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boothill
03-15-2011, 06:19 PM
So I have had a new Onza 3 for a few months now and shit it thru the chrono today. I'm at 29"dl, 360gr Gold Tips and 64lbs in draw weight. I shot 3 arrows and had 277 twice and a 278fps. Does this sound right or a little on the slow side to you guys. I have replaced the factory Hammerhead strings and put on a set of Korbins Custom strings. The ATA and brace height are exactly what the factory specs say it should be. I did not put the speed nocks on the string under the shrink tube like the Hammerheads had. Do you guys think I should do this? Just thinking this bow should be faster than this is all. Thanks for any help you can offer.

martinbowhunter
03-15-2011, 06:23 PM
So I have had a new Onza 3 for a few months now and shit it thru the chrono today. I'm at 29"dl, 360gr Gold Tips and 64lbs in draw weight. I shot 3 arrows and had 277 twice and a 278fps. Does this sound right or a little on the slow side to you guys. I have replaced the factory Hammerhead strings and put on a set of Korbins Custom strings. The ATA and brace height are exactly what the factory specs say it should be. I did not put the speed nocks on the string under the shrink tube like the Hammerheads had. Do you guys think I should do this? Just thinking this bow should be faster than this is all. Thanks for any help you can offer.

Ohhh ohhhh, you said a bad word :p. Not to sure myself but im sure others who would know will chime in any minute now.

Rockyhud
03-15-2011, 06:30 PM
My bow is a 2008 Firecat - not exactly the same but quite similar with respect to cams and all. Some time ago I took it to my dealer and shot their 360 grain arrow through their chronograph and it consistently shot 290 fps with my DW at 63 lbs and DL at 29" - basically the same as what you're saying your Onza 3 is set to. Based on what your setup is shooting I'd venture to say it's a little slower than what I'd expect. Are you sure about the draw weight and draw length it's set to?

gravedigger
03-15-2011, 06:34 PM
dont know if this helps but.im at a 28.5 dl,382 grn gt arrows,set at 73# and i am shooting 308 fps..

MLN1963
03-15-2011, 07:14 PM
Onza 3 IBO 330-340
29" DL
64# DW
360 grain arrow

Depending on what you have on the string (I used 20 grains) I would expect around 299 fps. So yes, 278 fps seems slow. 20-30 fps off the pace is pretty far off IMO. Maybe the lighting wasn't good for the chrono and it was reading slow?

http://www.backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/

boothill
03-16-2011, 04:08 AM
When the bow was new thru the dealer chrono and exact same arrow it was mid 270's as well. I'd heard that the dealers chrono was off so didn't worry about it that much. Shot it thru another dealers unit yesterday in full daylight so now it makes me wonder. I'm not a total speed freak just wish it was closer to what it should be is all. I shot a 310gr arrow thru it and it was only 298 I believe. I had a 2008 Firecat that shot in the 280's with the exact same arrow and setup with a Ripcord and G5 peep. I shot a Bowtech Invasion yesterday at 60lbs that shot my arrow 303fps.

MLN1963
03-16-2011, 04:52 AM
If putting the speed buttons on don't bring you much closer to the advertised speed a call to Martin is in order. I know people say don't worry about it but I am of the mind that if a manufacture says its product should attain a certain performance factor then I expect that.

My brother and all his buddies are in the Bowtech Brigade and their bows are on the money. I am going to get a Martin twin cam bow and if it isn't close to the 335-345 fps that is advertised I will not be happy.

archerx7
03-16-2011, 05:05 AM
My Onza3 @ 28.5/60.5 shoots 309 with a 305gr arrow. Add 15 for the DL and thats 324. Mine still has the long center serving from the factory which will nock off about 5fps which puts it at 329, figure in another 5fps for the loop and fletcher peep puts it at 334. The factory string is 22 strands Trophy which is appox. 15gr heavier than a 24 strand 452X string, so a change in strings should bring it very close to 337-339.

You may want to check the cam timing. The speed nocks themselves can be worth 5-10 fps, you may want to put those on your new string.

bcriner
03-16-2011, 05:31 AM
Everyone sets bows up different. From my experience with Martin over the last 6 years, I personally take the lowest rating they claim and substract 5fps from that, and that is what I expect to achieve after factoring in the reductions for draw, weight, etc.

For example, my '08 AlienX was rated 330fps. With my setup and reductions it calculates out to 325fps. My 2010 Shadowcat was rated 315-320fps. My setup came in at 311fps. Their rating is always done based on an empty string with nothing on it. I figure this is where my 5fps below rating comes from when I add a peep and loop.

Given all of this, it sounds like you are still way low. I agree to check the timing as well.

