MOAB Limb Failure - AGAIN!!!!

Moments ago I discovered both the top and bottom limbs on my '09 MOAB have developed cracks on the outside of the limbs, opposite the Roto limb thing...

Here's the kicker - this is the third set of limbs to crack/fail since purchase from an authorized Martin dealer in March of '10. I have received two RA numbers and have had the limbs replaced, first by a bow shop authorized by an agent of Martin Archery, and second by Martin themselves. Of course I incurred the cost to ship the 1st set of broken limbs and then the entire bow back to Martin. With this pending repair, I will be on the fourth set of limbs. This is far from reasonable.

Before making any baseless assumptions, I'll mention a few obvious items: I know not to crank the bow limbs down to the riser, I have never kept the bow anywhere other than in my office or home (stable climate), I shoot 386 grain arrows at 65#, and have never dry fired the bow. What I have done is shoot the bow as one would when practicing or hunting and have treated it with kid gloves, consistent with all the other things I value.

With this latest limb failure, I immediately took the bow to the most reputable bow shop in my area. They refused to pull the bow back or even handle it for fear of catastophic failure. They even commented on the obvious and excessive appearance of the string torque as represented by the string leaving the idler wheel into the CCS. After admitting that the only thing I had done to the bow after receiving it direct from Martin Warranty Repair was to put the sight and rest on.

At this point I am extremely frustrated. I know that limb failure can and does occur. But I refuse to believe that 3 sets of limbs, and now going on a fourth can be due to simple bad luck. There is something inherantly wrong with the bow. Most frustrating is I will now miss a local 3d shoot, and Martin Customer service is not open on the weekend. So any recourse will have to wait until Monday.

Is my experience somehow within the realm of possibility? Do people ever go through this many sets of limbs on their compound bow (maybe many more at this rate)? I feel I have a lemon for a compound bow. And the real kick in the pants is that I have been shooting real well out to 50 yards. I feel real comfortable with the bow and have not wanted to purchase another brand. I just want the one I bought to work as advertised. Only the one and only bow I own is a danger to shoot, AGAIN!

I'm sure when I call on Monday, the gentleman who handles warranty repair (who shall remain nameless even though many of you know who I am referring to. He has always been very accomodating and understanding through this process) will recognize my voice and probably shake his head in disbelief. Much like I'm shaking my head in disbelief now.

Thanks for letting me rant. For those who care, I'll post my experiences. It's tough sticking by a brand that you really want to be loyal to, only to have that brand dissappoint over and over again.

LMJII

There's not much I can say to help. You've already been through the proper channels, it seems, and know who to talk to.....Joel. Maybe there is something wrong with the riser to cause such limb failures.

Personally I've only ever had two limbs failures in 38 years of shooting compounds bows. The first was a 1979 Ben Pearson Pro Staff 4000 which I made the mistake of leaving in a black case locked in the back of my truck on a hot sunny day. The heat got to be too much and the limb delaminated. My mistake, but pearson was gracious enough to give me new limbs. The second was a 2008 Martin FireCat which split in the limb fork. In this case Martin preferred to upgrade with all 2010 parts with the exception of the riser.

So, I would say that your experience is definitely not the norm.

Is there any way you can post a picture. By your explanation I'm not quite certain just where the limb is failing, but am interested in knowing for sure.

I will post a pick of the top limb. Of the two it seems to show the best. The bottom limb you really have to look hard. None of the cracks are cosmetic, as I hoped. You gan really grab a thumb nail on them as they are more deep than wide. Thanks for reading. I'm glad someone thinks the problem may be with the bow (riser) and not just a run of bad luck with limbs.

I'm actually happy this pic turned out. It was the first of the batch, and the best. Just out of pic frame left is the limb bolt. Thanks for looking

Is the break always in the same spot? Something's not right.:confused:

Looks like it's in line with the metal "button"? on the Rotolimb.

Short answer, no.

