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Thread: Got coffee? Bored, raining out? Read ramblings....

  1. #21
    Sonny Thomas
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    Default Got coffee? Bored, raining out? Read ramblings....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Thomas View Post
    Barry, that's them new fangled inserts, like Beman Vibrake inserts, vibration dampening system.
    Sims technology thingies. Best thing since sliced bread. Fantasic. Can't shoot good without them.

    Mmmm? Somebody give them a test hop and I might read the review. Not buy, just might read the review
    Quote Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
    Best thing since sliced bread? Yeah, right. Anybody who would believe this hasn't been around arrows very long.
    Well, I was trying to get someone to give a good review. I mean, my Gizmo/Gaget book is almost full and don't want to start another just for one giz...I mean, not for just one product

  2. #22
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    I like them because they came with the arrows; dislike them because they left with the target points. Beman evidently likes them because they want about three times the money for them as other inserts. I'm sure something else will fit!

    bfisher; I didn't mean for thread to drift away from the 'technical'. Sorry, my fault. Won't happen again.

  3. #23
    Senior Member macflash's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard Otis!!
    Glad I'm not long winded, ... okay have a sit...
    These folks here took me from completely Ignorant to just a little stupid in very little time, hoping to make it to might actually know somethin' soon.
    not sure if it still stands with the newer bows, but draw length on Martins usually run a little short, Example I measure 29" using finger to finger but bow sits just over 28", glad i read that before I bought my modules. with my release, my knuckle of my string arm pointer finger is just below my right earlobe and "locked" right behind my jaw. This gives me a set " Anchor point". When i draw this puts the string just touching my nose, in line with my eye (looking through the peep) and draws a line to right behind the corner of my mouth.
    Hutch i believe posted a great section somewhere in here with pictures of a proper stance, arm position, and all. it really helped me set my draw length, and anchor points,Example if your shoulders are not square, and your leaning back you need a little shorter draw, and to short you will be on the draw stop and fighting to stay steady, bow arm will start achin' ETC.
    once your square, and have a good "feel", even at max you should be able to hold it in the valley without to much trouble.
    Not sure of your set up but most can be shot turned out 5 turns, not recommended for extended shooting, usually 3 turns max, but with the fury's pounds and draw length are adjusted on the cams ...?? I say this with a huge question mark, as my poundage is set by turning out the limb bolts, at about 3#'s per full turn. On your bow also not sure, but i can get my cables to drop and string off by going out 12-13 turns and still be in the block.
    Sonny,Barry sorry if I said the same same,you guys did
    Mac
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  4. #24
    Senior Member peace's Avatar
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    Default Welcome OtisT....

    I know about being 6'4'' forty years ago and now I am six two. I have a wing span of 77" so I don't feel so bad when you say yours is just shy of 80".
    Well welcome to the forum and hope the insert gluing works out for you, looks to me like you are going to be educating yourself on how to do most of your own bow maintenance and tuning as that shop is lousy.

    We are big on DIY so you should fit right in here.
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  5. #25
    Super Moderator bfisher's Avatar
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    Otis, and others, no need to apologize for getting off subject, I'm as guilty of it as the rest of the guys. Not so much to change the subject, but just add info that maybe can be used. We're having a decent conversation here so unless somebody gets offended (PM me) I see nothing wrong with it. I think it actually lets us get to now each other a bit better. Carry on gentlemen.
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  6. #26
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    macflash, Peace; more kind welcoming's, Thanks. This is the only forum, posting of anything to the net in any form, I've ever participated in, because of the general tone and the obvious 'niceness' of the folks here (forum is new and different, probably why I got carried away, sorry!). I don't 'Face Book' or any of that kind of stuff; I may be the last person alive without a 'big shot' phone. But, I'm glad I started studying up on Martins! You know, I have gleaned good information off that Archery Talk site too, but have no compunction to be any part of it, other than reading up on some things. Some there seem a mite needlessly 'snarky'... lol

    macflash; I know I read in a couple places that Martins tended to run a little LONG in DL, at least for the 2012 year I was interested in; a selling point to me. Are we basically saying the same thing?

    Quote; "Example I measure 29" using finger to finger but bow sits just over 28"

    I THINK so. Your Martin is saying 28" but is, perhaps, closer to 29" DL? As for the bolt turns and such, I gotta find my dog gone bow scale and answer these questions for myself!! I know I had it just the other daa ahh well, a couple years ago. Has to be here some place! My anchor point; and, man, this would be hard to change, is; well, the 'web' of my thumb and fore finger, trigger finger, kind of circles my jaw bone. Long draw and short bow, I'll never have nose touching the string, but gripping ahol't my jawbone like that is, I think, pretty solid and consistent.

    Peace; I actually think it may be a good bow shop. I got there just as two young guys were opening up, maybe one was new or something; I'm not upset AND now feel less bad about not at least trying to buy bow semi 'locally' - forty miles or so one way, even if I'd known they were a Martin dealer. You know, in this day of internet pricing and big box stores, and even Wallymart selling archery items, I think companies need to be more accepting and accommodating of DIYers. Some of us are almost forced into it, whether or not we enjoy it.

    OH OH!! And, Peace, I got to thinking on the hype before the long ago Clay, Liston fights. I looked it up on the internet (if it's on the internet, it HAS to be true) and it's exactly the opposite of what I thought I remembered; Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay was 6'3" and had a 'reach'/wingspan of 80 inches.... Sonny Liston was 6 foot and a quarter inch tall, or 6'1" depending on source, and had a 'reach' of 84"! Ol' Sonny would reach out and touch too! Reach advantage didn't seem to help much against Ali. Watched those fights on free network TV, too... lol

    Sonny (Thomas, not Liston!) is right again; the La Brea tar pits dry up faster than Insert Iron. What I think is funny; I seem to find humor in most things, is that the package says Insert Iron is 'reversible'; I get this picture in my minds eye of putting my arrows in the crock pot on Thursday so I can shorten them a half inch on Monday. BUT, Sonny, I always have good sound and solid reasoning behind things I do! I used Insert Iron because I had it, must have got it two and some years ago when I got my other bow. My gun stuff is behind a ton of junk in my shop, thus the Dremel bit instead of brass brush; Acetone because I had it handy and no alcohol. lol Now you understand how I think; you may not want to participate in one of my 'Emergency Make Doo Tooth Removal' process'... unless you really like Wild Turkey, that is, and have absolutely no fear of shingling hatchets.

    P.S. Yeah, Hutch, like Sonny and others, posts a lot of good information, as well as making artistic bow strings. LOL I read ALL the way back on his strings for sale thread, just to see the pretty work. 'Back when' cables were actually cables, steel cables with double tear drops, it was pretty inexpensive to have a spare string handy, which I always did. Now, I'll have to talk myself into it! Sorry, bfisher, I did it again!

    o
    Last edited by otisT; 04-22-2013 at 02:42 AM.

  7. #27
    Sonny Thomas
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    Default Got coffee? Bored, raining out? Read ramblings....

    Otis,
    I understand making do with what you have on hand. Been, there, done that.

    It has been my findings that Martins run long for draw length. The ones I've dealt with have been at least a inch longer than the mod setting and my Shadowcats far more. Like my 2011 Shadowcat is set to 27" by the mods and I have the bow string twisted up to get down to 28 1/4".

    Basically, if you have gorilla arms you can move the mods to a shorter setting so overall draw length fits you. For us shorter arm guys....it's the pits. I think Barry would agree....

    Inovative are people. Inovative, is this a correct word...or spelling? So I have shooter friend who works at another bow shop. Basically, just use a colored pencil or White Out. Using a tape measure, measure from the string at right angle to the deepest part of the grip. Move straight up and draw a line on the shelf wall of the riser parallel to the string. Draw bow with nocked arrow and have some one mark the arrow at the line. Add 1 3/4" to the mark and measure bottom of nock to mark - draw length. Hope I a put this correctly.

    And then I have two survey steel tape measures and they are long enough, 50 foot and 100 foot These have steel loop to attach to whatever. So I have a "J" hook in the ceiling. Loop of steel tape on the "J" hook first and then hang the bow on the "J" hook at the nocking point. The spool of these tape measures have a lock. I let out enough tape to get my measurement and lock the spool - weight keeps pressure on the tape. I then draw the bow down, keeping it level. I eyeball the deepest part of the grip to the tape measure and have the measurement and add the 1 3/4" for AMO draw length.

    Draw length, draw weight thing. I have this fairly sharp string maker who also makes strings for off the wall bows, like in Frankenstein type bows. So he finishes my Frankenstein bow and it looks great, but the draw weight is more than I want and the draw length a tad long. I sent the bow with the mod I had on hand - Cam sytem being that of a Pearson Z7. I get the correct mod and it's pretty close. I call Roger and he gives; "Twist up the bow string 8 twists and see what you have." I did so. Perfect! Right at 62 pounds and dead on, hard into the wall 28" of draw. ??? Thought I had a pic of it in here. It's a Kodiak Outdoors Bow Logic 36. The red bow.

    Barry can tell you, a bit of cable adjustment and (sometimes) some real nasty twisting the bow string can really shorten draw length. Somewhere in my messed hoard of pictures I have a bow that has the cams grossly advanced to make draw length come out right. Shocking it is. And this bow works! Will see if I can find it.....Me find it! Mmmmm? Looks like maybe a Martin bow....
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    Last edited by Sonny Thomas; 04-22-2013 at 08:23 AM.

  8. #28
    Super Moderator bfisher's Avatar
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    Sonny's last sentence is referring to the blue bow with Nitrous cams. He has it short strung and the cams are grossly under rotated, probably by about 3" from what I'm seeing. And he says the bow still works.

    I can say that this isn't always a good long term arrangement, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Yeah, it throws the cam(s) out of orientation. It changes the a2a and brace height of the bow ( the specs). It also changes the weight range of the limbs and reduces letoff, but the bow is still shootable. In some cases, if you get an older bow that you can't find parts you are left with no other option except maybe get rid of the thing and get something that fits. Not everybody has the money to do so. So untwisting cables and short stringing can get him going until he can afford something better.

    And as far as specs go? I don't worry about factory specs. Even with my newer bows I twist the string, adding about 10 or 15 twists just to smooth out the draw cycle and/or to tweak the draw length (usually both). After I have the bow set to my liking and shooting well, then I measure the specs and let them be what they may. Most times factory specs are where the bow performs at it's highest efficiency. It doesn't mean it can't be shot with the specs different.

    People get too caught up in worrying about such things. They'd be better off spending as much or more time on bettering their shooting form. I can tell you this from experience. Nothing in archery is more important than good consistent form. Part of that equation is tweaking draw length to the Nth degree.
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  9. #29
    Sonny Thomas
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    Default Got coffee? Bored, raining out? Read ramblings....

    Quote Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
    Sonny's last sentence is referring to the blue bow with Nitrous cams. He has it short strung and the cams are grossly under rotated, probably by about 3" from what I'm seeing. And he says the bow still works.
    I believe nuts&bolts did the short stringing of the blue bow and for a specific reason that evades me at this time (like I forgot).

    Quote Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
    People get too caught up in worrying about such things. They'd be better off spending as much or more time on bettering their shooting form. I can tell you this from experience. Nothing in archery is more important than good consistent form. Part of that equation is tweaking draw length to the Nth degree.
    Again, Barry is correct. Form is parmount. I once penned a Post; "Bow Tuning is Secondary" The Post sent people on the war path. And then a couple of....? Notables? Sounds good. A couple of notables PMed and Emailed me, first ribbing me that I was a true "Instigator." But then also told of me being correct. And basically, a reasonably tuned bow in the hands of person using good form will make the bow look like it is tuned to perfection.

  10. #30
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    The blue bow is a Razor X and this is Alans reply to 'why the weird cam orientation":

    "Ahhhh.

    You noticed.

    Another part of the stabilization experiment,
    was to experiment with the following things:

    a) how much side stabilizer weight to get the front stabilizer follow through reaction to be dead straight forward (no up or down)

    b) how much total weight for the bow system could I handle, in order to hold steady better

    c) how could I keep the draw weight low (between 45 to 50 lbs) AND get near 50% let off percentage

    Answer to Experiment (c).....short string the bow ON PURPOSE.

    Those are Martin Nitrous Cams (size B),
    so I put the draw length module at maximum,
    about 2-inches longer than my preferred draw length...
    and
    built a custom string extra short,
    and then built cables to match (to get to my preferred draw weight).

    So,
    I have the best of both worlds.

    Solid Wall. Comfy draw weight (about 46 lbs). Nearly 24 lbs of holding weight.

    Draw is VERY SMOOTH.
    Lots of speed and nearly zero valley.

    Makes for a very crisp release, when shooting a BT hinge.


    The higher your holding weight,
    the more the mass of your bow system should be.

    High Holding Weight and medium-ish draw weight
    is the ideal system for a target bow.

    So,
    once you find the amount of side stabilizer weight
    that balances out your front stab weight...

    then,
    you can add weight to both ends
    or
    you can take off weight on both ends

    to match your holding weight.

    Your scores will tell you if your bow system is too heavy.
    On Monday this week, I just shot a Double Indoor FITA (240 arrows).
    Took quite a while, but the long training session....

    showed me what about my form works, and what about my form does not,
    and
    the x-count for the last 30 arrows of the 240,
    also tells me a huge amount about my current stabilization system.

    I have a new system coming in,
    and will repeat the experiment. "

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