MLN1963
03-16-2011, 06:36 AM
Mine still has the long center serving from the factory which will nock off about 5fps which puts it at 329, figure in another 5fps for the loop and fletcher peep puts it at 334. The factory string is 22 strands Trophy which is appox. 15gr heavier than a 24 strand 452X string, so a change in strings should bring it very close to 337-339.



Martin knows what strings they are using and the configuration of the serving. It wasn't like this was a bow that was already out and they added a Hammer Head string to it. I guess I just don't understand telling you buy this bow because we are this fast, then you get it and find out you aren't getting what they say.

gstudt
03-16-2011, 07:04 AM
Mine is 27 3/4 draw 65 lbs with 325 arrow going 301 fps.

for detailed info on how to set the cams to get more out of them you might want to review the http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=626601 thread at AT.

The concepts are pretty much the same for the Onza as well.

good luck

mudpig
03-16-2011, 08:30 AM
Boot, listen to what gstudt has to say and read the link he posted. It is very long, but it has some pictures in it and a couple of other threads there too. He got me all squared away on my new Silencer. The Silencer has the same cams as your bow and this info will really help. My bow is 60# 29"DL and shooting 385gr arrows. I started out shooting about 280fps and after tuning my bow as stated in the above post I'm now shooting 303fps. Just for fun I tried to find an IBO weight arrow (315gr), closest I could come up with was 319gr. It ran thru the chrony at 330 the first shot and 325 for 5 shots after that. Read the linked thread and watch the speed go up ;)

kylecurtis04
03-16-2011, 09:32 AM
Boot, listen to what gstudt has to say and read the link he posted. It is very long, but it has some pictures in it and a couple of other threads there too. He got me all squared away on my new Silencer. The Silencer has the same cams as your bow and this info will really help. My bow is 60# 29"DL and shooting 385gr arrows. I started out shooting about 280fps and after tuning my bow as stated in the above post I'm now shooting 303fps. Just for fun I tried to find an IBO weight arrow (315gr), closest I could come up with was 319gr. It ran thru the chrony at 330 the first shot and 325 for 5 shots after that. Read the linked thread and watch the speed go up ;)

X2. He knows what he's talking about :)

boothill
03-16-2011, 10:12 AM
X2. He knows what he's talking about :)

Thanks guys for your help on this deal. I called my dealer over lunch today and talked to him about it as well. Will have to do some more tuning on it and see what happens. The bow shoots great but I'm like everyone else it should shoot what they say it does or real close to it. All I've got on the string is a D-loop and a 3/16 G5 peep no string silencers or anything to weigh it down.

Ehunter
03-16-2011, 11:03 AM
I gotta agree, Gary (gstudt) knows his Martin bows. Set up my old '09 Firecat the way he recommened, and gained 26fps over the factory settings. Was hitting 318-319 fps @ 28.5 in. draw, 68# and a 368 gr. arrow. Plan tweaking my new FC, and the Silencer I have coming the same way. I figure, if a guy has his pic in the companies catalog, he probably has a good idea what he's talking about. lol

MLN1963
03-16-2011, 12:15 PM
I gotta agree, Gary (gstudt) knows his Martin bows. Set up my old '09 Firecat the way he recommened, and gained 26fps over the factory settings. Was hitting 318-319 fps @ 28.5 in. draw, 68# and a 368 gr. arrow. Plan tweaking my new FC, and the Silencer I have coming the same way. I figure, if a guy has his pic in the companies catalog, he probably has a good idea what he's talking about. lol

Keep us informed on how it goes. I'll be following along for sure.

boothill
03-16-2011, 12:46 PM
I'm sure hoping to get the speed up on it. I know my friend here that is a Bowtech dealer was sure giving me a hard time about it yesterday. Although he did admit it had a smoother draw at 64lbs than his Destroyer does at 60lbs. Will let you guys know how it turns out. Will probably be this weekend before I get on it.

Rockyhud
03-16-2011, 03:37 PM
On the topic of speed nocks that archerx7 mentioned, one thing you might want to consider is using a finger shooter product called No-Glove in place of the brass speed nocks. A while back I was browsing the Strother bow site and discovered they used No-Glove shooting aids instead of speed nocks. The reason being is they weigh about the same but their being rubber essentially provides the benefit of some string dampening while getting the little bit of speed boost that brass speed nocks can provide. I did this on my bow and it works. I used the longer piece that has two finger indents on the string. I used the shorter pieces to dampen my Limb Driver activation line - worked well there too.

The only downside to these is you have to remove the string and slide them down where they need to be instead of crimping them on like brass nocks. If you decide to use them I found a fairly easy way to get them over the end loop and down the string into position. Get a medium sized paper clip, straighten out one end, poke the straight end through the No-Glove, letting the other hooked end wrap back over the end of the No-Glove. Use a pair of pliers to grab the paper clip to pull the No-Glove to where you want it. Also, waxing the string good beforehand will help too.

boothill
03-16-2011, 06:41 PM
After spending the evening reading the other 9 page post I've come to the conclusion there are some very intelligent folks on here. My bow showed a 29" draw length and 70lb max draw weight on the tag. The modules are in #4 which the Onza says is 27.5" - 30.5" so that should be 29". The draw stop is about centered in the slot.

