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Thread: 2008/2010 FireCat Review

  1. #11
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    Barry- Thanks for the cam info !
    I knew about the camera focus issue, just was rushing things cuz I had to get to work that morning and those were the best outta the dozen I took...

  2. #12
    Senior Member Rockyhud's Avatar
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    Talking

    Barry,
    Thanks for all the feedback and advise. I took my bow to my dealer (Sportsman's Warehouse) and let them check it out. They agreed the cam lean was minimal while at rest and noticeable at full draw, particularly the top cam. It isn't cutting my servings so they weren't sure if Martin would approved changing all these parts or not. Mike, in the pro shop there, advised me to go with what you advise, so it sounds like I need to talk with Joel to see what he says.

    If you have time, the only question (of the many I listed) that you didn't get to was about the draw cycle. I've always had some issue with the end being pretty abrupt and causing my arrow to bounce on (and sometimes off) the fork of my rest if I pull into the wall to quick and firm. Is there any difference in this part of the draw cycle between the old and new cams that you've noticed?
    08/12 Martin Firecat Pro-X (29" DL, 66# DW), Nitro 3 cams, home-made torque reducing cable guard rod, new VEMs, DS Advantage/HHA Pro-5519 front sight, No-Peep Sight Eliminator, Limb-Driver arrow rest, B-Stinger stabilizer, custom lower & upper STS with offset stops, G5 Head-Loc quiver on custom mounting bracket. Gold Tip Velocity XT300 arrows with Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes and Grizzly single-bevel broadheads, 498 grains at 262 fps (22% FOC)

  3. #13
    Super Moderator bfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyhud View Post
    Barry,
    Thanks for all the feedback and advise. I took my bow to my dealer (Sportsman's Warehouse) and let them check it out. They agreed the cam lean was minimal while at rest and noticeable at full draw, particularly the top cam. It isn't cutting my servings so they weren't sure if Martin would approved changing all these parts or not. Mike, in the pro shop there, advised me to go with what you advise, so it sounds like I need to talk with Joel to see what he says.

    If you have time, the only question (of the many I listed) that you didn't get to was about the draw cycle. I've always had some issue with the end being pretty abrupt and causing my arrow to bounce on (and sometimes off) the fork of my rest if I pull into the wall to quick and firm. Is there any difference in this part of the draw cycle between the old and new cams that you've noticed?
    Rock,

    I didn't notice any particular difference in the draw cycle on mine. No to pick on you too badly, but your situation is, too me, typical of having too much draw weight and/or a draw length that is too long. The "bump" just before the rollover is quite common these days with speed cams.

    My suggestion would be to turn the limbs down one turn (3#) and see if it helps. I know it does me. Give up a little bit of performance for greater comfort. It really is worth it. I know, for me, shooting 3D, my scores are not much difference between a bow shooting near 300 fps and one shooting 260 fps. The slowerbow I can just draw and aim more smoothly which just helps my whole shot sequence. I've gotten so picky about it that I can actually feel a half turn on the limbs.

    Give it a try.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Rockyhud's Avatar
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    Barry,

    Thanks again for the feedback and advise. I suspected the "bump" was a characteristic of aggressive/speed cams as I've seen the force draw curve of the Firecat and some other fast hunting bows and was aware of the quick drop at the end of the draw cycle.

    I have tried shooting at lower DW and shorter DL but it really didn't change anything. More recently I've been paying more attention to how quick I approach the wall and try to slow down a little and that helps. Today I also made a small adjustment to my Limb Driver rest spring so it doesn't force and hold up the fork quite as strong - the combination of this and slowing down seems to have helped with the arrow bounce.

    Steve
    08/12 Martin Firecat Pro-X (29" DL, 66# DW), Nitro 3 cams, home-made torque reducing cable guard rod, new VEMs, DS Advantage/HHA Pro-5519 front sight, No-Peep Sight Eliminator, Limb-Driver arrow rest, B-Stinger stabilizer, custom lower & upper STS with offset stops, G5 Head-Loc quiver on custom mounting bracket. Gold Tip Velocity XT300 arrows with Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes and Grizzly single-bevel broadheads, 498 grains at 262 fps (22% FOC)

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    Super Moderator bfisher's Avatar
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    I don't have a link, but Nuts&Bolts over on AT has a thread about adjusting the cams to get rid of or at least ease the bump we're talking about. Might be worth looking into.

    I have a feeling it might entail using a longer draw length setting and setting the draw stop short. I really need to look this up myself---when I get time.
    If You're Not Living on the Edge You're Taking Up Too Much Space
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
    I have a feeling it might entail using a longer draw length setting and setting the draw stop short. I really need to look this up myself---when I get time.
    thats exactly what you have to do. took me awhile to get my firecat where i wanted it, but now i love it, wasnt too crazy about it before when id get to the last few inches of the draw it would almost be like something was wrong the hump was so big. also when i was going to let down the arrow without firing, it was as if i had to push my hand forward 1/2 to get the string to move, instead of just relaxing my arm muscles. no...i really didnt like it.


    just move your modules to next 1/2" or 1" longer position (go 1/2" first) and move the draw stop a little at a time(towards the minus sign on the bottom cam), a little goes a long way, if you get it wrong you'll know it because it'll be like trying to hold back a rosie odonnell from a free twinky bar. i also took a lead pencil and marked where my starting point was on the draw stop. that way if i didnt like my results, i could go back to the orginal position and as always, take a photo of your bow before moving anything around, i find it easier to look at a photo to return my settings back to where they were if my tinkering results were not up to par.
    Last edited by ezbite; 01-04-2010 at 10:11 AM.

  7. #17
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    Here is the link to Nuts&Bolts post about the CAT cam adjustment.
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1074031

  8. #18
    Senior Member Rockyhud's Avatar
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    That's a good one to read. I read the thread that Gary Studt (gjstudt) and others wrote on optimizing the CAT cam, end to end, and got some improvement in the feel of my cams (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=626601). This was very informative.

    When I first got my bow the feeling was like ezbite described - almost had to push the string to let down. I've adjusted the modules and draw stops to where my let-off is less and now I can relax my arm some and it begins, although still pretty quickly, to let down. I've been able to improve (or lessen somewhat) the feel of the hump when the cams roll over by following the advise in the AT thread but like Barry said, this is also due to speed cams and their aggressive design. I also adjusted the spring loading of my Limb Driver rest so it doesn't force the fork up quite as strong and that also seemed to help some.

    I've used the advise from Gary's thread to get it where it is today, but I'm sure willing to try more so I'm going to see if the tuning advise from nuts&bolts (Alan) can help even more. I'll be back with more once I've had a chance to use nuts&bolts tuning advise. Hopefully I can get that last bit of undesirable bump gone and fall in love with my Firecat all over again.
    08/12 Martin Firecat Pro-X (29" DL, 66# DW), Nitro 3 cams, home-made torque reducing cable guard rod, new VEMs, DS Advantage/HHA Pro-5519 front sight, No-Peep Sight Eliminator, Limb-Driver arrow rest, B-Stinger stabilizer, custom lower & upper STS with offset stops, G5 Head-Loc quiver on custom mounting bracket. Gold Tip Velocity XT300 arrows with Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes and Grizzly single-bevel broadheads, 498 grains at 262 fps (22% FOC)

  9. #19
    Senior Member Rockyhud's Avatar
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    So, I had another look at my cam positions last night. While I have the cams wrapped up pretty tight, with a small cable to post gap on both cams, per the tuning advise in the AT links, I also noticed the "timing holes" are not as close to the face of the limbs as shown in nut&bolts tuning advise. I also reread the tuning post from gjstudt and discovered the cable gap on my top cam is less than the bottom cam - just to opposite as he recommended.

    I also reviewed some other photos he posted of his cams and cables at full draw. I noticed his cables laying close to the flat length of his modules much more so than mine do currently which makes me think I still have some tuning to do to minimize the bump and get the most performance yet.

