Sonny, I have done the paper tuning thing in my basement and then have gone outside and done the walk back method on the same bow. In fact my Martin Cougar FC that I shoot now. After the paper tuning I still did some fine movements of the rest.
With my buddy's bow this past year I just went over installed his rest and eyed it up and had him do the walk back, made a couple of adjustments and in no time at all to me he was shooting very tight groups to 30 yards. About a month later he changed to a different rest and did it himself and said it was the quickest and easiest way he has ever seen or done in the past.
Yup ... simple as one can get in my opinion.
Bow tuning tip
Not saying Walk Back doens't work and I've even suggested it to others. The original version has not been changed since 2007.
Copied from 2007;
" Hang a weighted string from a nail on a target. [I would hope the string is good thickness because a kite string can be difficult to see 40 yards down range].
Stick a round sticker on the target face so that the string splits the sticker. Use your existing 20-yd pin, step back 20-yards from the target and fire at the sticker. [First distance]
Don't worry about where the arrow hits.Walk straight back to 30 yds, and using the same 20-yd pin setting,
fire an arrow at the sticker. [2nd distance]
Repeat at 35 yds and at 40 yds, using the 20-yd pin and firing at the sticker. [3rd and 4th distance]
If your arrows look like this pattern " / " or “\”,
then pick a direction and move your arrow rest 1/16th inch. [Choose a direction?]
If the pattern gets straighter (more vertical), then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction.
If the pattern gets more crooked, then adjust in the other direction.
Keep firing arrows and keep adjusting the arrow rest position until you get a vertical pattern of arrows.
Eventually, your arrows will hit in the target is a straight up and down line like this " | ".
LOCK down the arrow rest setting. Your centershot is perfect.
The author of Walk Back tuning has in his tuning guide this; There is a little known secret called MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING (illustrated above) which does what walk back tuning does, but it is much MUCH easier to do.
For the life of me I can't say easier, but far shorter and with less distances to use. Always there is "dragging out" of procedures. I R not some sand box kid, nor do I believe sand box kids are using either procedure. There is this archery coach who routinely has articles in a well known magazine. The man is indeed quite archery intelligent, but then writes in a manner dictating that of us being children. One too many articles of such and I by-pass his articles like I would the Black Plague. I find it is a small wonder that both the above author and this article writer doesn't have a step by step procedure for nocking the arrow...
Again, too much within a procedure actually detracts from the value of the procedure. Me; "Zero in on the string at 9 feet." I don't need a step by step procedure to set my sights. Understand me, here?
I will go a bit farther. I am no all great tuning wiz, but my tuning that works for me, works for me. The above author and another went so far as to say my tuning procedures/setup procedures are far lacking. Whatever lacking really means. I shoot. I compete...not on the national circuit, but club and state sanctioned events I do and quite often.
Again, I am not great archery shot, but don't bring your "B" game and expect to walk all over me. Aged that I am, I still compete in Adult, not senior in club events. I shoot only Super Senior in ASA events...
So like many I must submit a resume each year. Since year 2000 I have placed 3rd or better well over 120 times. I can only count 3 or 4 times that I haven't finished in the top ten. So I submitted such information and a picture to the two who wished to disclaim my procedures. They have not responded, nor have they of late detracted from my comments or replies.....
And by all means, what works for you, works for you. Use it.....
Last edited by Sonny Thomas; 12-24-2013 at 10:50 AM.
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I don't know what method mine is called. I use the same method as you do. After I set the rest and check it in my basement or wherever at about 10 feet, I usually start at about 10yrds, then 15yrds, then 20, and finally 30. I just call it "walk back" because that's what I do. I always thought that's what it was. I'm not sure if the exact yardages are important and I know that the farther the distances the more exact it will be. I always get mine very close and then after I have shot a lot with a new bow I do it again. Right before the Archery Deer Season I check it again. I'll also check it from an elevated position moving the Target, so I guess then it would be called: "Target Move Back". I'm kind of anal at making sure my bow and arrows are tuned and flying right, especially before the season. I want everything to be right and take away that guess work if/when I miss a shot. That way I know it was me, and that's ok. Although, you know there is always that little twig I didn't see....lol
Last edited by Mike G; 12-24-2013 at 01:32 PM.
