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Thread: Question in arrow leveling ?

  1. #11
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    I too am a rookie and I ask rookie questions.

    Why is it called a Berger hole, is there some significance?

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    Senior Member bfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLN1963 View Post
    I too am a rookie and I ask rookie questions.

    Why is it called a Berger hole, is there some significance?
    Man, now you asked a question I can answer, but be ready for some history.

    It kind of started back before compunds came on the scene. Recurves were the norm and risers were not machined or cut past center so we used stcick-on arrow rests such as Flipper rests. To compensate for archer's paradox we would build up the side plate with leather pads or some other stick-on material.

    So in the early 70's this guy called Vic Berger came up with a better idea than building up the side plate. It was called a Berger Button, commonly called a cushion plunger. To was adjustable for both the amount of centershot needed to reduce archer's paradox and spring tension for fine tuning the same. The only problem was that it was (is) threaded so risers needed to be drilled and threaded to accept it, which every manufacturer of bows ended up doing.

    The drilling and thread pattern became an AMO standard that all rests and mounting bolts have adopted. Not too many people use cushion plngers these days, but that doesn't mean they don't work. What they did they did well, and still do. Newer generations of shooters don't know about these things row wouldn't want to use them anyway because they are too "outdated".

    OK, so that is where the term Berger holes came from.
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  3. #13
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    Thanks! Now I know the rest of the story!

    Have a great night.

  4. #14
    SonnyThomas
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    Default Question in arrow leveling ?

    Good job, bfisher. Should you wish Lancaster's catalog a selection of Berger buttons and plungers. Some are fairly cheap, nylon screw. Some are pricey enough for one to say; "I can buy a good arrow rest for that price!"

    Story; Just this past summer I had a basket case old Pearson target bow come in. And I do mean basket case, in pieces. Luckily there was a old Pearson hanging in the back room to copy from. Got it together, finally. The nylon Berger button was virtually melted in the riser and it was drill time and patience to get it out. The old worn sticker had 37 pounds of draw weight. Odd, but this was a ordered bow way back when people were selective, I guess. I put a new one in and gave it a try. About 3 or 4 adjustments of the Berger button and the old bow was nailing just about everything I wanted. Well, not great, but good enough I felt real, real good. And I hadn't shot fingers for target shooting in long while. I bow fish with fingers every so often - Picture in here somewhere. The owner came in and I asked him what he was going to do with it. A "I don't know" and I asked what he wanted for it. $25 later and I possessed one sweet little blue wheel bow with white limbs. And then I made a mistake and told of having this bow. It was snatched up just as fast I had snatched it up. Another bow I wish I had kept was gone.

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    Senior Member alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
    Man, now you asked a question I can answer, but be ready for some history.

    It kind of started back before compunds came on the scene. Recurves were the norm and risers were not machined or cut past center so we used stcick-on arrow rests such as Flipper rests. To compensate for archer's paradox we would build up the side plate with leather pads or some other stick-on material.

    So in the early 70's this guy called Vic Berger came up with a better idea than building up the side plate. It was called a Berger Button, commonly called a cushion plunger. To was adjustable for both the amount of centershot needed to reduce archer's paradox and spring tension for fine tuning the same. The only problem was that it was (is) threaded so risers needed to be drilled and threaded to accept it, which every manufacturer of bows ended up doing.

    The drilling and thread pattern became an AMO standard that all rests and mounting bolts have adopted. Not too many people use cushion plngers these days, but that doesn't mean they don't work. What they did they did well, and still do. Newer generations of shooters don't know about these things row wouldn't want to use them anyway because they are too "outdated".

    OK, so that is where the term Berger holes came from.
    Thanks for the history lesson, Barry! That was something i always wondered about but never asked. But now i'll ask why the holes are 2?
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    Senior Member elkslayer4x5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alex View Post
    Thanks for the history lesson, Barry! That was something i always wondered about but never asked. But now i'll ask why the holes are 2?
    For greater adjustment range of your rest.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member bfisher's Avatar
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    Originally, way back when, as I always say, bows only had one hole drilled for the plunger and normally about in the center of the riser as viewed from the side. Then somewhere along in time somebody started drilling and tapping two holes. I don't know why, but I have a sneaking suspicion this came about to help lock in an overdraw so it couldn't tilt. Those things served a purpose too, but were often a royal PITA. And now, with the advent of lighter carbon arrows overdraws have gone the way of the dinosaur. Of course two holes allows for a bit more adjustment of today's rests, but it really isn't necessary. If you only had oen hole then you mount a rest and cut arrows to a necessary length and tune accordingly. Still, any rest I mount is done so with two bolts just for security. The only problem I've ever encounterd doing this is that the holes are close nough that one bolt head often overlaps the other. No big deal.
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    Senior Member alex's Avatar
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    Thank you both for the info!
    2008 Martin MOAB - 45-60#, set at about 51-53# / 55#" Perfect Line" compound/ 55# Mongol horsebow/ 45# "Perfect Line" takedown recurve/ 45# Bearpaw Grizzly hunter recurve/ 55# Samick Longbow Cheetah ... and several homemade bows

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    Im a little new to but i have a firecat 400 and a ripcord rest in order to get the fork of the rest to sit flush with the arrow shelf my arrow is leveld just across the top of the holes and shoots awesome.... Just the way it worked out for tuning also.

  10. #20
    Senior Member bfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sway View Post
    Im a little new to but i have a firecat 400 and a ripcord rest in order to get the fork of the rest to sit flush with the arrow shelf my arrow is leveld just across the top of the holes and shoots awesome.... Just the way it worked out for tuning also.
    OK, so a little more history lesson. Most people swear that the arrow has to bisect the Berger holes to make the bow tuneable. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

    Back in the old days (again) the deepest part of the grip was in the physical center of the bow. Therefore the rest had to be mounted about 2" above the center of the bow. This wasn't a big issue as you just tuned the bow accordingly, mostly by playing with the tiller. As a norm tiller was adjusted about 1/8" less on the bottom limb as compared to the top limb.

    I don't know quite when it came about or who started it, but the grip was moved down about 1 1/2" to move the rest closer to the center of the bow. OK, well and good, but this still did not move the rest clear to the center. On most bows it is the shelf that is centered so the rest is still above center.
    Again, you just tune the bow accordingly. No big deal.

    I shot a lot of these older bows as I've been shooting compounds for 38 years now. IMO older bows balanced much better back then and were not top heavy like they are today. They just felt better in the hand. However, I don't design and sell bows so who am I to judge. I just know what they felt like.

    One note about tiller tuning. To get that 1/8" difference only took about 1/2 turn difference to the limb adjustment. It doesn't work as well with parallel limbs due to the limb angle. The limbs don't tilt back near as much, but more toward each other. And the length of bows back then llowed for greater movement of the limbs for a given amount of adjustment. Risers were shorter and limbs were longer. Where it used to take about 1/2 turn it now takes about 2 turns or so which can throw the bow out of whack so it's not worth playing around with. This is just my opinion, of course.
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