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View Full Version : One piece riser!



Speedykills
05-24-2011, 04:12 PM
How do you guys feel about the 3 piece riser design Martin is using!Would you like to see a one piece design in the future!

SonnyThomas
05-24-2011, 04:22 PM
Kinda don't know yet. Of course the riser of the Shadowcat is a long one. Perhaps there is some strength in that the riser is broken down, short sections, and then reinforced through dowels and bolts.

Ehunter
05-24-2011, 04:39 PM
I see nothing wrong with the 3 piece riser. It's been out for years, and has proven to be durable and reliable. I'm not saying it's better than a one piece, but I can't see where it isn't as good as one.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-24-2011, 04:49 PM
Its guaranteed for life. Then I will shoot it till it blows. And replace it if it does.



Hutch:cool:

HawgEnvy
05-24-2011, 05:19 PM
Its guaranteed for life. Then I will shoot it till it blows. And replace it if it does.
Hutch:cool:

x2. I don't see any drawbacks to the 3pc riser. I've not heard of any problems with it. If it did crack for any reason,its nothing that couldn't be welded if one were so inclined.

Destroyer
05-24-2011, 05:48 PM
Don't like the 3 piece riser. I know it has benefits like cost and material waste but I'd rather have a one piece riser with potentially better alignment.

gravedigger
05-24-2011, 06:16 PM
i would like to see a solid riser.it would be sweet.

Speedykills
05-24-2011, 08:07 PM
I think it would be more time consuming to put 3 parts together than mill just one!

bfisher
05-25-2011, 08:19 AM
I think it would be more time consuming to put 3 parts together than mill just one!

True, but with all the reflex these risers have these days it takes one big chunk of metal to machine a one piece riser. All those aluminum chips are nothing but waste. Bigger chunk of metal costs more, takes longer to machine.

So far, in the 4-5 years that Martin has been using the modular risers there have been a few that came loose, but no more problematic than one piece risers that have snapped in two. And each piece, being shorter, are really stronger than one long piece of aluminum.

SonnyThomas
05-25-2011, 05:15 PM
True, but with all the reflex these risers have these days it takes one big chunk of metal to machine a one piece riser. All those aluminum chips are nothing but waste. Bigger chunk of metal costs more, takes longer to machine.

So far, in the 4-5 years that Martin has been using the modular risers there have been a few that came loose, but no more problematic than one piece risers that have snapped in two. And each piece, being shorter, are really stronger than one long piece of aluminum.

Well, not exactly waste. Chips gets returned the founder or scrap yard and some cost is recovered.

A small machine can machine smaller parts. And as I thought and bfisher also states the three shorter sections can be stronger than a one piece riser.

A machining problem exists for aluminum. Heat, stress, and stress relief can bring about warpage. The stress and stress relief is no mistake. Stress; aluminum can be bent or twisted. Stress relief; The basic aluminum stock is graded. Machining (heat) and removing metal can change the grade. Now consider the bigger the riser and the more it is effected. A one time the final cut of machining aluminum was actually "fuzzy" or removing perhaps no more than .002" stock. I am not familiar with machining a riser, but I had my share of machining internal "housing and wheels." Long story.

Rockyhud
05-25-2011, 05:52 PM
I'm perfectly fine with it also. About 2 years ago when I was dealing with a cracked lower limb I did some online research into 3-piece risers and whether this design was attributed to ANY issues related limb or other issues. What I found was there are and have been several other bow makers who have and still to use multi-piece risers for the obvious savings in material cost savings. The machining costs are still expensive but these are apparently more than offset by the savings in far less material waste and expenses related to dealing with smaller parts.

There is also another advantage that I wasn't aware of that I found. When metal is poured into molds and cools it takes one a granular orientation that is for the most part oriented longitudinally with the piece. By machining the center/handle, upper and lower riser pieces separately and machining mating surfaces for these to be attached to each other the metallic grain orientation is better preserved in the area where these pieces are mated together with indexing pins and bolts. The advantage this apparently has is some strength increase within the transition area where there is a change in the plane of each piece. With single a piece riser the grain isn't aligned in this region in such a manner as to provide the best strength. With a 3-piece riser the grain in all 3 pieces is aligned and so with the mechanical clamping forces applied by the bolts holding these together there is a stronger transition region.