    So, I'm going to put a few twists in the string then adjust the cables afterward to get the timing holes positioned closer AND get the gap between the cables and cam posts set correctly and see show that feels. I'll update this thread with my results afterward. Hopefully all this great tuning info will help others as well.
    08/12 Martin Firecat Pro-X (29" DL, 66# DW), Nitro 3 cams, home-made torque reducing cable guard rod, new VEMs, DS Advantage/HHA Pro-5519 front sight, No-Peep Sight Eliminator, Limb-Driver arrow rest, B-Stinger stabilizer, custom lower & upper STS with offset stops, G5 Head-Loc quiver on custom mounting bracket. Gold Tip Velocity XT300 arrows with Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes and Grizzly single-bevel broadheads, 498 grains at 262 fps (22% FOC)

  10. #20
    Senior Member Rockyhud's Avatar
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    Alright, I'm back after making more adjustments and other things. This was quite a process - a check it out, make adjustments and check it out again process through several iterations.

    First, I twisted the string a few more turns, checked the bottom cam timing hole position and the gaps between the cables and cam posts, then finding the gaps not closed enough, twisted the cables and checked everything again. After doing this a few times I'd take the bow in hand and with arrow on rest, come to full draw. If it didn't feel right, such as too much bump or not enough let-off, I'd adjust the draw stop and draw back again, checking how it felt and if the arrow bounced on the rest.

    I also checked A-to-A several times in the process, taking note that this was reducing little by little from a starting point of 32-1/2" to eventually 32-3/16". The cable gaps bounced around some, usually settling in the .08" range.

    After running through this sequence several times and still not quite getting the feel and other things quite what I was looking for I decided to check the limbs bolts and see if they had the same number of turns to the point of bottoming out the limbs against the riser. They were off some (a little more than 1/2 turn difference between top and bottom) so I started with both fully bottomed out and turned them out equally from there. After turning them both out 2-1/2 turns I checked all measurements, including tiller and brace height this time, again. I figured that should get it back close to the 63 lbs draw weight I prefer and had before.

    Just to satisfy my curiosity I tried drawing the bow while the limbs were bottomed out, presumably at 70 lbs. Wow, what a difference in effort to do that. I can see how this bow could spit arrows out at or near IPO speeds at that DW setting, there was that much difference in drawing back.

    Tiller was about 1/16" different between top and bottom and brace height was just slightly less than 7". A-to-A was measured on both side of the cams with one side being 32-1/4" and the other side 32-5/64". The cable gaps were about .085" for top and .080" for bottom. The timing hole position (edge of the hole) wound up being about 1/8" away from the limb face.

    So, the moment of truth again. I nocked an arrow and drew back. To my pleasant surprise the bump was very noticeably reduced and there was no perceived bounce of the arrow on the rest. I did this several more times to make sure it wasn't just the way I drew back that fist time. Each time the arrow simply came up into firing position and remained solidly in the bottom of the rest fork. The let-off is definitely less that 80% but the bow holds nicely and I can let down quite easily by slightly relaxing my drawing arm.

    The next test will be shooting outside. It turned real cold here today - it's 4-degrees and windy now - but this is supposed to move out fairly quickly and get back into the mid-40s by the weekend. I don't have a chronograph so I'll have to guess at any change in speed based on point of impact compared to what it was before. The last time I shot through a chronograph it was consistently shooting 290 fps with my 390-gn CX Maxima 350s with Blazer vanes and 100-gn points.

    I'm anxious to see how it performs. If it shows no change in speed/point of impact and the bow performs well - no increase in noise or vibes, etc., and I continue liking the draw cycle - I think I can stick a fork in it and call it done. I'll be back to update this thread after I get to shoot outside.
    08/12 Martin Firecat Pro-X (29" DL, 66# DW), Nitro 3 cams, home-made torque reducing cable guard rod, new VEMs, DS Advantage/HHA Pro-5519 front sight, No-Peep Sight Eliminator, Limb-Driver arrow rest, B-Stinger stabilizer, custom lower & upper STS with offset stops, G5 Head-Loc quiver on custom mounting bracket. Gold Tip Velocity XT300 arrows with Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes and Grizzly single-bevel broadheads, 498 grains at 262 fps (22% FOC)

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