Mike, yes, you are very close. I'm trying to retrieve a passage from one of the world's greatest archery shots. I'm thinking Levi Morgan on Facebook. Something of saying you don't have to be overly precise. Given was; Use same pin. Zero in at 20 yards. Then shoot out to 50 yards. If groups are left, move rest right and vice versa. This is done until you are dead on at 20 and dead on at 50. Bow is set for center shot... I would guess this to be something of my "rush job" of French tuning.
Levi has been letting things out that really...disrupt (a good word) a few of the highly proclaimed bow tuners and those giving coaching tips/lesson..... Other top shooters are letting things out that have never been let out before.
Bow tuning/sighting in. I don't know if I have noted this here. This last Saturday I agreed to help a person that just bought a Rytera Alien Z. I checked his bow over and basically just set the draw stop and had him watch, even had him set the draw stop as I held position. Set, he gave it a draw. He was quite impressed that the Alien Z had such a hard wall. No creeping, no having to hold on for dear life. I also gave him a shake down on taking his bow down without the use of a bow press.
I then installed a Sure Loc 4 pin fixed sight. He gave that it'd take some time to sight in, but would get it done. So I gave him a shake down on setting the 20 yard pin and this usually getting on paper at 20 yards and sometimes so close that only minor corrections are needed. ???? Maybe I have told of this before. Seems someone saw what I had and measured his 20 yard sight pin and how it looked to the arrow aligned to the bow string. He replied of such and what I had was near exact on.
Center shot pretty much set (and I had this and had him see what I was looking for and did)
Align the arrow with the string and move sight so the pins are just left of the bow string.
Measure up from the top of the arrow shaft 3 3/8" and set the pin height. (move gang (housing), not the pin). 3 3/8" is a a basic average I have found.
All that remains is shooting to see where your arrows impact. He didn't have any arrows, but I've set sights in this manner and had many customers all but dead on and only made small movements to be dead on and a few have been so dead on that they didn't even have to move their 20 yard pin.
I guess I impressed him. I didn't charge him a dime, but he wouldn't let it go and ended up buying me lunch. The shop is closed. I do what I do because I like to. Later that day, playing around, I set center shot for this customer, using the method I use, up close, 9 feet or so and back to 30 yards. He was happy. That he interrupted my playing I really socked it to him. Yep, cost him a whole whopping diet Pepsi....
Of two other instances of years past;
One, I set up a bow for this customer. Got it where I wanted it and went to the indoor practice range. Witness all over the place that day. I asked for a moment and those practicing gave me the go ahead. First shot, dead in the X. Second shot, slapped my first arrow.
Second instance; Setting up my target bow. Installed new strings, sights, peep and all. Two Martin staff shooters present and a couple of others practicing. First shot, left and low of the bull's eye. Second shot, just low and left of the bull's eye. 3rd shot, in the bull's eye. Liking how things were I continued and recorded a 298 with a goodly amount of Xs.
It was then that one of the Martin staff shooters watching went to bat for me and I was then shooting my first Martin Shadowcat, a 2010. Later, not on staff mind you, but I had my own 2010 Shadowcat at Silver Level status, I believe this the entry level for staff shooters. I think, Silver, Gold, and Platinum are the levels. Barry should know for sure....
Last edited by Sonny Thomas; 12-25-2013 at 01:55 PM.
Well, can't submit a new post so I'll expand this Thread - See pics in above Reply for here. That's the way I gotta do it....
Target stabs; I had played with front and back stabs some time back, more like years. But then I came across a sweet heart buy/swap and picked a new Bernie's V-bar 3" Ultra-Lite and two Mini Silencers. I gave $200.00 for a ton of stuff and that I sold off returned twice over what I paid and the V-bar and goodies left over. He called it, not me and I asked if he was sure. He needed the money. Later, I ran into another sweet heart buy, a Doinker V-bar with quick disconnects, 10" back bar and 6 oz of weights to go with it. He put the price on it and I bought it, no trying to talk him down. I knew I got a pretty good deal. So I looked the buy up. I didn't get hurt one bit. But let me tell you something. Archery trinkets are a rip off. The weights can be bought individually or as sets and set of 3 is $23.00. 6 weights, $46.00!!! They're nothing but 1/4" tapped 1" stainless steel washers.
