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rock
05-15-2011, 06:52 AM
anyone recieve a bow with the rod to long. got my silencer moved the rod all the way forward still help the brace at 7.438" ata was at 33.250 right from the factory peak weight was 65# on 70# limbs. the bow chronied at 266 with a 430 grain arrow.im not happy with the way this bow was recieved so out of wack. ended up cutting the rod down putting the bow back in spec going to go to the bow shop and see what the fruits of my labor gives me throught the chrono this week ok im done with my rant but i really like the bow

Simple Life
05-15-2011, 07:29 AM
anyone recieve a bow with the rod to long. got my silencer moved the rod all the way forward still help the brace at 7.438" ata was at 33.250 right from the factory peak weight was 65# on 70# limbs. the bow chronied at 266 with a 430 grain arrow.im not happy with the way this bow was recieved so out of wack. ended up cutting the rod down putting the bow back in spec going to go to the bow shop and see what the fruits of my labor gives me throught the chrono this week ok im done with my rant but i really like the bow

If you want to rant ,you will have to get in line:D

rock
05-15-2011, 07:34 AM
done with the rant.got a cable rod and a sting stop comeing this week

SonnyThomas
05-15-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm afraid to look.....

Destroyer
05-15-2011, 03:06 PM
Not much of a rant really. :(

rock
05-15-2011, 03:10 PM
affraid of what sonny ive been around bows for 26 years took it to the shop i got it from they said wow that rod is way to long we can send it back to martin..

bfisher
05-15-2011, 06:30 PM
affraid of what sonny ive been around bows for 26 years took it to the shop i got it from they said wow that rod is way to long we can send it back to martin..

My only question would be why the bow left the shop that way in the first place. Draw weight low, brace height almost 1/2" high. Why wasn't it checked before you picked it up? These two things are simple to check and adjust.

SonnyThomas
05-15-2011, 06:57 PM
affraid of what sonny ive been around bows for 26 years took it to the shop i got it from they said wow that rod is way to long we can send it back to martin..

Well, if I look and find something wrong..... It's just a plain fact Martin does not have a good inspection plan going. Why send a bow out only to hold up the shooter for repairs or have the bow shipped back for repairs? That's just wrong.

For those who haven't worked in a machine shop, there must be a dozen or more Quality Control programs at hand in any direction you turn. We had a check off sheet for everything and I mean everything - paint, dimensions, machining sizes and finishes and every part went through the inspection room for True Position checks. Any parts outsourced to another company and that company had to have our Quality Control program in place.

rock
05-15-2011, 07:23 PM
this bow was right out of the box right in front of me. good bow shops are few and far between this is what drove me to work on my own bows..sonny i use to fix RF welders for a tent company and thier qc dept would check 10 percent of outsourced goods 90 percent unchecked leaves a lot of room for error

Destroyer
05-15-2011, 07:30 PM
Why send a bow out only to hold up the shooter for repairs or have the bow shipped back for repairs? That's just wrong.

Agree but it is common practice these days. Cover it with a warranty and that's it. QC isn't what it use to be. Not sure if metrology labs still exist either.

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 05:05 AM
Here is the thing. I almost said something to Mr. Martin when I had him on the phone but refrained.

Martin could easily track down who is responsible for subpar bows. The assembly technicians name is right on the limb. The Inspector who ran the quality control checklist is on a tag on the bow. Right there you know exactly who put together and inspected EVERY bow. Reprimands and admonishments are great ways to get some someone's attention.

Not once in several calls (or emails) to customer service or the big man did anyone ask for: a serial number, assembler or inspector of the bow. I would think there would be some sort of tracking system in place? Don't get me wrong, they are more than willing to fix it by replacing parts but that is only part of the problem. You must get to the root of the problem otherwise you are just wasting money and manpower. You don't want to keep burying cat $h!t in your flower beds. You want to bury the offending cat in your flower bed! Martin has been in business for 60+ years and they know that.

bfisher
05-16-2011, 05:27 AM
I see your point. The only thing I would point out is that they don't need the name of the QC inspectors. In my converstaion with Joel about a month ago with issues with my Nemisis he told me that there are essentially only two QC inspectors so it would be the same for every bow. He also said that although they are the final inspectors there are other inspections along the assembly line, maybe a half dozen.

