A question for Nitro Cam users

[Sonny Thomas]

//// The speed increase would be nominal and hardly worth the significant investment in new cams, string and limbs. Despite what any printed material may say our dual cam bows will all shoot at approx. the same fps. It is simply not worth the money for 2-3 fps. As I explained on the phone to davik...the Onza will ALWAYS be the more efficient bow. There is nothing we can do here a the factory to change that.

Now you know.

When the Onza III came out the staff/shop shooters in my area and I thought it should have been in the Pro Series line up.

[joelc]

Now you know.

When the Onza III came out the staff/shop shooters in my area and I thought it should have been in the Pro Series line up.

Now I dont know...a dealer called today that read this thread and said he noticed approx. 10 fps difference between the cams favoring the larger 2.0 cam. In all of my years here at Martin I have never known the larger cam to be more efficient...both the dealer and I were surprised by his findings.

So...I dont know what to tell you. But I still say the cost is not worth the increased speed.

[Sonny Thomas]

Not doubting the report one bit. I've set up identical bows and for what reason one was faster than the other. Same everything. It happens.

I also remember years back of the Tournament of Champions, I think was the name. Identical set up Cameros stock cars and one just flat out ran all others regardless of driver (each driver drove a different Camero for the event). One man supervised the building of the cars. It was inspected, complete tear down, and all was as the others. Tested it still out ran the others. It was finally removed the Championship.

[davik]

It's not the speed that has me baffled, it's the draw weight...I can get the speed out of both bows...284fps with a 27" 300 gr arrow at 27.5" draw...on both bows...the problem comes with draw weight...on one, I get that speed at 54 pounds the outher 64 pounds...the problem lies in the fact that at 64 pounds, I am shooting less than 5gpp and this will not fly. I must do something to correct this to be safe.

[Sonny Thomas]

I like to have your bows to see what is different. Like Joel noted the Onza will be the more efficient bow. There is 3/4" difference in ata and 1/4" difference in draw length. And there is actual draw length to measure. Some bows draw longer than others even though set to indentical reference lengths. Okay, 27" is a number, actual can be way different. Example my 2011 Shadowcat. It is set to 27" and measures exactly 28 1/4" AMO draw length and I had to twist the strings to get it this low.

What strings? Factroy? I've re-served a couple of HammerHead strings and lost speed, not much, but for sure lost speed. Difference being what Martin used and what I had on hand, BCY .021".

[davik]

But all of this could be solved by a tech that's interested in finding out...take two identical Nemesi...is that the plural of Nemesis?one big cam the other small cam, and set the DL to 27.5 and fire them through the chronograph...one set of cams is going to be faster...which one? I ordered the Nemesis with the information that the smaller cams were more efficient...therefore faster...no one told me the Onza was going to be the more efficient bow...in fact, when I asked which would be better for the application, I was given a resounding vote FOR the nemesis...unfortunately, when the two were shipped to me by UPS...one got stolen...guess which one?! Convinced, I ordered the nemesis...with the more efficient smaller cams...and guess what? THE NEMESIS IS SLOWER THAN THE ONZA! surprise! the catalog says they are faster...or at least the same...they are not...my quest is to find out how to make the Nemesis shoot my arrow at 284 fps to be able to compete efficiently, without going over my poundage range and gpp. I am also trying to learn the bow as fast as I can to be able to compete. I have tweaked and twisted and adjusted this bow to wring as much out of it as I can with the current setup. I have a meeting with my rep on Wednesday to iron all of this out and figure out what I have to do to shoot these bows efficiently. I really like the way the Nemesis holds and shoots over the Onza, and would like to shoot the nemesis...keep you posted.

[wscywabbit]

Unfortunately I have heard both sides to the larger Nitro vs. the smaller one, that the larger cam has more leverage and does better, or that the smaller cam is lighter and does better, I don't know the answer here. I do know that it's not really a speed thing between the two cams; its a feel thing, as well as a long draw vs a shorter draw. You can set up a draw length that falls in the range of both cams and have completely different feels with the valley and power curve.

So, if all things are equal between two bows except ATA, and the longer ATA bow will be slower everytime. Its just physics. There is tradeoff though; a shorter ATA may have a slight edge in speed, but a longer ATA has an edge in stability. When I bought my Onza, it was a choice between it and the Firecat 400. I chose the Onza because I knew that even though I would be giving up a little speed, I would have a more stable platform. Now can you tweak the slower bow to make it more efficient? Yes you can, so lets talk about that for a second.

As Sonny said, even little things can make a difference, including things like serving. You can remove some of the center serving, so that there is a minimal amount specific to your nock point, or even try going to a lighter serving material like Halo. Different peeps, silencers, shorter Dloop, etc. can do a good job while being lighter and offering a slight speed increase. Little things add up.

But you want the biggest bang? Max your bow out, make sure that all the measurements are to spec and the cams are timed (don't worry about draw lenght right now). Now back your bow down to the weight you want. Now set your draw length, starting with a longer module setting than you are used to, and using the draw stop to set your length by moving it towards the (-). This will shorten your valley and raise your hold weight, effectively lowering your let off %. The lower the letoff % the faster the arrow will fly. Find a setting that is COMFORTABLE for you. I ended up around 76-78% letoff (can't remember exactly) and was happy with that. The valley is smaller, but I can hold against the backwall and not feel like the bow it trying to take the arrow away.

[davik]

I set mine up slightly differently than you...I have to watch arrow weight not draw weight...then I do all of the stuff you mentioned but with arrow weight in mind...the drawstop thing I'll try when I get back from Georgia next week...this was never about speed, it was about draw weight between the two bows...the Nemesis is 2" longer ATA, but the speed rating in the catalog says it's 5fps faster than the Onza, so I figured that I would be able to shoot it at the same weight as the Onza or a couple pounds heavier. It turned out to be 10 pound of draw weight heavier...that puts my arrow weight at less than 5gpp. To go to a heavier arrow is out of the question, and I've run out of limb adjustment to do that anyway(If I had been told that the bow was much slower, I could have bought 70 pound limbs and cranked them down to a desired speed, but I have 60 pound limbs based on the info given. I feel sure it will all work out, it's just the learning curve between shooting a mathews for 15 years and changing to a martin...questions...lots and lots of questions.

[wscywabbit]

I understand the problem you're having, and with these bows it is better to play on the safe side of arrow weight and poundage. I didn't catch the 5fps difference in the catalog, and I don't understand that at all. The only difference between the two statistics wise is the ATA. (I don't believe that the split limbs give any performance advantage). Perhaps it is a misprint? (We all know that never happens). I also see that the Onza got a shorter brace height this go around, it used to be 7 1/4"... which would make the Onza a little slower, enough to make up for the longer ATA of the Nemesis? I don't know...

Either way, it doesn't help with your situation. I'd play with your draw stop and let off percentages to see where it gets you. You may have to err on the side of safety and deal with a slightly slower outcome. Let us know how it plays out.

[davik]

I shot the Nemesis this weekend in Georgia at the ASA Pro-Am...after a couple mental errors on Saturday...and a group of scorers using micrometers to call arrows, I was sitting 39th...16 down...on Sunday, the bow performed flawlessly...I shot 4 up and jumped to a tie for 22nd (25th by 12 count) This bow shoots great! Now if I can solve the problem with speed, we'll be cooking! I'm going to try that drawstop thing and see how it plays out.Thanks