I've used my old 30" carbon Cartel for years and haven't found anything that beats it by any measure that says I need something else. I had one of those fancy Doinkers, a Fatty Supreme with weights ($138.00 - in with the buy/swap above) and one try and it was on it's way to Hawaii. Just changing the front weights made it acceptable on every target bow I've owned and had no doubt it would work on my present target bow.
For the MarXman I began with the 30" Cartel and removed weight until I was down to the 1 oz end cap and a Maxjax of 3/4 oz and I didn't use a back bar at the time. And I did okay.
Later, I added a Bernie's "V" bar and all the weight on the left side. This felt gooder and I did pretty good all last year. I can't say that Mini Silencer reduced any shock as the MarXman is pretty shock free.
Just recently I went with the Doinker set up. The Cartel up front and the Doinker on the back and left side with 6 oz proved sort of okay...to some degree, but it needed something. So did some reading and read, a Doinker write up and other information said; "Let's try this." "This" amounted to my 30" Cartel and 4 oz on the 10" back bar, which was set down and out to give me clearance. There was, I think, improvement. Read some more. I then went with 3 3/4 oz out on the end of my Cartel and 6 on the back bar. This is proving very nice. Bow is just a hair over 7 pounds and weight gives a good feel. There are tests other than accuracy. At full draw, not trying to shoot, and all feels nice. Still, I ran out of weights for both front and back. Said, is when "there" you will have a oval little hole. Well, my oval hole isn't small, but staying in the X ring and catching the edges of it. So some more weight, but add and subtract as necessary for more weight. And then you have to get use to the extra weight. I've went up a pound and after 40 shots with the last arrangement I was sweating. Yeah, about 30 degrees, a hint of a breeze and a light jacket and ball hat for warmth.
Okay, you just don't throw weight on a bow and expect magic. Weight has to distributed to balance the bow in-hand and at the shot. I have the Doinker write up, formula and I believe a link to one stablization read that goes way into depth. I can post or PM them should someone want.
Last edited by Sonny Thomas; 12-25-2013 at 01:57 PM.
New entry to the tuning list. Maybe not new. I'll post a couple of pics at the end. Everybody is "Friends" with Tim Gillingham and I'm on his list Just recently he releases his Torque Tuning procedure and with a overdraw. Say overdraw today and it's blasphemy. My second and third new store bought bows were the Hoyt MagnaTec and UltraTec and both with factory overdraw risers. I never gave a second thought about either being of overdraw design. I wanted, I bought.
And I commenced to do a going "beating up" of the 3D competition. There for about 3 years there 3 of us holding on to 3rd place and better. How can you shoot that thing? was a regular comment. And me returning; "What are you talking about?"
With seeing the picture of my UltraTec you will get why I was asked such. The vane of my arrow set right between the prong of my QuikTune 3000. As such, from tip of the prongs to the deepest part of the grip measures 2 1/2". That same deepest part of my Pearson MarXman to launch arm of my Limb Drive is 1 3/8". Tim says his measurement is 2".
Tim gives of torque tuning whereas you torque the bow one way and center the pin and shoot and then troque the bow the other way and center the pin and shoot. Mercy! What corrections come are reducing the error of, I guess, normal human torque error. I have the complete write up if some one would want. It is rather long, but I've seen longer...
Last edited by Sonny Thomas; 01-04-2014 at 07:42 PM.
Bow tuning tip
Couldn't stand it any longer! Heck with the snow, heck with the cold. Slapped the bow together, jacket and hat and hit the door. Presley' Annual Indoor 3D is just a few day off and I'm trying to decide to go...trying being the key word. Shot it last year and didn't care for how they didn't follow the rules and the same rules again this year...
Anywho... I stuck in a smaller orifice.....which I think I messed a ways back. I get all ready and it starts snowing, light, but there. A slight breeze, but not enough to make the eye water. Brushed the snow off the target that was there. I had plowed a path through the snow yesterday.
20, 25 and 30 yards had my arrow driving right in and finished with 35 yards. Little distractions were there, snow making the evergreen's limb hand a bit low and don't know when, but the wife stuck up another bird house. Must 15 bird houses in the yard now. Took a couple of tries to get all 3 go in back to back, but drove them, but a bit low. That slapping sound from 35 yards is just as bad as from 20 yards.