I agree with everybody here that warranty service is superb, but with all the checks and final inspection you would think some of the issues consumers are having would be addressed by that inspection and resulting adjustments prior to shipment. Such things as string/cable lengths and/or a2a/brace height measurements.

As for things like string/cable wear, limb problems and similar things it would have to be addressed at the design table and possible machining changes to round off sharp edges on cams/modules and such. This is not something QC inspectors are going to know about or be able to see.

As for the TRG? No doubt it's a new concept and either will be refined or maybe go the way of the CCS, which seems to be being replaced. Only time will tell.

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 05:34 AM
As usual you are right on.

For my bow it wouldn't have helped much. For others here it would, say the rod on your Onza 3 was too long to be working correctly. Many eyes should have seen that.

cyclepath
05-16-2011, 07:10 AM
As usual you are right on.

For my bow it wouldn't have helped much. For others here it would, say the rod on your Onza 3 was too long to be working correctly. Many eyes should have seen that.

I don't see how a longer rod would not work correctly on a bow.

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 07:30 AM
On the Onza the TRG rod is captured at the front, so too long of a rod pushes the TRG too far back. The other bows you can slide the rod for and aft without problems.

mudpig
05-16-2011, 07:38 AM
On the Onza the TRG rod is captured at the front, so too long of a rod pushes the TRG too far back. The other bows you can slide the rod for and aft without problems.

Just to put a little burr in your last statement MLN....out of my two Silencers....My first one (60#) had the open hole you talk about, but my second Silencer purchased three months later (70#) has the captured hole. ;)

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 07:42 AM
I guess Martin can't make up their mind! :mad:

Thanks for the burr under my saddle Mudpig! :o

mudpig
05-16-2011, 07:46 AM
Thanks for the burr under my saddle Mudpig! :o

Hey what are archery buddies for if not for adding burrs :p

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 07:50 AM
Yep! :cool:

cyclepath
05-16-2011, 07:52 AM
On the Onza the TRG rod is captured at the front, so too long of a rod pushes the TRG too far back. The other bows you can slide the rod for and aft without problems.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was thinking cable slide :confused:

wscywabbit
05-16-2011, 08:18 AM
:confused: are some people's bows different than others? My Onza, and the Firecat I almost bought both had a channel for the rod to slide in, locked by 2 set screws... matter a fact, my trg was too far forward when I got it, and I moved it back about 1/4" so that my cables weren't touching the end of the trg at rest. Moving the rod caused my cable rod to hang about 1/16" out the back of the riser.

bfisher
05-16-2011, 10:04 AM
:confused: are some people's bows different than others? My Onza, and the Firecat I almost bought both had a channel for the rod to slide in, locked by 2 set screws... matter a fact, my trg was too far forward when I got it, and I moved it back about 1/4" so that my cables weren't touching the end of the trg at rest. Moving the rod caused my cable rod to hang about 1/16" out the back of the riser.

Maybe you need to call and tell somebody. They would probably send you a new one with a longer rod. That bracket (channel) you're referring to is probably held in the slot that would have had the CCS...just a guess on my part.

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 10:37 AM
:confused: are some people's bows different than others? My Onza, and the Firecat I almost bought both had a channel for the rod to slide in, locked by 2 set screws... matter a fact, my trg was too far forward when I got it, and I moved it back about 1/4" so that my cables weren't touching the end of the trg at rest. Moving the rod caused my cable rod to hang about 1/16" out the back of the riser.

Can you post pictures? I'm not following you.

wscywabbit
05-16-2011, 10:43 AM
Maybe you need to call and tell somebody. They would probably send you a new one with a longer rod. That bracket (channel) you're referring to is probably held in the slot that would have had the CCS...just a guess on my part.

I'm good B, I was just wondering if the 2011 risers changed at some point, or if some models don't have the channel or slot for the cable rod go all the way through the riser front to back.

I was stating my experience because I was able to move the rod to accomodate setup, and even if it had been longer, it wouldn't have been a big issue because it can't "bottom out".

The only reason I even moved my trg rod back was so that the cables wouldn't come back and "slap" the end of the trg housing at release. The SOS can be adjusted separately from the trg, so I moved it forward up to the string, to make up for moving the trg back towards the riser.

wscywabbit
05-16-2011, 10:44 AM
Can you post pictures? I'm not following you.

I can when I get home later :D

bfisher
05-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Just forget what I said about the channel for the CCS. I forgot that the Onza is new and similar to the Alien Nemisis so probably just has a drilled hole on the riser. I'm glad I caught my mistake before somebody straightened me out on it.

