......Each brass nockset reduced the speed of my bow by 4 fps........ .
wow 4fps?
I only saw 1-2fps per nock on my bows, but then then I was shooting 69-74lbs and what would be today thought of as aluminum fence posts at 465 - 505grs

SonnyThomas
02-14-2011, 12:21 PM
as far as a "properly tillered" bow. Could someone elaborate on that? I've always set even tiller. Is there an advantage to a different approach?


what he said.

Tiller? Ain't that used on a boat?

By and large today's bows are designed and machined so that tiller is nothing to worry about...unless you messed with the limbs in some manner.

Most double cams (regardless of type) are best set with tiller even. Single cam bows are a bit different, but still even. Here, tiller should be checked from a string ran axle to axle. This due to the distance of true diameter of wheel and cam. Usually the cam side will show a tad off if checked back to the bow string.

Above said, playing with the tiller can improve things, but usually due to the person shooting the bow. On a Hoyt it is something perferred to have the top cam roll over a tad faster than the bow cam. Well, again, this is due to the person. Mostly, my opinion, this is due to the size of the person's hands or that in conjunction with the bow arm. Balance is another area or should I say "feed back?" Okay, some like the bow to "kick" differently.

Now, I would advise to listen to bfisher or Nuts&Bolts. Me, myself and I have never felt the need to mess with the tiller for any problem or want of feed back.

bfisher
02-14-2011, 12:47 PM
I don't think tiller is much to worry about these days. I played around with my Alien Z trying to get it to hold better. I found out that parallel limbs call for different measures. I turned the top limb in two complete turns just to change the tiller about 3/32" whereas with standard vertical limbs it would only take 1/3 turn or so to get the same results. The issue is that the change in tiller is more in the verticle plain than horizontal.

ElkSlayer
02-14-2011, 03:35 PM
tied..or just a D loop @ current all compounds are D loops and recurves tied

jenny21francis
02-15-2011, 12:35 AM
I prefer to tie as it reduces the weight of the strings also last for the long time, though brass nocks are quite easier, and novice than tie.

MLN1963
02-15-2011, 05:01 AM
Right then and there I started tying a nockset with .021" center serving. It only takes about 6 wraps and tied correctly it can be screwed up or down the center just like a nut on a bolt. Makes micro-tuning a breeze.

Can you explain this method of tie? I'm thinking I will employ this method when I finally get rigged up.



I don't use a loop YET, as I use a rope release and have for 30 some years.

Do they still make these releases? What advantage do they have over the new ways? I figure you must be seeing some benefit to using this still or you are a creature of habit. :D

bfisher
02-15-2011, 12:11 PM
Can you explain this method of tie? I'm thinking I will employ this method when I finally get rigged up.




Do they still make these releases? What advantage do they have over the new ways? I figure you must be seeing some benefit to using this still or you are a creature of habit. :D

Pretty simple really. When tuning I use one brass nockset to find the proper height. Once located I measure where it's at. I measure down from the top axle to the bottom of the nockset. Usually I mark it with a sharpie, too. Then take about 15" of serving material and wrap it around that location and tie a granny knot. Wrap around the other side (180 degrees and tie another granny knot. Back and forth till there are a half dozen knots then tie off the last one with a square knot. Cut off the excess leaving about 1/4" tag end and melt this with a lighter (match).

If tied tight enough you can screw it up and down the center serving, but it won't slide on it's own. Clipping a release or rope under the nock creates some upward pressure on the nock so you don't want the tied on nockset to slide.

So why do I use a rope release? Partly creature of habit as that is what I cut my teeth on back in 1975 when I shot a ton of field and target archery. We didn't kow anything about string loops then. Another reason is that I don't care how good you are you'll never tie two string loops the same length. I NEVER have to worry about release jaws abrading the loop or center serving. I've been using the same rope on my release for the better part of ten years and it shows no signs of needing replaced.

There are some videos on the interent showing that because the apex of the string is below the nock that as the bow is shot the arrow nock slides down the string just a bit. Probably about 1/8" or so. I won't argue because I saw the slo-mo video for myself. My arguement is that a bow, being a simple machine, repeats itself time and time again, so ll you do is tune it accordingly and forget it. Don't let simple things like this mess with your mind.

Some say that it takes time to wrap the rope around the string and attach it to the release hook. Yes it does. After a while the rope takes a set and has a bend where it wraps around the serving so is easier to hook up. It takes me about 2 seconds to hook mine up, and I don't even have to look at to see it. It's just a matter of doing it for so long (practice) that like a lot of things it becomes automatic.

I'm toying with the idea of trying a new BT release this spring and can use it with a loop or release rope. I believe it's a True Ball Sweet Spot 3 finger. I have a case of terget panic and really need to get back to a BT release for th summer. I've been using a Cascade model 8 for about ten years and just need a change.

Hope this answers your questions. If you have more then bring 'em on.

Barry