Mystic Help

[SandSquid]

Taking the bow apart without a press sounds interesting????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b0O5HP-4eM

[flytier17]

I agree about playing with bows. In the early 90's I put a Darton Lightning cam on a Proline Carbon 44 bow. That was faster and smoother than the Lightning. It turned a lot of heads at a 3D at that time. The bad thing was at about 1000 arrows the top limb would start to split.

I am going to call Martin Friday and see if I can trade or what to get a set of 1M limbs. I also agree that shooting in the top 20% of draw weight is better. I am also going to get the smaller modules to put her on the high end of Draw length. This is my first try with a Martin am I am not making any conclusions yet. We got a deal on the Bow so we're not hurt yet.

Scaled both bows, the Martin starts pulling pounds faster. I am assuming it is the dual cams.

Taking the bow apart without a press sounds interesting????


Thanks for the ideas. and Happy New Year

A solo can ramp up as quickly or even more so than a Dual. it is just the design.

The Nitrous for example is a hard draw speed cam. But, it gets its speed through elongated rollovers into and out of the peak weight, and the peak is long and flat with no deviation. The result is a cam that is a speed cam, and draws hard because of the length of peak and absence of valley, but is not a harsh draw because of the gentle rollover. It is smoother and faster than the furious, albiet less fogiving.

[flytier17]

A "4M" seems a bit high to get below 35#.

My wife's (2006 ShadowCat, Elite Limbs Nitrous (not "X") Cams) bow came w/ 7?, WAY too high for her!
I found her some 5H but they were still too heavy and to get it down to 35#, we ended up (temporarily) with some 3H limbs (on loan form the local Pro Shop so she could shoot in the current league) and backed them a full 5 turns out... she's at 37.3# and managing but not overjoyed with it. (I tried telling her they were EXACTLY 35# but she told me they were not, that "she could feel it".)

I personally don't like them backed that far out, and I'm searching for some 1, 2 or 3L limbs to replace them with. If I can't come up with something used soon I'll break down and order some 1H limbs from Martin.

Question for you though, did you actually measure the Mystic and the Conquest side-by-side on a pull-scale? I have seen bows stated as a certain weight and actually pull a whole lot different.

Just because the # is high means nothing about how low you should put the limb. If it takes a 7 M or a 12 M or whatever to reach your wieght range, than you are OK.

What you have to understand also is that diferent cam styles and designs exert different forces on the limb. My Slayer with B cams and 2H limbs as originally mistakenly shipped to em peaked @ 60lbs. I needed C cams for my 29.5" DL. If I got them, the larger size would have resulted in a 50lb peak. Nitrous, Furious, C.A.T., Dyna, Mpro, z, and Fuzion cams all have different effects. As long as you match the deflection to the cam sizer to get your weight, you're good.

Also to consider is the different profiles of a bow's geometry. Certain angles on the limb pocket exert different prelaoded stress on the limb. Again, I will use 2 of my bows as an example. My Pantera and my Slayer both use Nitrous X "C" sized cams. Both are parallell limbed bows. The Slayer peaks at 65lbs with 5H limbs. The Pantera peaks at 55lbs with 2H limbs. to get the pantera to the same poundage as the Slayer, I would need 4H limbs. So I would have 2 bows with the same peak weight and the same cams. Why re different deflections required then? Why does the Slayer not need 4H instead of the 5H, or Vice Versa. The answer is differing preloads. The Pantera's geometry exerts the limbs more from the start, meaning it is already laoded up. with the same cams, the limbs have to travel the same distance, so the Pantera would be under more stress at full draw. Since the further a limb is stressed, the more resistence it offers, a weaker limb is required to get the same final poundage.

In no way should you use the shadowcat's specs with different geometrys and cam systems to determine the specs for a completely different bow. You can get a rough idea, but that is the limit of it. If you had a practiced eye and some basic knowledge of the comparing forces, as a bow designer would, you could get even closer. But they are still different bows with different profiles, and different cams.

If a 4H limb gives you a peak weight of 50lbs, than it is perfectly all right to back it down to 35lbs. It is within Martins design and specs. Even if you needed a 112H limb (no such thing, I am exaggerating to get a point across) to reach a 35-50lb weight range, you are still all right. They are just #'s, not statistics common to every bow and cam system.

And as far as I'm concerned, if you waqnted to back the bow below 35 by as much as 5 lbs, no harm will come in the short term. I would not plan to keep it that way foreevr, but for a while it will do absolutely no harm to your bow. especially considering the low level of stress that is already placed on the system. Like I said, the Pantera i have was shot at 13lbs. lower than its lowest weight setting range for over a year by an experienced Martin Staff Shooter who probably put quite a few arrows through it while at that system. I have also put the bow up to 63lbs with more limb preload by twisting cables, and shot it backed down to 55lbs with the shortened cables because I got better speed, and a smoother shorter rollover.

Also, with regard to "verifying" the bows weight with a scale, make sure it is an accurate scale, not a cardoza or a hardware store special.

[bfisher]

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest. Alec, you are handling this very well. Good explanations with lots of detail.

Poor Shooter, I was the previous owner of the 2007 Pantera Alec was explaining about.

[flytier17]

Why thank you very much.

How did I do explaining limb preload? That was the way I was told, and I partly figured it out too with some research. this is the first time I've really had to adress it.

Alec

[Poor Shooter]

I agree he did a good job of explaining. The only thing is by backing out the limbs beyond their spec'd range you lose a greater stored energy in the limb than you would if you were using them in the range. I have actually seen cables come off when you back limbs off too much beyond their intended amout. One of the examples I can think of was a PSE Bandit bow it was intended to go down to 30 pounds the guy backed it off to 25 after surgery and It would not keep the cables on. 30 pounds it worked great.

I appreciate the advice and I am going to call Martin in the Morning. I dont know anything about Martins and have never shot one myself. It gives me a starting point and tells me a little of what has been done to the bows.

Thanks again
Dave

[bfisher]

Dave,

I've seen what you're talking about, too. Just not enough tension on the cables and string so one or the other just pops off. In my case with the Pantera I was having muscle problems and ended up with neck surgery. For about the next six months I really stuggled with a 15# draw weight. When I finally got up around 25# I dug out my Pantera with Nitrous X cams. The only way I could shoot it was to crank it down and ended up at 27# (55# limbs).

Granted, I knew this would not be a permanent thing. At that time I even had trouble with the mass weight of the bow so ended up selling it to Alec and I ordered another bow; lighter mass weight and lighter draw weight.

I am totally in agreement with you that to back the limbs down too far permanently is not recommended. Best to get the right limbs for a long term solution.

[Poor Shooter]

Just to let you guys know that helped me out.

The Mystic Elite only goes down to a 40# max limb. (They are not advertised though) I have the new set of limbs on the way.

Thanks again
Dave

[bfisher]

Glad things are working for you---and the wife.

[Poor Shooter]

Thanks

They also said to keep the limbs in the range they said for the best performance. They agreed that a little less pounds probably would not hurt them short term. However they have a warranty.