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 10:52 AM
I'm good B, I was just wondering if the 2011 risers changed at some point, or if some models don't have the channel or slot for the cable rod go all the way through the riser front to back.

I was stating my experience because I was able to move the rod to accomodate setup, and even if it had been longer, it wouldn't have been a big issue because it can't "bottom out".

The only reason I even moved my trg rod back was so that the cables wouldn't come back and "slap" the end of the trg housing at release. The SOS can be adjusted separately from the trg, so I moved it forward up to the string, to make up for moving the trg back towards the riser.


Can you post pictures? I'm not following you.

Now I get it. You are calling back front and front back. Moving the rod forward away from the string is to the front of the bow.

bfisher
05-16-2011, 10:59 AM
Now I get it. You are calling back front and front back. Moving the rod forward away from the string is to the front of the bow.

Greg,

I guess I misunderstood, too, but technically he's correct. The back of the bow is that part facing the target as we stand at full draw. This is a throwback from the old recurve days. Somewhere over the years we have just become accustomed to the back being called the front. At least that's what I thik he's saying. Isn't our terminology confusing at times?

wscywabbit
05-16-2011, 11:20 AM
:o my bad guys, didn't mean to confuse you, or me, or anyone else lol

So to clarify, I was talking of moving the rod back AWAY from the string... I do remember reading somewhere that the back is the front and vise versa... but it just seems to me that all the time spent holding a bow and shooting it, the front would be facing you... lol

anyways, glad we straightened that out... but for the OP, I suppose that his cable rod doesn't go all the way through the riser so having it too long would be an issue. (WHEW, this is work) ;)

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 12:29 PM
Greg,

I guess I misunderstood, too, but technically he's correct. The back of the bow is that part facing the target as we stand at full draw. This is a throwback from the old recurve days. Somewhere over the years we have just become accustomed to the back being called the front. At least that's what I think he's saying. Isn't our terminology confusing at times?

That is just plain weird, bass ackwards actually. Everything I ever worked on the front is the part going the direction you are going: Front of a car, airplane, motorcycle, boat, front sight of a gun and so on. You recurve shooters are an odd lot!

I'm sticking with what I know or the next thing you know I will be holding my pistol wrong and shoot myself!

bricka
05-16-2011, 01:39 PM
This is how my TRG channel came

SonnyThomas
05-16-2011, 01:46 PM
Greg,

I guess I misunderstood, too, but technically he's correct. The back of the bow is that part facing the target as we stand at full draw. This is a throwback from the old recurve days. Somewhere over the years we have just become accustomed to the back being called the front. At least that's what I thik he's saying. Isn't our terminology confusing at times?


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I was going to get Carlso to stand at the back of my bow. :D

polaris754
05-16-2011, 02:16 PM
yikes on the chop dude , I would give martin a yelp GREAT CS ,if its a prob they always fix it :eek:

bfisher
05-16-2011, 04:59 PM
Bricka, I have to admit that I've never, as long as I've been shooting, seen a channel like that for a cable rod. That's just plain weird.

Wabbit, is yours this way?

Greg, yes it seems weird to reference bow parts in such a manner. I'm with you though. Front is front and back is where I am when looking at the bow from the string side.

bricka
05-16-2011, 06:06 PM
Yeah that was the reason why I was thinking about heating up the glue that holds the carbon rod in. The cracks by the set screws is my only concern but i believe if i was to get another carbon rod it would do the same. Does anyone think putting it in an oven on low temp would let the glue become plyable before it started to melt the plastic slide of the TRG and replace the rod with a standard one of the same length.

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 06:26 PM
This is how my TRG channel came

I'll be honest, I like that better than mine which has the channel cut full length. It gives it a little more strength. I swear my bow bends from left to right ) when I draw it back. When I eventually build a draw board I plan to take some measurements of the flex. The last thing I want is that sucker snapping in half at full draw!

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 06:30 PM
Greg, yes it seems weird to reference bow parts in such a manner. I'm with you though. Front is front and back is where I am when looking at the bow from the string side.

Barry

If you are talking to me I'm not Greg. The "M" in MLN1963 is for my first name, Mark. :p:o:):cool:

Oh yeah, when a recurve shooter is making his arrow with the proper FOC (front of center) is that the end with the feathers or the sharp pointy thing?

wscywabbit
05-16-2011, 07:27 PM
Bricka, I have to admit that I've never, as long as I've been shooting, seen a channel like that for a cable rod. That's just plain weird.

