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Broken Arrow
04-16-2011, 02:24 PM
3rd post in 3 days...lots of questions for the newbie. My draw length's set at 30 which was calculated using the wingspan/2.5...I'm 6'0" tall but have always seemed to have longish arms. Question, just got back from the range and am having trouble with string slap, any connection between that and too long a draw length. I shoot with a D loop, '07 Bengal, Scott barrel release.

copterdoc
04-16-2011, 02:29 PM
The d-loop has nothing to do with DL. It only effects the release length.

However, I don't know anybody shorter than 6' 2", that has a 30" DL.

At 6' tall, your DL should be between 28" and 29". Unless you really have monkey arms, or freakishly wide shoulders.

rock
04-16-2011, 03:46 PM
im 6' and have a 30" draw but i have long arms and broad shoulders.. the loop changes your anchor point. if your new you might be holding the bow wrong ... if you could put a picture up at full draw it would be easier to help.

SonnyThomas
04-16-2011, 04:09 PM
To answer your question; Yes, the bow having too long a draw can result in string slap.

I wanted much to agree with copterdoc, but his first sentence threw me. However, I do agree with his claim of height and draw length.

The formula "WS / 2.5 = DL" has never impressed me as being the choice to use. Figure it and you will find it runs off as WS shortens and lengthens.

The formula "WS - 15 / 2 = DL" remains consistent throughout the lengths found.
Try this; 72 - 15 / 2 = 28 1/2". This for a 6 foot man. 6'2" = 74" - 15 / 2 = 29.5"

Same WS of 72 / 2.5 - 28.8" Same 6'2" = 74 / 2.5 = 29.6". This formula shows draw length .300" longer than other formula and then gets shorter, now .100" with 2 inches of more WS.

Both formulas though have approx. +/- 1/2" for error. Several things come into play. Type of release, size of hands, length of fingers, facial features and so on. And some bows run long for draw length (somehow never short).

Now for the copterdoc's first sentence; "The d-loop has nothing to do with DL. It only effects the release length." Find and look at the draw length diagram for a bow. Normally, the draw length is the apex of the string at full draw to the depth of the grip plus 1 3/4". Actual draw length, apex of the string at full draw to the depth of the grip is just that, taken from the apex of the string where you hook your release or fingers. Add a loop (extention to hook release) and you have effectively added the loop length to the draw length of the bow. Now, to maintain your perfect anchor point you have to change something, release length or draw length of the bow. For me, using a index release, I have my bow set to 29", release shortened as much as possible and still be able to hook up. Using a thumb or back tension release with a loop, 5/8" long, I have my target bows set to 28" of draw.
No, a loop doesn't not effect the bow's true draw length nor does it effect your draw length, but yes, it does effect fit of the bow to you. Again, something has to change. Do you change your perfect anchor point? I think not. So, you shorten the length of your release aid (if possible) or you shorten the draw length of the bow.

Weird, but true; Plush, a real good indoor shooter, stands a good 6 foot, three inches tall. His draw length is 30", his, not the bow's. He dislikes anything touching his face and uses a super long loop. The draw of length of his bow? 27". Who helped set him up? A Senior Pro Free Style shooter who is a former Triple Crown winner and who has won Vegas 3 times, the last being just this year.

copterdoc
04-16-2011, 07:33 PM
A one armed man, still has a draw length.

DL is determined by where the arrow nock intersects the face.

It has nothing to do with the arm attached to the release. That is effected entirely by the length of the release, and the length of the loop.

The arrow nock is supposed to be directly below the eye at full draw. Adding, or removing a D-loop, will never change where the arrow nock is in relation to the archer's face.

HawgEnvy
04-17-2011, 07:06 AM
I'm going to look at this from a somewhat different perspective. Keep in mind,this is what worked for ME. It may or may not work for someone else,but I don't see why it wouldn't.

I'm 5'9",w long-ish arms. I've never measured my WS,though. I had an '04 Cougar 3 that liked to bite. Braceheight was 6 3/4"(?. Something close,anyway). I couldn't get the DL adjusted to a comfortable setting and still have no string slap. I finally decided on shortening the DL to 28" vs my normal 28.5". It forced a bend in my bow arm,but didn't solve it entirely. I added a sts and that was the end of the string slap

SonnyThomas
04-17-2011, 01:45 PM
One also has to keep in mind proper grip. With the proper grip and a slight bend of the elbow (pointing out and down - say 45 degrees) the forearm is much removed from the line of travel of the string. Proper everything and string slap is not a issue except through wearing heavy clothing. We've put pictures of the what is deemed a proper grip. The line off the knuckles of the hand and fingers are somewhat positioned as the the bent elbow, pointing down and out similar to the above 45 degrees.

I've shot bows with 5 1/2" brace heights and not had a problem. Other, proper grip and using a straight arm the forearm is still removed from the travel of the string - maybe close, but a lot of us survived. Personally, I like a brace height of 6 to 6 1/2". My Ole War Horse has a 6 3/8" bh and I've shot that bow untold thousands of times.

alex
04-18-2011, 10:22 AM
3rd post in 3 days...lots of questions for the newbie. My draw length's set at 30 which was calculated using the wingspan/2.5...I'm 6'0" tall but have always seemed to have longish arms. Question, just got back from the range and am having trouble with string slap, any connection between that and too long a draw length. I shoot with a D loop, '07 Bengal, Scott barrel release.