Long answer:

The first set of limbs (by the way, the top limb seems to be the one that goes with greater effect) developed a crack in the split near the idler wheel. It was a seemingly benign crack, but upon further inspection, the top and bottom limbs had cracked in the split areas, if I remeber correctly.

The second set of limbs develped a splinter that began to peel away on the top limb. The appearance looked like a portion of the limb was simply seprating from the rest of the limb. The splinter as I call it was about 2 - inches in length. Again, this was on the top limb only.

This time, the third time, I found the fissure or crack in the top limb. It is about an inch, maybe an inch and a half long. And just as that picture shows it as maybe a centimeter from the edge of the limb. What you don't see is a smaller yet similar crack on the other side of the limb that is also about a centimeter from the edge of the limb. The bottom limb also has a very minute fissure. If I had viewed the bottom limb fissure only, I might think it was purely cosmetic. Both of the cracks on the top limb are significant enough to scrape your thumb nail down. All of the cracks are indeed in line with the Rotolimb. They are on the outside of the limb, directly opposite of the Rotolimb.

Thanks for taking an interest.

LMJ

not any help here just wanted to say I am on your side, I would be freaking out, mostlikey loaded up the truck an headed north...
I trust that " the tech service guy" will be shocked as well and take care of you :o again..
I do wonder if ..there is any cam lean / limb twist ?

Well, I could be wrong, but something definitely doesn't seem to be right with the bow. Three sets of limbs, all cracking similarly, just doesn't make sense.:confused::confused:

A.S

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElkSlayer

I do wonder if ..there is any cam lean / limb twist ?

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X2 A good question.

Unless there is some defect in the riser, aren't Moab's a 3 piece pinned riser? :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elkslayer4x5

Unless there is some defect in the riser, aren't Moab's a 3 piece pinned riser? :confused:

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Correct, its a 3 pc riser, same as the rest of the Martin line. I sold at least a half dozen Moabs in 09, none have been back in for anything other than strings or a tune. I would have to believe this is an isolated problem with LMJ's bow. One set of limbs is is one thing but 3 sets...........I would have to think theres a problem with the bow thats being overlooked by his shops and the techs at Martin.

I know this doesn't make the experience you've had any less frustrating but when my bottom limb cracked, about 1-1/2 years ago, I checked into the possibility of the 3-piece riser being at fault. From all the research I did I could not find even one instance indicating this riser design being at fault. Now, with that said, your particular case makes me wonder if there's something wrong with your specific riser such as how straight or perpendicular to the riser the limb bolt holes are or some other mechanical tolerance that's not right. Having gone through 3 sets of limbs and now needing a fourth set, I feel certain Joel will want the whole bow sent back so they can inspect it to a much greater extent to find the root cause of the many failures.

If this were happening to me I would also press Martin to pay for shipping this time, given the multiple failures this bow has had. I hope you keep us apprised of how this develops because this will definitely be a case that will show just how good Martin customer service is. I'm betting they will come through and take care of you and your bow issues in a manner that's very acceptable to you, the customer. They haven't gained one of the best customer service reputations by treating customers poorly.

How long did Martin have your bow the last time for the third set of limbs? I don't understand why they didn't find a problem then? I hope you finally get this taken care of good luck?

I have an 09 Moab and although problems with this particular model seem few and far between, I encounted problems almost identical to your first two limb failures.

Fortunately the problem was solved before it progressed any further, after I was sent a conversion kit containing Acu-Trak cam and idler, Roto cups etc. and importantly, the new solid core limbs. Pleased to say, after many hundreds of shots, the bow continues to perform beautifully.

I'm certainly not a technician, however I think your issue is more likely than not, a limb problem, possibly related to faulty resin that bonds the limb laminations together. Hence the recent switch to solid core limbs. Maybe the resin begins to break down after time, meaning that all the 09 replacement limbs are destined for a similar fate because they were manufactured at a similar time.