Wabbit, is yours this way?

Yes B, mine is similar. The pics of mine will show why I was confused about how the rod being a little long could be an issue. As you can see, on my Onza (and on the Firecat I almost bought) the rod goes all the way through:

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/wscywabbit/DSCF5871.jpg

And so that you can have a little better understanding of the TRG (cable guard) and SOS (suppressor), here is a closeup of it as well:

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/wscywabbit/DSCF5873.jpg

MLN1963
05-16-2011, 07:30 PM
Do you use green wax or is that chunks of your sting on the TRG?

In the first picture it looks as if your SOS is pushing your string aft. The string looks to have an arc to it?

wscywabbit
05-16-2011, 08:13 PM
:) no I don't use green wax, but it's not string on the guard either; the factory strings are very heavily waxed, and the color is leeching into the wax.

MLN1963
05-17-2011, 04:13 AM
wscywabbit

I never noticed that on mine. I'm glad it was something simple like that.

Is your TRG pushing your string back? The string looks arched in that first picture of yours.

wscywabbit
05-17-2011, 06:12 AM
it does push the strings, but that's the way its designed; to push the strings out of the way at rest so the fletching will clear. Right now I have it set so that at rest the strings barely touch the front end... that way they don't slam into it at release.

MLN1963
05-17-2011, 10:07 AM
I was talking about the SOS. I think you you are talking about the TRG?

wscywabbit
05-17-2011, 11:55 AM
:p ya, you said TRG... the SOS does look like its pushing in the first pic, but I've got it just barely making contact right now... still trying to find the right position for the quietest release. You had any luck with that?

bfisher
05-17-2011, 01:27 PM
Barry

If you are talking to me I'm not Greg. The "M" in MLN1963 is for my first name, Mark. :p:o:):cool:

Oh yeah, when a recurve shooter is making his arrow with the proper FOC (front of center) is that the end with the feathers or the sharp pointy thing?

OK, it's Mark then. Darned if I can remember who PM'd me with the name Greg. My apologies. Now are you asking me how FOC is calculated?

Wabbit, I've seen the dye from the strings permeate the wax, to, so that's nothing new and nothing to worry about. I also notice from the pics that, IMO, those cables are starting to fray prematurely. Much more so than I would prefer. I can't get over the machined groove the rod sits in. Most riser just have a 3/8" hole drilled through the center and two drilled and tapped holes for the set screws clamping right in the middle of the rod instead of the heads against the rod.

wick
05-17-2011, 01:36 PM
I just had my TRG and rod replaced this week. They supplied a shorter rod to bring the TRG closer toward the riser, (away from the shooting string). They supplied a picture demonstrating the proper setting that they recommended. Here's some pictures showing the placement that me and my guy at the shop matched it at. I've got my SOS just touching the shooting string. Hopefully the pictures turn out.

MLN1963
05-17-2011, 04:32 PM
Does this TRG look any different than the last. It looks like you can see the molding lines. Maybe the picture makes it look worse than it is?

gravedigger
05-17-2011, 04:53 PM
Does this TRG look any different than the last. It looks like you can see the molding lines. Maybe the picture makes it look worse than it is?

my buddy has a exile(no longer with a trg) and i could see and feel the molding lines no problem.i could see and feel the molding lines plin as day

wick
05-17-2011, 05:19 PM
Both my old and new TRG's had the molding lines. I was actually expecting to receive one that was totally different after reading some of the different posts about how some people were hearing rumors of martin using different molds and material and so on to make the TRG's now. but this one is exactly the same as far as i can tell. I havn't had any problems with it tearing up the string like others have. mine was just too far toward the shooting string on the original one.

wick
05-17-2011, 05:23 PM
my buddy has a exile(no longer with a trg) and i could see and feel the molding lines no problem.i could see and feel the molding lines plin as day

Your'e buddy no longer has the TRG? Did he go with the rod and slide? If so does he have a string stop? Martin sent me a conversion to do the same but I don't have a hole in the riser behind the stabilizer to mount a stabilizer so I kept the same set up. The dog gone thing shoots so good I really didn't want to change it any way.