33 1/8" ATA
7 3/8" brace
1" D-Loop
string to pin on top cam is 7/64
string to pin on bottom cam is 3/32

So my question to you smarter thanme guys is the fact the gap is smaller than 1/8" OK? I'm thinking about shortening the D-Loop, moving the module to #5 then adjusting the draw stop to adjust the letoff amount. What do you think guys? I don't have a press here at my house so was looking for a plan of attack when I get to one this weekend. Thanks so much

Rockyhud
03-16-2011, 08:48 PM
One of the many nice features of Martin bows is you do not need a bow press to do what you're talking about doing - changing draw length module position and such. You simply removed the screws holding the modules against the cams, rotate to the position desired and reinstall the screws. Then you adjust the draw stop as needed for the new module position. NOTE: Be certain you have secured both modules in the same location, meaning ensure the screws are in the same numbered holes. Otherwise you have one module set for a different draw length than the other and you will have problems.

You're d-loop sounds like it's a little long. I'd recommend it be just long enough behind the arrow nock that you can get you release into the loop and have just a little room between but no more. This will potentially help get you a little longer effective draw length.

If you're wanting to tackle tuning your cams to get the string to anchor pin distances set for best performance you can still do that without a press (unscrewing limb bolts to reduce limb tension) but it is easier and faster with one. The one I have is called the Bow Master and it works quite well. It's basically a small mechanism with a bolt that screws into a metal block to push against a steel cable that has t-bars that you position on the limb forks. As you hand tighten the bolt it draws the limbs inward, taking the tension off the string and cables, allowing you to remove them, twist or untwist as needed then reinstall. This press is so small and light weight it can be taken into the field when you're hunting in case you need to do field repairs. It also is reasonably priced - about $50 or so.

boothill
03-17-2011, 05:12 AM
I can change modules and stuff like that on my own easy enough. But when doing cable work I'd rather put it in a press. So much easier than trying to remember how many turns I've put on a limb bolt. Seriously though I was hoping the pin gaps would of been a little more different. How much does 1/16" gap difference or less make on your speed? So do you guys think I should twist the cables any looking at those measurments? I can get some pictures at lunch and post up if that might help.

archerx7
03-17-2011, 05:25 AM
The first thing to do is to make sure the string and cables are set to the correct factory lengths, then get the cams synch'd so they are both rolling over at the same time. Let the brace and A2A fall where they may, they are approx. numbers and should just be used as a guideline.

boothill
03-17-2011, 10:44 AM
So here are pictures of cams and pin gaps. It looked like the cams were in sync just looking at them myself while drawing.

Rockyhud
03-17-2011, 03:57 PM
I'm presuming the top photo is your top cam, bottom photo your bottom cam. That said, it appears your cams are not quite synced as there's noticeably more gap between the string and anchor pin on that cam than there is on the bottom. Also, from what I remember reading in the AT thread on CAT cam tuning, the gap for both should be in the range or 0.1" or even a little less. Yours appear to definitely have more gap than that.

Also a correction to what I posted earlier about how to get the No-Glove finger shooting aids on the string. I recalled later that I used the straightened paper clip to hook onto the string loop, then using pliers, carefully squeeze the loop so the hole looks like a thin slit, then push the straight portion of the wire through the hole down the center of the No-Glove. Once the wire is through grab it with pliers and gently pull the string through the No-Glove. Once the loop is through you can push the No-Glove down where you want it. Once in position it will stay put - it won't move on you.

Ehunter
03-17-2011, 04:34 PM
Pretty hard to tell if the cams are in sync when drawing the bow yourself. Better to have someone else look at it while you draw. Another option for doing it alone is to hook the string over a WELL mounted, heavy-duty "J" hook or something similar high on a wall, and pull the bow downward to the full draw position, watching the cam timing. Marks in the exact same place on each cam make this much easier also. Use a caliper if you have one, and place a mark the same distance in (about 1/2 inch) from the end of each cam. That makes it alot easier to see if the string is hitting both marks at the exact same time.

bowgramp59
03-18-2011, 11:27 AM
when the manufactuers check a bow for speed , they use a naked string, a naked arrow no fletching, and they shoot it with a machine . and that is 70#s @ 30" draw,350 grn arrow. theres no way that a 60# bow is going to get anywhere close to the ibo speed, especially with all the stuff on the strings and a fletched arrow. i had a guy at a bass pro shop the other day tell me that he was getting 405 fps out of one of his bows , i didn't tell him that he was full of it, but i was thinking it.i have an onza 3 i don't know how fast it is ,not as fast as my alien xs or my alien nemesis, but speed dosen't matter that much to me. at 25 yards the broadhead is just under the skin of a deer before he has time to jump the string, thats good enough for me.

MLN1963
03-19-2011, 07:18 AM
BowGramp

I'm not sure if you were directing that at me or not. I understand how they do it. As far as I can tell the average archer isn't 6'3" and shooting 70 pounds, 30" draw length with a bare string. Don't all strings have serving and nocks? they do it with an unrealistic set-up is pretty much false advertising. In my opinion here should be a realistic standard that ALL companies must adhere to.

bfisher
03-19-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm sure you must have read this elsewhere, but there is a standard. It is 70#, 30" draw, and 350 gr. arrow. But then the ATA allows for variances of up to 3/4" long on the draw length, up to 73# for the draw weight. As for anything on the string, it probably is bare, not having any serving or anything. The chronograph would be as close to the bow as possible to read the highest speed. I never saw it done so don't know.

Here's one fallacy I often read. Testing is done with a bare shaft weighing 350 gr. That's not always true. A 350 gr arrow weighs 350 gr whether it's fletched or not. And fletching will not slow a bow down within a foot or two from the bow. So maybe they use a bare shaft or maybe they don't. Fact remains, it's a 350 gr arrow. Period.

That being said, such deviations that are allowed should not be permitted. 3 extra pounds of draw weight will amount to approx. 6 to 8 fps in increased speed. 3/4" in extra draw length will net about 8-9 fps. Just these alone can inflate IBO ratings by 15 fps or a little more so it's not too hard to figure why people like ourselves have a hard time achieving anything close to those ratings.

I imagine most all manufacturers "cheat" the system as much as they can as it all comes down to competition in the speed game these days. So really, it doesn't make a hill of beans difference what the IBO rating is. Just use the advertising as another guideline when comparing bows. Then if you are really interested in figuring what your speed should be in the real world start off with a figure 15 fps lower than advertised and calculate downwards.

hockingcounty
03-22-2011, 07:28 PM
I think that sounds a little slow,my alien x @ 27" dl and 63 lbs with a 378 grn arrow shoots 280fps with a peep and a kisser and d loop, my nemesis shoots 270 at the same specs.

boothill
03-26-2011, 06:45 PM
So we did some work on the Onza today. Moved the modules to the #5 position from #4 and adjusted the draw stop some. The gap on the cable to anchor pin is now approx. 1/8" top and bottom. Installed nock sets both top and bottom close to where they were at on the factory strings. Now the #5 holes should be 29.5" at 61lbs and a 360gr arrow it is at 288 - 289fps. Picked up right at 10fps today. Should we try and get the gaps a little closer is my question I guess?

leeindy
03-26-2011, 08:46 PM
how about these cams

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/leeindy/bows/bow3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/leeindy/bows/bow2.jpg

bfisher
03-27-2011, 06:32 AM
how about these cams

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/leeindy/bows/bow3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/leeindy/bows/bow2.jpg

Lee, you need to back off a couple inches and get better focus. We need a view from the module side of the cam. And if you're still working on your noise problem then post the pics on your own thread, please. It gets confusing when talking about two different issues on the same thread.

boothill
03-27-2011, 06:33 AM
Leeindy show these guys the other side of the cams. The gaps we are talking about is on the module side of your cam. BTW I love the cloaked cams on that bow.

archerx7
03-27-2011, 06:46 AM
To determine if the cams are correctly timed, pictures of the cams from the mod side are needed at full draw.

Nemesis03
04-09-2011, 02:33 PM
Boot, listen to what gstudt has to say and read the link he posted. It is very long, but it has some pictures in it and a couple of other threads there too. He got me all squared away on my new Silencer. The Silencer has the same cams as your bow and this info will really help. My bow is 60# 29"DL and shooting 385gr arrows. I started out shooting about 280fps and after tuning my bow as stated in the above post I'm now shooting 303fps. Just for fun I tried to find an IBO weight arrow (315gr), closest I could come up with was 319gr. It ran thru the chrony at 330 the first shot and 325 for 5 shots after that. Read the linked thread and watch the speed go up ;)

I have a Silencer on the way and have been reading through these tuning threads. When I was seeking advice for my Aliens I was told anything other than perfect equal sync. of bothe cams will produce a much louder bow with way more hand shock pertaining to the Hybrix cams. Now on the silencer it's basicly the same system so I'm confused on how it wouldn't be the same result. Your bow is much faster but is it louder w/more shock? Maybe I need more of an explanation or maybe I'm missunderstanding the tuning method. Someone enlighten me please.