With all my respect to the great archery knowledge of both Sonny and Copterdoc, what i'd do is to shorten the DL with at least half an inch and add a string stopper (STS). This will solve your problem, Broken Arrow and may be will improve your shooting.

RLW
04-18-2011, 12:09 PM
Something I don't see mentioned and a thing which a buddy of mine does now, (& I use to do) is the shooting stance.
He stands with his bow arm, shoulders and feet all in a straight line to the target, having to turn his head almost 90 degrees looking right down his shoulder/arm. Once in a while even lines up with his back foot behind him a bit and really smacks his arm a good one then.
It's causing him to pull tight right across his chest and arm resulting in string catching a sleeve and/or trying to peel hide off his arm.

When I get him to move his back foot forward a half step, turning his body inward toward bow at roughly 45 degree into the bow to open up the shot, string slap is gone.

I still catch myself doing this now and then on a off-camber or sidehill shot at 3D target and I'll whack my arm or sleeve, throwing me off a bit.

Getting to correct 45 degree stance and opening the shot up a bit really helped me reduce string slap when wearing heavier clothes during late season hunts.......and helped my overall accuracy.

I have noticed before when turning in toward the target, that is my draw length is borderline long, it will show up here. going about 1/2" shorter (like I could probably do now myself) cleared that up

SonnyThomas
04-18-2011, 12:36 PM
It's that we don't forget mentioning things. It's just we say it or tell it so many times we get lost in transit. This should be the next to last reply of the Post. LD Falks is indeed a archer coach most notable.

http://asaforum.com/index.php?topic=6578.msg43065#msg43065

cyclepath
04-18-2011, 04:28 PM
The draw length that is given by wingspan is good if you are shooting a recurve or a longbow. You will loose at least 1/2 to 1" dl shooting a compound. My draw length is 29 1/2 shooting my longbow but my compound is set at 28 1/2".

Hutch~n~Son Archery
04-18-2011, 05:18 PM
Here is a link try setting it up this way.http://www.tboneoutdoors.com/video/tech_tips/draw_length_myths

Hutch:cool:

copterdoc
04-19-2011, 05:10 AM
Here is a link try setting it up this way.http://www.tboneoutdoors.com/video/tech_tips/draw_length_myths

Hutch:cool:
Thanks Hutch.

I can't believe how hard it is, for some people to wrap their minds around this concept.

SonnyThomas
04-19-2011, 08:56 AM
So I spent near half an hour downloading the video. Dial up for way out in the country and down in the holler.

I saw or heard nothing for setting the initial draw length of the bow. And of course there was nothing mentioned of the bow's draw length matching the draw length of the shooter. As noted in this thread, you may have a 29" draw, but you, the equipment used and the bow itself may have the bow's draw length shortened to, say 28".

I saw the shooter set anchor, not change for what clearly was already predetermined. A good anchor point is solid and repeatable so it becomes second nature. And this whether a index release, hinge or thumb release. BUT then, the difference between a index release and the upside down releases will have you anchor differently and in a different spot.

Spoke of was releases and that being different that would effect the over all draw length - basically what has already been mentioned in this thread.

However, I would dis-claim the draw length "fact" of "corner of the mouth to the tip of the nose." Probably every archery coach I know and know of would dis-claim such.

Each person is different...right up to facial features and nose length and throw in the different angles from the shortest ata bows to the longest ata bows of today. Though I can live without this one person he is one of the finer shots in our county - probably shot more 5 spot 300s than anyone in our county and he is a top 3D shooter. Regardless of a index release, back tension or thumb release, his nose is so short there is virtually no way he can touch his nose to the string and maintain a good solid anchor and keep his draw elbow as it should, in line with the power stroke of the bow string. No, he does not use a kisser button.

The concept of the arrow nock being directly below the shooter's eye has been mostly taken from one the finest archers known, Randy Ulmer. Several pictures exist showing him, his anchor with a index release and the virtual line through the center of his eye down through the arrow nock. In his original article Randy noted; "some people use the tip of their nose" and that's all he wrote of it, but it was picked up on and expanded by others.

copterdoc
04-19-2011, 09:38 AM
It's a problem, when people think they can lengthen their bow's draw length setting, by finding a release short enough that they can draw the string all the way past their ear.

There is a device that allows the release to be attached to the shooter's elbow.

I'm anxious to see all the dismembered ears flying downrange, the Saturday before the deer opener.

That fact is, that DL DOES involve the point that the arrow nock is positioned in relation to the shooter's face. The d-loop and release length have absolutely nothing to do with that relationship.

That said, I give up.

cyclepath
04-19-2011, 09:56 AM
3rd post in 3 days...lots of questions for the newbie. My draw length's set at 30 which was calculated using the wingspan/2.5...I'm 6'0" tall but have always seemed to have longish arms. Question, just got back from the range and am having trouble with string slap, any connection between that and too long a draw length. I shoot with a D loop, '07 Bengal, Scott barrel release.

I'm sorry about how this has gotten out of hand. Kinda like asking this question on AT. Everyone wants to help for sure but with all the input I'm sure you are very confused or ready to say forget it. I think the best way to get to where you want to be is to just go to a pro shop that you trust and have them help you set the bow up for you. Ask them to explain what they are doing so that you have a clear understanding of it and from there you will know what to do from then on. Hope this helps.

Broken Arrow
05-03-2011, 08:35 AM
Best advice yet...on my way to shop this afternoon.