Destroyer
05-17-2011, 09:41 PM
The more I see the trg the more I don't like.

mudpig
05-18-2011, 06:59 AM
TRG rod channels....Same model... (Silencers) manufactured maybe 3 months apart.

bricka
05-18-2011, 07:22 AM
TRG rod channels....Same model... (Silencers) manufactured maybe 3 months apart.

Mudpig,

That is pretty messed up I wish mine was cut all the way through. It would have been nice if my silencer was cut all the way through

bfisher
05-18-2011, 07:28 AM
The more I see the trg the more I don't like.

Me too, Greg. I was thinking of putting one on my Nemisis, but I think I'll just pass on it for a while. Maybe next year if they make some useful changes to it.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-18-2011, 01:55 PM
One passing thought on the TRG. If they put a teflon roller in the whole length where the cables
slide. Once you drew back the bow, the cables would roll the roller and slide on the roller, thus reducing friction.

2839

Hutch:cool:

MLN1963
05-18-2011, 02:12 PM
One passing thought on the TRG. If they put a teflon roller in the whole length where the cables
slide. Once you drew back the bow, the cables would roll the roller and slide on the roller, thus reducing friction.

2839

Hutch:cool:What if the coefficient of friction is less on the self lubricating TRG material than a steel roller?

I just realized you said TEFLON roller and not steel.

Ignore this post. :o

justin
05-18-2011, 02:15 PM
well..... then the trg would make faster aarow speeds!!!! hutch u should check on a patent!!! seems like a really sexy idea to me!!

gibson 787
05-18-2011, 02:26 PM
One passing thought on the TRG. If they put a teflon roller in the whole length where the cables
slide. Once you drew back the bow, the cables would roll the roller and slide on the roller, thus reducing friction

Hutch, when you say teflon roller, do you mean aparatus containing moving parts like bearings etc?

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-18-2011, 02:42 PM
Hutch, when you say teflon roller, do you mean aparatus containing moving parts like bearings etc?
Yes Dave, I have used them and they would roller perfectly and the cables would slide smoothly.

Hutch:cool:

gibson 787
05-18-2011, 02:56 PM
Yes Dave, I have used them and they would roller perfectly and the cables would slide smoothly

You might be onto something there Hutch, any idea what costs might be involved?

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-18-2011, 02:59 PM
You might be onto something there Hutch, any idea what costs might be involved?
Probably another $5. dollars and not a big process to install.

Hutch:cool:

gibson 787
05-18-2011, 03:07 PM
Probably another $5. dollars and not a big process to install.

If that's all, might be your next project Hutch, seems like the current configuration is not going down too well.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-18-2011, 03:11 PM
The neat part about putting a roller in, is when you draw back one cable goes up and the other goes down. With the roller one side will go up and the other side down. That would make it move freely.


Hutch:cool:

gibson 787
05-18-2011, 03:30 PM
Well Hutch, now you just gotta find the time to make it!

Destroyer
05-18-2011, 03:42 PM
Maybe next year if they make some useful changes to it.

Hopefully. :D

The truth is I hope they drop the thing altogether and go back to a css or cable slide but I'm not holding my breath.........



Well Hutch, now you just gotta find the time to make it!

And show us when you do!

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-18-2011, 04:37 PM
I don't own a TRG so I guess I can't make one. But if I did I would covert it in a minute.


Hutch:cool:

SonnyThomas
05-18-2011, 04:48 PM
I got it! Do away with the TRG, CSS, guide rod and whatever. Go to using two vaned arrows! 180 degrees apart.

MLN1963
05-18-2011, 04:55 PM
The neat part about putting a roller in, is when you draw back one cable goes up and the other goes down. With the roller one side will go up and the other side down. That would make it move freely.


Hutch:cool:

I know what you are saying but I don't see it being that way in application. You would have to have the up cable pinched between the roller and something else it the TRG was to look similar to the current configuration. At least that is what my mind's eye is seeing. :confused:

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-18-2011, 05:00 PM
The roller would be between the cables. imbedded in the TRG with exposed surface of the roller on both sides. That would allow the cables to touch the roller one on each side.


Hutch

MLN1963
05-18-2011, 05:08 PM
Right, but the cable on the inside if you will, is pulled away from the roller not to it.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-18-2011, 05:13 PM
Right, but the cable on the inside if you will, is pulled away from the roller not to it.
Add a roller to the back side as well. If the back cable doesn't have any wear than leave it with one roller.



Hutch:cool: