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Thread: Cam lean (fury xt)!

  1. #11
    Super Moderator bfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLT Bluesman View Post
    What do you mean when you say "Binary cam system" do you mean a bow with two cams? I think I learned something here, I just can't figure out what it was. I think I learned that I want a larger ATA bow, with a smaller cam. I also have noticed the diameter of idler wheels is gigantic. Does this make a difference in lean on that limb?
    Now you're getting the idea of how I think. Think of it this way. I cam or idler wheel is nothing more than a round lever exerting pressure on the limb tip. As with any lever the longer it is the less effort is needed to make it do it's work. In this case the work is twisting the limb tips. The more pressure put on the lever (wheel or cam) the more the limb tip gets twisted. This is what we observe and call cam lean. Assume that the cam is straight with the bow at rest. As the bow is drawn more stress is transferred to the cables and as the bow drops into full draw the maximum force is applied to the cables (minimum force on the string). It is at this point cam lean will be greatest as the limbs are twisted to the max. The problem is limbs are not designed to be twisted, but bent toward each other. Another problem is that the string/cable grooves should be tracking in a straight line toward each other and parallel to the riser. Such is not the case with the cams "leaning". Depending on how the string grooves are machined this causes premature wear on the string servings at best and string derailment at worst. Well, almost. The worst case is limb failure (longitudinal splitting) due to constant twisting.

    So what is too much cam lean (limb twisting)? In my opinion there should be none whatsoever, but this won't happen so long as the cables are pulled to the side by a cable rod/slide or roller guard. This is the technology we have been stuck with for the last 35 years. It's always been in the design, but as bows become shorter the angle of side pull becomes more acute so more noticeable.

    So why isn't something being done about it? IMO, simply because we, as consumers, don't demand it. Limb failure rates are acceptable enough that companies can just replace limbs. Limb failure borders on about 1% across the industry for all reasons. And as much as that may be acceptable to most it's not always so for the person that experiences it. So long as we keep buying bows with this old technology they have no reason to address the issue. We, as consumers, are more interested in how much shorter and faster bows can become; not how much more reliable easier to tune, and pleasant to shoot.
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    The only exception to Barry's reply above, has been the "X-system" from Martin...

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    Barry, you pretty much summed it all up!

    I wonder how pleasant a bow would shoot if it had today's designs (past parallel limbs, short limbs) with yesterdays wheels instead of cams. Like for instance the nice wide wheels on my old Cougar II. Or with some smaller less aggressive cams. I bet it would shoot pretty nice.

    But your right, it would not sell, except to Grandpa's like me.
    2007 Slayer, 55#, Nitrous C, Bodoodle rest, Limbsaver sight, Kwikee Kwiver 3 arrow, Aka "The Man in Black"
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    Super Moderator bfisher's Avatar
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    I was going to mention this, but Iget so long winded that I like to cut things just short enough that some of you guys can get your post count up. LOL

    Bluesman, I'm not real crazy about the past parallel limbs either or the real short limbs. Yes, they get more speed, but again they are stressed pretty hard. To this old grandpa bows are starting to get downright ugly. No sense of style or tradition, something a lot of younger shooters can't appreciate. It's speed or nothing.
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    Ok, So Jake mentioned all cable systems except the X system. Now that is only available in the Nitrous Cam. Right? I am not satisfied with the notion that we have to accept a certain amount of limb failures. 1% is way too much. I will say that since I have been hanging around the forum, I see a heck of a lot of failure posts and it bothers me. I have not purchased a new bow since 1981. I don't think we had near so many limb failures back then.

    I have to agree with Barry, limb twist, cam lean, unequal yoking (sounding biblical there), are the culprits. So that leads me to the Nitrous Cam. But I want more brace than I think the Slayer had. Was the Nitrous cam used in other bows? Is that the only shoot through cam that Martin had?
    Thanks
    2007 Slayer, 55#, Nitrous C, Bodoodle rest, Limbsaver sight, Kwikee Kwiver 3 arrow, Aka "The Man in Black"
    1981 Martin Cougar II MT-6, 60#, Whisker Biscuit, Fuse sight. Kwikee Kwiver
    1984 Browning Deluxe Nomad II XL, 50#, Browning Rack & Pinion sight, Flipper II rest. Kwikee Kwiver

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    As far as limb failure goes, keep in mind that you're only hearing from a small percentage of all Martin bow owners. There is not a huge number of active members on this forum, and the total number of members is less than 2,000. Thus there isn't much accuracy if one were to get a percentage of limb problems from here alone. Also worth noting is that there have been other manufacturers with limb difficulties as well.

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    Senior Member elkslayer4x5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLT Bluesman View Post
    Ok, So Jake mentioned all cable systems except the X system. Now that is only available in the Nitrous Cam. Right? I am not satisfied with the notion that we have to accept a certain amount of limb failures. 1% is way too much. I will say that since I have been hanging around the forum, I see a heck of a lot of failure posts and it bothers me. I have not purchased a new bow since 1981. I don't think we had near so many limb failures back then.

    I have to agree with Barry, limb twist, cam lean, unequal yoking (sounding biblical there), are the culprits. So that leads me to the Nitrous Cam. But I want more brace than I think the Slayer had. Was the Nitrous cam used in other bows? Is that the only shoot through cam that Martin had?
    Thanks
    The Nitrous cam system was used on every bow that Martin produced during the Nitrous cam period. In another of your posts, you mentioned of noting a brace height of 6", in 06-07 ( not positive of the years ) Martin also used a 13" limb, and bow using those 13" limbs did have lowere brace heights. Arrows stayed on the string for another inch of power stroke, gaining more speed. Both of my 06 Slayers now have 14" limbs, got the 2nd one with 13" limbs, would have kept them on the bow but they where only 2Ms, gave me about 47#s with C nitrous cams, its currently set at 55#s.
    The X system, or shoot thru system cam also be found on bows with Martin's Furious Cams, and maybe one other cam, not sure of that name, pre 2004.
    Hope this helps clear up some of your questions.
    http://eastoutfitter.tripod.com/index.html
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    Martin 06 Slayer, Nitrous C, shoot thru, 63lb, Quiktune 3000, HAA OL 5519, Beman ICS Hunter
    Martin 06 Slayer, Nitrous C, Shoot thru, 55lb, Quiktune 3000, HHA OL 5519 2X, Easton A/C/C
    Ben Pearson 1968 'Cougar' 62" 45#s @ 28" recurve, parallel shaft POC, Zwickey 'Eskimo' 2 blade

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  10. #18
    Super Moderator bfisher's Avatar
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    4x5. It was the Fury cam prior to 2004 and was well liked. It just didn't have such a solid back wall as the Nitrous.
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    Senior Member elkslayer4x5's Avatar
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    Thanks Barry. Thats the one, no idea of why I keep forgetting that cam, unless it's because when I think bows with the name Fury, I think of the Darton Fury recurve that I bought in 1970 to replace my 67 1/2 Bear Super Kodiak. Bought Elksyayer's first recurve that same day, and gave him the Fury when I was told I had a torn rotator cuff and a bone spur, thought that I'd never shoot again
    Darn! Even this thread has the Fury name in it, all I can say is it's tough getting to my age. Think I'll go out to the garage and shoot my ole Pearson Cougar a few ends, help me feel a bit younger.
    Last edited by elkslayer4x5; 02-09-2014 at 07:20 PM.
    http://eastoutfitter.tripod.com/index.html
    http://www.cascadianbowmen.org/
    Martin 06 Slayer, Nitrous C, shoot thru, 63lb, Quiktune 3000, HAA OL 5519, Beman ICS Hunter
    Martin 06 Slayer, Nitrous C, Shoot thru, 55lb, Quiktune 3000, HHA OL 5519 2X, Easton A/C/C
    Ben Pearson 1968 'Cougar' 62" 45#s @ 28" recurve, parallel shaft POC, Zwickey 'Eskimo' 2 blade

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