Looking for new limbs...

[Compounded]

You can try what Simon is saying here if you want to take the time. Personally I'd recommend taking the time just to learn how to do this stuff. And as long as you're playing try swapping thelimbs top to bottom when you put it back together.

This is all part of the learning curve. I've been shooting roughly three months now and am not happy with the way I have to learn the pathomechanics of a compound... I'll get there though.

Thanks for all the input. I'll keep you all posted on what the outcome is. (right now i want to mangle the bow "Stupid piece of (muffled words)".

P.S. If you want to not have the problems i have, learn from my mistake: DO NOT let anyone draw your bow without an arrow in it unless you know they can afford to buy you are new one. Sheesh, big mistake!

[Montalaar]

This is all part of the learning curve. I've been shooting roughly three months now and am not happy with the way I have to learn the pathomechanics of a compound... I'll get there though.

Thanks for all the input. I'll keep you all posted on what the outcome is. (right now i want to mangle the bow "Stupid piece of (muffled words)".

P.S. If you want to not have the problems i have, learn from my mistake: DO NOT let anyone draw your bow without an arrow in it unless you know they can afford to buy you are new one. Sheesh, big mistake!

I agree. See also your Martin manual for this kind of advice. Somewhere in this manual are the ten or fifteen rules of 'NEVER DO TO YOUR BOW'.

[Destroyer]

right now i want to mangle the bow "Stupid piece of (muffled words)".

Lol! It does it to you some time. Eventually you learn not to 'destroy' things.

[copterdoc]

...The lean isn't only in the cam. As i draw the bow and watch the cam roll over, the limb twists. The twist isn't horrendous, though it is noticeable. As i said earlier the guys at the shop changed the way the the cables run through the guard system to counteract the lean, though it's still present.
When i look down the limb from the front, there is an obliquity to it relative to the limb bolt. It's very slight, only 2 or 3 degrees.
I'm apprehensive about ordering new limbs before I know exactly what the issue is.

What you describe above, is 100% normal for any bow, that uses cams with cable tracks on only one side of the string track. The below quote, is from a post I made on AT, explaining what cam lean is caused by.

....The way you calculate the TOTAL mechanical advantage of the cam, is by measuring the ratio of string/fed-to-cable/reeled.

All cams transmit load through the axles.

The load is always applied on the plane of the cable/string. So, in order to find the starting and stopping points, you need to "draw a line" from the string, to the axle at 90 degrees to the plane of the string.

Mark the location at that point on the string, and draw the bow back with a draw board. Repeat the same measurement at full draw and measure the distance between the two marks. The difference in ATA from brace to full draw, tells you how much cable was reeled in. That will give you the total ratio of mechanical advantage.

That ratio, will be the inverse of the peak draw weight-to-peak limb load. For most modern bows, the cams feed out 3-4 inches of string, for every inch of cable reeled in. That means a 70# bow, has about 245# of total limb load at full draw.

Now, that seems like a lot, but it doesn't even factor in let-off!

We all want let-off right? Well, everything you take from the string, goes right to the cables. If you have 80% let-off, that means that while the string is under 15# of load, the cables are under 230!

At brace, they were all at about the same amount of load. At full draw, the situation changed a bit didn't it?

In order to provide a 30" draw length, a short ATA bow needs to feed out more string, than a long ATA bow does. However, since the total limb compression is limited by the amount of deflection the limbs can withstand, the cams can't be made to reel in 3 extra inches of cable.

That is why short ATA bows, are harder to tune. The popularity of them has increased over the last 10 years, and with it, the cam lean "phenomenon", has been realized.

The only way to solve the problem, is to use cams with an odd number of tracks, or attachment points.

3, or 5 track cams, can maintain lateral balance during the entire draw cycle, including let-off. 2, or 4 track cams, cannot. It is impossible.

When you add the fact that the cable guard itself exacerbates the problem, and adds to the issue by not allowing the cables to pull the limb tips directly at each other, you might possibly realize why these bows are so hard to tune!

There is only one real solution.

You have to shoot the arrow, through the cables.

You have to shoot the arrow, through the cables.

You have to shoot the arrow, through the %$@#$# cables!

[Compounded]

What you describe above, is 100% normal for any bow, that uses cams with cable tracks on only one side of the string track. The below quote, is from a post I made on AT, explaining what cam lean is caused by.

As I said earlier in this thread, the lean was extreme enough to allow the cable to flick out of the module. That I do not think is normal for any compound bow.

Secondly, the lean was not present before the "issue" arose.

[copterdoc]

..Secondly, the lean was not present before the "issue" arose.

I don't know about THE lean, but there absolutely WAS lean present before the dry fire!

EVERY SINGLE COMPOUND BOW with an offset cable guard, has cam lean at some point during the draw cycle. If you adjust it out at full draw, the cams will lean at brace. If you adjust it out at brace, they will lean at full draw. This isn't a question of whether these bows have cam lean or not. They ALL have it! It's only a question of how severe it is.

As far as the cable derailment is concerned.....Well that's a different story. Even the bows with the most severe amounts of cam lean, still hang on to their cables!

I think they screwed up the install, more than they are admitting to.

[Destroyer]

It's only a question of how severe it is.

The only 'lean' we are interested in is severe. Saying all cams have lean is pretty silly, like asking how long is a piece of string? How high is up?

All I do is get them looking square at rest and full draw and the bow usually tunes well.

the lean was not present before the "issue" arose.

Dry firing does bad things to a bow sometimes.

I think they screwed up the install, more than they are admitting to.

Could be right.

[copterdoc]

The only 'lean' we are interested in is severe. Saying all cams have lean is pretty silly, like asking how long is a piece of string? How high is up?

To me, it's only "silly" when somebody finally realizes their bow has cam lean and wants the manufacturer to suddenly fix it.

VERY FEW archers, even realize that their bow's cams lean at full draw. They just shoot the bow.

When something happens that draws their attention to the fact that their cams are leaning and their limbs are twisting, suddenly it's an emergency and they think they have the "only" bow in the world that does this.

The real problem with cam lean, is that the consumer is insisting on it's occurrence. It's not deliberate. They just don't understand what causes it.

They believe that they can have a bow that has the cables pulled 2" over to one side of the limbs and perfectly straight cams, from brace, to full draw.

They demand the impossible. When they start to discover the truth, they complain. They catch a glimpse of the issue, and look for a way to cover it up. They are "demanding" that the bow companies perform magic.

[Montalaar]

Guys, please come down.

[Compounded]

I don't know about THE lean, but there absolutely WAS lean present before the dry fire!

Not arguing with you on this, mate. Just that the lean in my bow is due to more than the lateral pull the cables exert.

Your spending far too much energy on a moot argument, drop it.