Draw board / shooting machines.
Draw boards. Nice, but you don't need them and we've done without them for years. First one I ever saw was Byran Furgeson's. Byran being one of the most notable Traditional Trick Shot in the world. Wasn't fancy like the ones today, looked like heavy plywood with a inch scale markings. Just set bow so the grip caught a thick peg, attach hook to string and pull on a rope that ran through a pulley. He had little draw scale incorportate so get poundage at draw length.
So, I have my bow set up and done through a "J" hook screwed in the ceiling. The draw length is correct, the timing is perfect and the draw stops set perfect. But is it? Okay, a challenge flung and I don't back down. I take my bow to the archery shop that just opened. I know the owner, he's a ASA Senior Pro and sponsored by PSE. He has a homemade draw board/shooting machine. Here goes;
Me; "Tim, tell me where it's off." So Tim puts my bow in his machine with arrow nocked. He first draws it to the draw stops. The draw stops are fitted with O-rings.
Tim; "Man, they're perfect, both touching at the same time."
So Tim draws a bit more and both timing "tabs" touch.
Tim; "Sonny, I can't time a bow any better than you have yours."
So he fires my bow and the arrow is dead straight in the target butt. Arrow pulled and shot again gets the same results, perfectly straight in the target butt.
Tim; "Shoot that sucker!"
Now, I didn't put my sight frame on my bow. Better than $300.00, nope, not in some machine, though Tim's machine holds the bow very well.
Bottom line; You can set up a bow very well with the use of a "J" hook, you have to be careful as letting up has derailed many bows. I've done it once and learned dang quick. You can also set up a bow without a draw board or "J" hook and I've done it plenty of times.
Former and current Back Yard Champion. I beat myself
hey sonny after reading this post I did the walk back tune wich ive never done before ive always just paper tuned and called it good but after readin that paper tunin is just a step to fully tunin your bow I decided to try this walk back tune. It took a couple of adjustments but my arrows r flying straighter than ive ever seen before and grouping tighter at longer distances . Its great what u can learn from more experienced archers thanks for this thread I will be retuning all my bows with more than just paper tunin from now on paper gets ya close but walk back gets ya dead nuts.
2013 Martin Onza Xt
2012 Martin Cougar Fc
2011 Martin Ridge Hunter turned Silencer
2006 Martin Cougar 4se
Fred Bear Grizzly @ 45lbs and Shakespear wonderbow @ 50lbs
Love bows and everything bout bow hunting!!!
I have many that comment of the tuning procedures out there. Okay, Walk Back works. Modified French Tuning works. Short range French Tuning works. Full French tuning works. Other tuning procedures work. That we are all different of mind or limited to that available we use what works....
Tuning procedure have come down from the past, some mutating to cover the compound bow. More years than what I want to remember, wanted was a slightly high and right or left tear (right or left handed) through paper. This was said to give consistent correction to the arrow. Desired "bullet holes" came about, but bullet holes were found not the finishing of tuning, but one step of tuning. The race for the perfect tune procedure became rampant. The return of slightly high and right or left came recently and much debated, but supreme accuracy of target point arrows noted by many. And then one highly acclaimed tuner/coach noted "Those using field points can get away with murder." I am not one of those who highly acclaims this tuner/coach and for reasons.....
I make no claim of any tune procedure and well hope that no one gives me the honor. I don't want it, thank you. If noted I pointed one in some direction that he or she likes, okay.
How do I say this...... I first found French tuning through a article by John Dudley. French tuning was old then and John didn't know why it was called French. He used it and liked it and wrote of it, 2004 era - I used it then when I first competed in Field and Outdoor.
Real short; John starts with a reasonably tuned bow. John says to zero in on a dot at 9 feet. John notes this will give the average shooter a distance of 52 to 57 yards. And of course moving the rest for correction and starting all over again.
I have John's PDF, but the link is gone. I could post "snips" to show if some one wanted.
So a follow through link 3 thru 7. Read it, read it back to John's info. Is that noted in the link a modification in hiding? Is it really his to claim?
Former and current Back Yard Champion. I beat myself