I live in Australia and have been buying Martin bows, traditional and compounds, for more than 30 years. In all that time, Martin hasn't let me down yet and I'm sure they'll get your bow fixed soon. I've got quite a number of Martin and Rytera compounds but I think my 'go to' is still my 09 Moab.

Good luck mate.:)

I'll try to address the previous concerns. Let me please say that I appreciate the attention everyone has given my concern.

As far as cam lean, I'm not sure any is present. I say this because when I look at it critically, in a statis position, I can't tell of any lean in the cam, nor the idler wheel. BUT, when I received the bow from Martin this passed month, the string exiting the idler wheel, toward the CCS, was/is at an extreme angle, much more than I recall previously. So much so that it seems the string was replaced incorrectly (my thoughts as well as the bow tech. whose comments were relayed earlier). But this does not explain why the limbs from previous episodes failed. I would suggest the string/Idler wheel tandem did not seem to be so radical at that time.

As far as limb twist, I obviously can't tell when drawing the bow. I will try to post pics of the idler/string entry/exit point from front and back if that helps.

As far as the 3-peice riser is concerned... Prior to purchase someone pointed out that as a potential weakness. I have "bumped" the bow with my fist to sniff out any vibration in the past. I have always felt like the bow is loud, such that I felt betrayed by Martin'e claim that they make quiet bows. But I have never heard anything from the test vibrations to suggest that the riser is loose, or even contributory in transmitting or initiating any vibration or effect that may be transmitted to the limbs. I don't know.

I do know that I am looking at a fourth pair of limbs. I also know that I feel like a sucker for paying sipping over and over again for a recurring problem that is now sure to be due to a defective compoiund bow system, maybe not just 3 sets of bad limbs.

I'll try to post pics of the extreme angles of the string and idler relation, although I don't think it to be conclusive for reasons stated earlier. Thanks again everyuone for your help. I just want my bow to work.

LMJii

Sorry for the poor spelling. Working on a long day, without any spell check.

Thanks again for the responses.

LMJii

Like I said earlier, I'm about convinced that the extreme string angle as it leaves the idler is not a contributor to my limb failure issues. It is alarming that it didn't look like this before going tom warranty repair, but does now. Also, as a disclaimer, I don;t know enough to determine if this is extreme, but the accomplished bow tech. thought it was very remarkable that I should receive this back from the factory.

In order, the back, front of idler wheel/string relationship. If you look well, you will be able to see the relationship between the pictures. Also included is a pic of the back side of the cam. Don't know of anything remarkable. Just thought I'd include it because I know I don't know enough to what I don't know. Thanks again for the attention.

I thought I'd note that I have had the bow for about a year. I have been infrequent with it's use, more lately than before. I have noticed, again as seconded by the bow tech. that the string is "ate up", as he put it. Just food for thought... no pun intended.

LMJii

what side of the cable guard do your strings run? The strings on my Cheetah run on the shelf side. It looks like your cables are pulled further to the side than they should be.

Well, from the back side of the bow, as I pull, the strings run to my right of the center shot side. Yes, they do seem to pull harder than they did, especially before I sent the bow to Martin Warranty! I never noticed the extreme lean until I got the bow bacK from Martin. I will personally guarantee the bow did not bit at the idler wheel like that before I sent it to Martin. I'm not laying blame I've said before, in my limited experience, the limbs failed before the perceived hard string angle from the idler wheel to the CCS. I'm telling you though, the string is hard pressed to keep form. Thanks for asking.

LMJii

Seeing these pictures i can tell that something is very wrong with your bow. I have a 2008 MOAB and there's almost no visible limb twist. You must fix this or you'll keep cracking the limbs.

From the pictures I'd say this is pretty indicative of how cables come off the idler wheel. I'm not sure but I tthink I recall that some idlers had a fairly sharp edge on them that led to excessive cable wear. This may have been changed so it's worth asking Joel about.