This doesn't necessarily make them "better" relative to shooting better or other attributes, but from a pure standpoint of mechanical strength does make them stronger.

gibson 787
05-25-2011, 06:26 PM
I don't really have a preference either way. If it was a one piece, we might not get as many fancy logos to cover up the pegs and screws, not to mention the rubber VEM!

cyclepath
05-25-2011, 06:55 PM
I'm don't know alot about risers but there is a difference in the aluminum stock they use for their bows. The most common is 6061 grade which is not the best for machining a single piece riser yet this is what MANY bow companies use. As was mentioned before the grain has to run in the same direction for strength and be thick enough in the main body for stability. This keeps costs down yet as you may or may not notice the bows come in pretty heavy making a one piece riser. Others use a higher grade aluminum, say 7075 which is far stronger and of course more expensive, but will make a far better riser. Of course this expense is passed on to the consumer. I would have to believe that martin knows these things and use the less expensive aluminum in three sections to keep the best strength for the riser, also keeping costs down. Look at the weight differences between the bows and martin is usually one of the lightest.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-26-2011, 12:51 AM
I smell spam!



Hutch:cool:

Speedykills
05-26-2011, 03:07 AM
I smell spam!



Hutch:cool:

What,you want to eat now......................

HawgEnvy
05-26-2011, 05:01 AM
I smell spam!
Hutch:cool:

me too


What,you want to eat now......................
nope! Yukky!

bfisher
05-26-2011, 08:33 AM
I smell spam!



Hutch:cool:

Spam is gone for now. Looks like you have to settle for peanut butter and jelly.

Man you guys are a wealth of information. I worked in a steel mill making rails for trains so I'm aware of how molecules get arranged for strength. I just didn't want to be typing all night to explain it. You know me. Loooong winded.

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-26-2011, 02:08 PM
Spam is gone for now. Looks like you have to settle for peanut butter and jelly.
Peanut butter and jelly! I suppose that's better than spam any day!!!!!!!!!



Hutch:cool:

Speedykills
05-26-2011, 02:19 PM
Im not saying i dont like it,i cant tell a difference between a solid or a modular one,shoots great but i just wanted to see what everybody else thought.

Destroyer
05-26-2011, 07:06 PM
The most common is 6061 grade which is not the best for machining a single piece riser yet this is what MANY bow companies use.

Depends on the treatment. Martin states the risers machined from 6061T6 by the web site, and T6 is a pretty hard alloy.


As was mentioned before the grain has to run in the same direction for strength and be thick enough in the main body for stability.

Is a riser machined from a block that is forged, rolled, cast or extruded? Grain structure changes then.

SonnyThomas
05-27-2011, 05:01 AM
You would have to do a deep search, but I remember watching a Martin film. It had talk of the aluminum as it show the machining.

MLN1963
05-27-2011, 06:34 AM
Depends on the treatment. Martin states the risers machined from 6061T6 by the web site, and T6 is a pretty hard alloy.



Is a riser machined from a block that is forged, rolled, cast or extruded? Grain structure changes then.

It seems like it could be any of those using 6061.

6061-T6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy#6061-T6)

Destroyer
05-27-2011, 03:56 PM
It seems like it could be any of those using 6061.

Yep. :)

Found the older 'features_of_a_bow.wmv' but they only mention the alloy number.

http://www.martinarchery.com/video/

cjchasman
05-27-2011, 04:16 PM
Does anyone have a pic of the Bolt/Pin assembly of the three pc. riser. I wonder if this type of connection adds to or decreases vibration over a one piece???

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-27-2011, 04:42 PM
Actually, vibration travels through one piece uninterrupted vs. traveling through a 3 piece where it is broken in its travel. Or in better words dispersed differently. Not saying one is better over another.


Hutch:cool:

cjchasman
05-27-2011, 04:59 PM
Actually, vibration travels through one piece uninterrupted vs. traveling through a 3 piece where it is broken in its travel. Or in better words dispersed differently. Not saying one is better over another.


Hutch:cool:

That being said, do you think it would be beneficial for each piece to have it's own dedicated vibration dampning insert on a 3 pc.?
cj

By the way , Ye who loves pics...did you see the albino fawn posted?

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-27-2011, 05:05 PM
That being said, do you think it would be beneficial for each piece to have it's own dedicated vibration dampning insert on a 3 pc.?
cj
Yes! If you took a square tube and held one end and hit the other you would feel it. Take 3 pieces of square tube bolt and epoxy them together in the same fashion as a riser. Then hold one end and hit the other. You will not feel the same vibration, but you will feel some of the transfer. Thus vibration dampening needed.


Hutch:cool:

cjchasman
05-27-2011, 05:10 PM
Hutch, I was editing my post as you were writing. I asked a "Picture question" :o
Was just wondering 'cause you like pics so...

Also sounds like I'm gonna try 3vem"s on my bengal. :eek:

Hutch~n~Son Archery
05-27-2011, 05:12 PM
By the way , Ye who loves pics...did you see the albino fawn posted?
Yes very very cool something you don't see everyday.


Hutch:cool:

SonnyThomas
05-27-2011, 05:48 PM
Actually, vibration travels through one piece uninterrupted vs. traveling through a 3 piece where it is broken in its travel. Or in better words dispersed differently. Not saying one is better over another.
Hutch:cool:

Kinda makes sense. When the ole lady whacks me with the frying pan I sort vibrate all over.

Destroyer
05-27-2011, 11:44 PM
Actually, vibration travels through one piece uninterrupted vs. traveling through a 3 piece where it is broken in its travel. Or in better words dispersed differently.

You need to think of where is goes and what the are effects of stopping it each piece. I don't think the vem's etc, do that good of job.


When the ole lady whacks me with the frying pan I sort vibrate all over.

But your not one piece lol! :D

HawgEnvy
05-28-2011, 05:07 AM
I can snap pics of the bolt locations of the 3pc riser if you guys would like. On my Cheetah,there are 3 bolts under the round American flag emble,and to under the rubber vem shelf. However,even when it wats down to bare metal,the seams of the 3pcs were nearly non existent.

I was also considering adding a 3rd vem since there's another cutout w the same diameter. Unfortunately,its right between the sight mounting holes

cjchasman
05-28-2011, 06:20 PM
HawgEnvy...My curiosity and I would appreciate the pics. Thanks

cj

Destroyer
05-29-2011, 02:09 AM
Post away!

jonsan63
06-01-2011, 01:24 AM
i would like to see a solid riser.it would be sweet.

I also want same thing.. It would be really very good..

_____________________________
Law and Order Criminal Intent season 10 episode 5 (http://download-law-and-order-episode.edogo.com/)

Hutch~n~Son Archery
06-01-2011, 10:33 AM
I also want same thing.. It would be really very good..

_____________________________
Law and Order Criminal Intent season 10 episode 5 (http://download-law-and-order-episode.edogo.com/)
What kind of riser do you have? What kinda bow too?


Hutch:cool:

HawgEnvy
06-01-2011, 11:06 AM
PM'd ya, CJ

cjchasman
06-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Thanks Hawg...I replied 1st one didn't seem to go through. Hope ya got second response.

cj

HawgEnvy
06-01-2011, 03:55 PM
Thanks Hawg...I replied 1st one didn't seem to go through. Hope ya got second response.

cj

got em both. Pics sent via email

cjchasman
06-03-2011, 03:54 AM
I'm gonna try to load pics. Thanks to Hawg for sending to me. These are Hawgs 3 pc riser pics. I think I got the images mixed up but you get the idea. The following is Hawg's comment...
The red dotted lines are the seams where the pieces bolt together. Barely noticeable. Img.073 is a view of the front of the riser. It appears to have been welded and smoothed as well as pinned n bolted. Img.078 is the sight mounting holes w the 3rd VEM cutout between them. The riser is an '08 Cheetah. The VEM shelf extension screws on over the 2 bolts in Img. 076. Img 075 and 077 are the top and bottom views of the shelf.

I don't see how there could possibly be any strength issues w the 3pc design.

Thanks again HawgEnvy

CJ

Speedykills
06-03-2011, 04:01 AM
Now that i see these pics i must agree they look very strong,now i have no reservations about these risers being anything but top notch product,thanks for the pics.

cjchasman
06-03-2011, 04:10 AM
One more pic from HawgEnvy ...Only allowed 5 per post.

CJ

Destroyer
06-03-2011, 08:40 PM
A bit small. Like to see larger photo's. ;)

cjchasman
06-04-2011, 02:01 AM
A bit small. Like to see larger photo's. ;)

We'll give her a try...29372936293529342933

We aim to please...CJ

Destroyer
06-04-2011, 02:34 AM
Much better. Cheers CJ! :)

MLN1963
06-04-2011, 06:31 AM
It looks like they bolt they riser together and then do a final sanding to smooth the joint.

HawgEnvy
06-04-2011, 08:47 AM
in the 2nd pic from bottom in the above post,it looks as though it was welded then smoothed over. If I still had my angle grinder and flap disc I could get that even more smooth. Hopefully,that won't show in the powdercoating. It wasn't noticeable w the dip. There are also sharp ridges and burrs on the cut-outs that could be removed w a dremel and grinding stone. I may go over it thouroughly before sending it off. I had planned on having it done already(p-coat),but can't decide on a color.

on a side note,does anyone know where I can get stainless barrel nuts to match the stabilizer bushing? I don't want to just pick a color and go with it on this bow. I plan on keeping it for years and want that warm fuzzy feeling when I look at it.

MLN1963
06-04-2011, 03:42 PM
I don't think they would bolt it and weld it. If they were going thru the effort to weld they would only do that as the bolts wouldn't give any real advantage. Alignment pins would be sufficient.

archerx7
06-04-2011, 05:04 PM
in the 2nd pic from bottom in the above post,it looks as though it was welded then smoothed over. If I still had my angle grinder and flap disc I could get that even more smooth. Hopefully,that won't show in the powdercoating. It wasn't noticeable w the dip. There are also sharp ridges and burrs on the cut-outs that could be removed w a dremel and grinding stone. I may go over it thouroughly before sending it off.

I can almost guarantee that those grind marks will show through. Had a camo Shadowcat that I stripped and then had pc'd semi gloss black and those same marks showed through. I had the guy redo it in a flat black pc and it turned out much better. Probably better off to spend a little time and get those smoothed out. Spiker can probably give a little better input on it though.

Destroyer
06-05-2011, 04:37 AM
The riser is pretty rough in places. :eek:

HawgEnvy
06-05-2011, 05:26 AM
it is pretty rough. I'm going to attempt smoothing it out a little better.

Spiker
06-06-2011, 05:47 AM
I can almost guarantee that those grind marks will show through. Had a camo Shadowcat that I stripped and then had pc'd semi gloss black and those same marks showed through. I had the guy redo it in a flat black pc and it turned out much better. Probably better off to spend a little time and get those smoothed out. Spiker can probably give a little better input on it though.

Yep - that will show unless your going to use a textured powder.

HawgEnvy
06-06-2011, 06:17 AM
gonna have to flap disk it to perfection. I'm magic like that.

MLN1963
06-06-2011, 06:12 PM
Dear jimmy900623, I would like to see you disappear more than the three-piece riser.

Destroyer
06-06-2011, 08:59 PM
Yep - that will show unless your going to use a textured powder.

What would it look like? Any examples?


I would like to see you disappear

X 1000!

Arrow Splitter
06-07-2011, 01:28 PM
Dear jimmy900623, I would like to see you disappear more than the three-piece riser.
C'mon, spammers are invincible! LOL:p

wscywabbit
06-07-2011, 02:15 PM
Dear jimmy900623, I would like to see you disappear more than the three-piece riser.

LOL too bad we can't give kudos in this forum!

archerx7
06-07-2011, 02:19 PM
What would it look like? Any examples?

Pretty certain Hoyt used/uses a textured pc powder on thier black risers.

HawgEnvy
06-07-2011, 05:16 PM
Pretty certain Hoyt used/uses a textured pc powder on thier black risers.

that's what I was thinking. I had an Alphamax 35 blackout that I traded for my black Athens an noticed the difference immediately. I like both,actually.

so,what about the inside of the limb pockets? Will the PC cause any clearance issues w the limbs?

Destroyer
06-07-2011, 08:22 PM
Pretty certain Hoyt used/uses a textured pc powder on thier black risers.


that's what I was thinking. I had an Alphamax 35 blackout that I traded for my black Athens an noticed the difference immediately. I like both,actually.

Thanks guy's. I'll be doing a bit of google image searching then. :)

archerx7
06-08-2011, 12:19 PM
so,what about the inside of the limb pockets? Will the PC cause any clearance issues w the limbs?

That will depend on the current tolerances you have on the limb/pocket fit. If you have a tight fit now, you may want to go a different route on the inside of the pockets or just do a real light pc on the inside.

Destroyer
06-10-2011, 03:45 PM
The pockets on my Pantera's weren't exactly tight so it wouldn't have made a difference. As long as it looks neat, there is no need to paint the entire pocket anyway.

HawgEnvy
06-10-2011, 05:53 PM
I took the riser to a local powdercoater yesterday. Should have it Monday or Tuesday. The guy said he did his and had no problems w fitting the limbs. Dropped it on my way to pic up my new idler wheel which is a newer,nicer looking model. I just picked up some wood for my DIY grips. I bought two pieces of red oak craft wood from Lowes. (1) 1/4x2x2 and (1) 1/2x2x2. Cost $4.82 total. I traced the shape of the rubber grips on to the wood pieces and will use the roto-zip to cut them out tomorrow. I've got enough for six sets of grips. Hopefully I don't mess them up. Wish me luck!