The cables are pulled to the side more with the use of a CCS. I saw this on my 2010 Rytera Alien Z and made an alteration to the system. I removed the CCS and put a 1/8" washer between it can the riser at the front hole. This called for a longer screw but it changes the angle of the CCS and moves the rollers more in line with the string. It gives less clearance, but there is still plenty. I use 4" feathers and the feathers protrude under the CCS and only clear by about 1/16", but that doesn't bother me. Clearance is clearance. If you use high profile vanes like Blazers this might not work.

Because of how much the cables are pulled to the side I'm not a great fan of the present CCS. I think it produces much more fletching clearance than necessary and put undue pressure on the limb tips as the bow is drawn and pressure increases on the cables and a sharper angle of how the string exits the cam/idler. It also leaves the owner no way to adjust for more or less clearance like the old dog-legged rod did.

I have never seen a limb split where your appears to have. The splinter you talked about happens once in a while, but that's usually more toward the middle of the limb where it does most of it's bending. The other common spot is right in the bottom of the limb fork and I believe this is due to the twisting forces applied by the cables.

I would really like to see some sort of balance like Martin had with the X system on their Fury, Nitrous, and Furious cams. With this system there are four cables, no cable guard, and NO side load on the limbs. The cams can be positioned so they and the string groove track right down the middle of the bow so any and all cam and live travel is just vertical and no side load whatsoever on the limbs. The problem with these is that people can't figure out how to load an arrow between the cables (especially with a broadhead). The arrow is actually loaded from the front and the nock is backed a few inches into the string, but I guess that's not quick enough for some folks or they are not smart enough to figure it out. Nor are they smart enough to see the benefits of such a system. It may not be a perfect solution, but nobody else has come up with anything any better as of yet.

The geometry is a little different on the 2009 compared to the 08 because of the CCS. It doesn't look bad to me.

Here's my idler, yes the string(served) is getting worn but the limb isn't twisted. Not sure why the factory string isn't served there.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...n/100_1271.jpg

I also swapped the spaced on the cam end to bring the cam closer to the CCS side to help with lean.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...n/100_1274.jpg

My next suggestion about the limbs breaking: has it been pressed improperly? Just throwing that out there.

Barry, I agree the CCS gives you more clearance than needed; might try the washer trick, thanks. The 2008 has an unadjustable cable guard but it doesn't pull as far as the roller.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CaptJJ

The geometry is a little different on the 2009 compared to the 08 because of the CCS. It doesn't look bad to me.

Here's my idler, yes the string(served) is getting worn but the limb isn't twisted. Not sure why the factory string isn't served there.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...n/100_1271.jpg

I also swapped the spaced on the cam end to bring the cam closer to the CCS side to help with lean.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...n/100_1274.jpg

My next suggestion about the limbs breaking: has it been pressed improperly? Just throwing that out there.

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I notice the little rubber cap is missing off your draw stop, too.

CaptJJ

No, the limbs have never been pressed improperly. I've never done it myself, and the latest limb failure, which happened yesterday, comes about 2 weeks after receiving it directly from Martin Warranty Repair. I don't suppose they would have pressed the limbs improperly.

I appreciate the pics you posted. Perhaps my string is not at such a hard angle. I like the serving at the idler wheel. When I last shipped my bow to Martin, I included a 2-page letter which may not have been read or determined to be non-relevant. In that letter I mentioned the repair history, and all concerns I thought were impolrtant to diagnosing the problem (repeated limb failure). Among those concerns was the lack of serving at the idler wheel. I was optimistic that they would have done more than slap another top limb on. A comprehensinve overhaul may be what this bow needs.

Thanks for your interest.

LMJii

I'm not sure what to think, we are even shooting the same DL, weight and arrow weight.

I really feel for you, if they fix it again it will be tough for you to have much confidence in the bow at this point.

I appreciate the sympathy. I guess you could say I already feel "gun shy" about my compound bow.

I'll keep posting my experience for those who care to learn how this turns out.

Thanks.

Just spoke with Joel, who was understanding, and have received an RA # and a shipping label will be provided.

After a brief discussion (I'm sure Joel was picking up on my frustration), neither of us could come to an acceptable reason as to why the limbs could possibly keep failing. That's no surprise. In fact Joel mentioned that no one else has had such an experience with the MOAB. Indeed, I mentioned the time I have spent conveying my experience on this Tech Forum and the concensus is that I have a very odd bow on my hands. Limb failure can and does occur, but there has never been any history of such terrible luck as I have had with this MOAB, let alone any other bow in the world!

I'm hoping the shipping label gets here soon. I'm anxious to get it back to the factory and have them take another look. The last time I sent the bow in I included a 2-page letter detailing the repair history and my concerns with the bow. This time, I'll be updating the letter, and including a copy both with the bow, as well as a copy sent to Joel.

By the way, it's got to be a tough job to be the front-line contact on the warranty calls. Although I feel I've been reasonable to deal with, considering I'll be going on my fourth set of limbs, I'm sure others are not so patient. Joel seems to do a good job diffusing the situation and getting to the necessary action.

I'll keep posting accordingly. Many have sent PM's relaying their concerns. I appreciate the time that many have taken to contact me regarding my MOAB. Thanks for your interest.

LMJii

Hopefully this time Martin will find the problem so you won't have to deal with any more limb issues.

A.S

Hey LMJii,
Sorry that you're having such trouble. I was told, too, that no one else was having the problems that I was having (after the second set of limbs on my Warhog), so I think that this is just a bit of unfortunate phrasiology that they use to calm the situation down. I hope that your next set of limbs (or replacement bow) has you on your way for good. Please let us know how this turns out for you. Best of luck!

Hey thanks much.

I have communicated with a few people who have had limbs fail (albeit not three sets). Some have said that Martin provided new limbs, but in some cases also reconfigured the bows with new components, strings, etc...

I have begun to wonder what they, Martin, intends to do different this time than the last time they had my bow, which was only about a month ago. At what point will they feel that repeatedly correcting the limb failure by replacing the limbs does not actually fix the problem? I joked with Joel and said that at the current rate, and given the proposed solution, Martin should just ship a set of limbs every month, in perpetuity. I say this because is it really possible that I have broken 3 sets of limbs through normal use? What are the odds of that? Something is causing the limb failure.

In the back of my mind I wonder if they will just replace the bow. Many people may find this to be a preferred solution. Indeed that would address the problem, I mean a whole new bow, complete with necessary components would obviously wipe the slate. But I bought the MOAB because I wanted the best single cam bow on the market (at least in late '09 and early '10 that was my opinion). I know they have discontinued the MOAB, so where does that leave me? If they have any new MOABs lying around, I'd take one over their current offerings... meaning, I want a MOAB.

We'll seewhat happens I suppose. Maybe the lifetime supply of limbs is the solution!

LMJii

At least you can joke about it:).The best solution probably would be to give you a new bow,there is something more than just a limb problem.Hope they get you squared away.

SL

Martin still has a good reputation and I am sure they will do their best to take care of the problem. At least you voiced your concern. And now with the recurring problem known, they should take care of it. I truly hope things go well for you. Keep us all posted.

Hutch:cool:

LMJ,

There is another option of Martin decides to do so and that is to replace the bow with a FireCat 360. This is virtually the same bow with a different name. I, too, hope they fix this situation to your satisfaction. Look at it from the bright side. As fast as you are going through limbs they should run out fairly soon and have no option but to upgrade to a 2011.

If I couldn't laugh about it I'd probably cry. Well maybe not cry, but I'd certainly pout.

What's done is done. As Hutch said, Martin has a good reputation and they are dealing with it in an upright manner. It was Martin's reputation for great customer service that was one of the reason's I chose a Martin product over all others.

I'll try not to whine anymore. I'll just forward updates when relevant. Thanks all.

LMJII

The next time you contact them, be sure to let them know exactly what has transpired with this bow and ask if its not possible to just swap this one out for a different bow. The possability of you getting 3 bad sets of limbs is unlikley. There has to be a problem with the bow itself for you to go through that many limbs in that short a time span.

Thanks Bfisher and Archer. Yes, a new bow would be a complete solution. Oddly enough, I just want a solid MOAB. I have developed an affinity to this particular bow. All things are relative, I've only been bowhunting/3d-ing for the past year, but the MOAB seems to be the last of the clean looking, un-assuming looking bows. It appears the bows in the Martin line have become more complicated looking. I suppose we'll see what transpires. It would be funny if I were the reason Martin exhausted their supply of MOAB limbs! Thank you for the attention. Bfisher I know you are omnipresent, so I especially appreciate your opinion.

Thanks, Leigh

:confused:To those who have followed since day 1: The bow was shipped and received by Martin on 04/18/11. It was accompanied with a letter explaining the repair history and listed the authorization numbers associated with the bow. I addressed the letter to the attention of Joel, who has been very helpful to date.

I'm hopeful that someone there will take ownership of the issues I've experienced and not simply pass the bow along for another "stop-gap" repair. I don't suggest that any prior repairs were short-cuts used to solve the problem. But given the history, I'm merely implying that these lingering problems (repeated limb failure) are not to be remedied with another (fourth) set of limbs, but rather with something more conclusive.

As a result of being without the use of the MOAB, I've missed many league shoots and 3-d archery opportunities with the bow being "in for repair". As long as it took for Martin to forward the return shipping label (see previous posts), I'm almost fearful to project how long, and what the remedy may entail now that they have had it for a week. For the sake of disclosure, I contacted Martin on the day the bow was confirmed to have arrived for warranty repair and left a messege that I had confirmed its arrival. In addition, I stated I would be happy to provide additional info so everyone could be on the same page. I have yet to hear from Martin. I'm left to wonder what is happening.

For those who are interested, I'll keep posting as new info arrives.

Leigh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LMJii

:confused:To those who have followed since day 1: The bow was shipped and received by Martin on 04/18/11. It was accompanied with a letter explaining the repair history and listed the authorization numbers associated with the bow. I addressed the letter to the attention of Joel, who has been very helpful to date.

I'm hopeful that someone there will take ownership of the issues I've experienced and not simply pass the bow along for another "stop-gap" repair. I don't suggest that any prior repairs were short-cuts used to solve the problem. But given the history, I'm merely implying that these lingering problems (repeated limb failure) are not to be remedied with another (fourth) set of limbs, but rather with something more conclusive.

As a result of being without the use of the MOAB, I've missed many league shoots and 3-d archery opportunities with the bow being "in for repair". As long as it took for Martin to forward the return shipping label (see previous posts), I'm almost fearful to project how long, and what the remedy may entail now that they have had it for a week. For the sake of disclosure, I contacted Martin on the day the bow was confirmed to have arrived for warranty repair and left a messege that I had confirmed its arrival. In addition, I stated I would be happy to provide additional info so everyone could be on the same page. I have yet to hear from Martin. I'm left to wonder what is happening.

For those who are interested, I'll keep posting as new info arrives.

Leigh

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Thanks for the update Leigh, I'm very interested in the outcome. On a different subject, I noticed your arrow speeds of 292fps. That's pretty fast, just 2fps under the maximum advertised IBO for the Moab, that's going on the stats you provided. It's actually exceptional if you have anything attached to your string at all. The best I can achieve is about 12fps below your speeds. Just a thought, but I wonder if this points to extra stress on the limbs via a too acute angle on the limbs at the Roto cups.

Hope it all works out for you
Dave